Keys to Building a Dynasty

st thomas · 01-19-2021, 01:29 PM

Mike Thomas was hurt he tried . He’s going to have surgery he will be back with a different QB a whole new offense is about to be born. Brees was limited is a miracle he came back to play after those ribs. He felt every throw. We were handcuffed to let Drew finish it win or lose. I was so down like anyone else on here but let’s move on, now unless the nfl let’s Drew take some roids he’s cooked.

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BakoSaint · 01-19-2021, 11:46 PM

Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1.

I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make.

lee909 · 01-20-2021, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1.

I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make.

. Wrong thread

FinSaint · 01-20-2021, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1.

I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make.

You are going against the grain with that opinion of having a dominant receiver being less desirable for the development of a young QB than a bunch of ok guys.

Most "experts" state that a star receiver will help with the development of a young QB, because they can build their confidence through that connection. Losing your confidence is probably one of the biggest reasons why some young QBs never make it and become "busts."

Personally, I feel a lot more confident in bringing in a young QB into the system being a success with Kamara and Thomas than bringing him into a one without them.

Naturally, a good O-line is the biggest friend of a QB - young or old.

And when it comes to New England - one has to take into consideration that the other teams in that division have been dumpster fires until very recently, and that NE has been very sound defensively in most years during this run of theirs. All of these things take pressure of the offense too, since they probably have been able to play with the lead more often than not.

Rugby Saint II · 01-24-2021, 04:25 PM

Every young QB needs a good O-line to protect him along with a good ground game and a WR to become his go to guy. We've got that. Oh, and we have a decent defense to help him out.

BakoSaint · 01-25-2021, 04:33 PM

I think that if having an absolutely dominant #1 receiver rather than an ensemble cast was a great way to develop a young QB we would be looking at football in this millenium and saying the great QBs were Matt Stafford with having Calvin Johnson, Matt Ryan with having Julio Jones, David Carr having Andre Johnson, Matt Leinart having Larry Fitzgerald and Anquon Boldin, Daunte Culpepper having Randy Moss, Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray getting elite #1 wide receivers their second year, etc. Instead we have great QBs like Brady coming up with no super elite receivers, Manning developing alongside Harrison not with Harrison as a star or super high draft pick in place, Brees developing alongside Colston in New Orleans, Roetlisberger developing alongside a changing cast of recievers who only became elite with his help, Wilson lacking star receivers until recently, Rodgers developing with some good receivers but not an absolute beast early in his career. To be great, a QB has to learn to go through their progressions, throw into a tight window, etc and get over their college days which are often coming from a big program playing most games against weaker opponents with their star receiver wide open. If a QB has a receiver early in their NFL career who is always open or catches everything and they can just throw it up for grabs to their first read every other down, they may rack up stats that look encouraging and help their GM justify the cost of acquiring both the QB and receiver, but they often fail to develop over time into true champions. That is my opinion. Maholmes may be the exception but Hill is the ultimate deep threat and Maholmes has the big arm and KC has always had a wide cast of other weapons opening up the field.

Originally Posted by FinSaint

You are going against the grain with that opinion of having a dominant receiver being less desirable for the development of a young QB than a bunch of ok guys.

Most "experts" state that a star receiver will help with the development of a young QB, because they can build their confidence through that connection. Losing your confidence is probably one of the biggest reasons why some young QBs never make it and become "busts."

Personally, I feel a lot more confident in bringing in a young QB into the system being a success with Kamara and Thomas than bringing him into a one without them.

Naturally, a good O-line is the biggest friend of a QB - young or old.

And when it comes to New England - one has to take into consideration that the other teams in that division have been dumpster fires until very recently, and that NE has been very sound defensively in most years during this run of theirs. All of these things take pressure of the offense too, since they probably have been able to play with the lead more often than not.

TheOak · 01-26-2021, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by lee909

I said most of last summer to not sign Kamara
Love the guy as a player but there is just no reason to pay a RB that sort of money, especially of they are not a 300 carry,franchise carrying RB. Even more so when you are paying a franchise QB and WR money.

Kamara had 83 receptions and 756 yards receiving in 2021 (Both stats are team leading)

Define Runningback.

Also why do WR get paid more than RB? Touch down potential? Guess who lead the whole league in TDs.. Kamara

FinSaint · 01-26-2021, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

I think..

There are a lot of things to nitpick in that wall of text, but I'll just counter with what happened this year with the development of Josh Allen after he got a legit #1 receiver in Diggs.

Rsanders24 · 01-26-2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Kamara had 83 receptions and 756 yards receiving in 2021 (Both stats are team leading)

Define Runningback.

+1

AK is a top 10 offensive player in the league, probably top 5. He is bot just a RB. Simply look at his body of work with teams knowing he is the main target this season. He is a player that never has to come off the field unlike Henry who is not a 3rd down back. If you think he can’t be a 1000 yard rusher, you are sadly mistaken.

Why would you limit a player of his caliber to simply running the ball? You see Tyreek Hill and Mecole Hardman running with the ball a lot as well since they are simply dangerous with the ball in their hands.

I think the AK deal was great. We basically got a good WR and a good RB as a 2 for 1 deal. Look at the attention he received on that trick play to Smith.

TheOak · 01-26-2021, 10:39 AM

Constructive criticism: I imagined Loomis reading this and trying to make heads or tales and design an effective strategy from it. This isn't to discourage you from ideas it is more to help examine your ideas for feasibility. Being critical of our own ideas helps us ensure they can withstand some scrutiny.

At a very high level every point is a 'do not' or a 'stop'. That is a very good way to get the person you are trying to help, to shut down. Perhaps a more palatable delivery is "instead of x, why not try y"... This approach makes sure you are offering a Y and not just shooting things down.

Tanking... We do not improve by stopping something we do not do. When you 'say just to say' you create a potential point of debate that provides zero value.

You use the Patriots as an example but our regular season record has been right there with the Patriots 4 of the last 5 seasons. You want to blow up an entire program for 1 season 5 years ago?

A lot of your statements are based on the premise that it doesn't win a SB (Kamara as an example). Then you go on to say that trading Graham and Cook paid off but the Cook/Grahm trades did not pay off based on the criteria you set of winning a SB. Furthermore, practically everything you say that we should be doing is being done by a team in the league that doesn't have consecutive winning seasons or win a SB.

You say dont pay big unless you KNOW you have a top 5 QB. Top x is a highly debated topic every year, decade, etc.. You have set a requirement with no measurable. There is a market for QB and the price is set by the market, not paying $25M for someone the caliber of Deshaun Watson is precisely how you stay with mediocre talent. Meanwhile Josh Allen falls into this year top 5 QB TD stats and you would pay him $25M.

You say that a Championship is more important than selling jerseys... While both generate revenue and everyone wants to win a championship, one has happened once in 54 years the other gets players paid, keeps the lights on, and employees family's fed. Never lose sight that the NFL is a business first, entertainment second, and sport third.

Avoid big egos and trouble makers... Have you ever managed any number of men at any level LOL... You can not avoid this, you learn to manage it or you ignore it and it eats your team/group from the inside out.

Your simple formula: It is more of a house of card to be brutally honest. That is not exactly a formula since nothing in it solves each issue. Also simplicity does not equate to execute-ability. You have a list of 7 subjects that all have to go perfectly in order to not crash another. Each one of those items is by itself a monumental task in a season.

This is the hard question... How do you intentionally stay healthy? Wouldn't all teams do it if it were achievable? A season is a war of attrition and injury is what blows up most of the other ideas in your list.

You put a lot of thought and typing into that, I figured I would give an equal effort in return. I know it wasn't as uplifting as "Cool!!" but thats just not how i am wired

.

01-19-2021, 01:29 PM	#21
st thomas Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: lafayette Posts: 7,753	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Mike Thomas was hurt he tried . He’s going to have surgery he will be back with a different QB a whole new offense is about to be born. Brees was limited is a miracle he came back to play after those ribs. He felt every throw. We were handcuffed to let Drew finish it win or lose. I was so down like anyone else on here but let’s move on, now unless the nfl let’s Drew take some roids he’s cooked. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

01-19-2021, 11:46 PM	#22
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,129	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1. I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,129

01-20-2021, 02:29 AM	#23
lee909 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,802 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Originally Posted by BakoSaint Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1. I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make. . Wrong thread

01-20-2021, 03:27 AM	#24
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Originally Posted by BakoSaint Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1. I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make. You are going against the grain with that opinion of having a dominant receiver being less desirable for the development of a young QB than a bunch of ok guys. Most "experts" state that a star receiver will help with the development of a young QB, because they can build their confidence through that connection. Losing your confidence is probably one of the biggest reasons why some young QBs never make it and become "busts." Personally, I feel a lot more confident in bringing in a young QB into the system being a success with Kamara and Thomas than bringing him into a one without them. Naturally, a good O-line is the biggest friend of a QB - young or old. And when it comes to New England - one has to take into consideration that the other teams in that division have been dumpster fires until very recently, and that NE has been very sound defensively in most years during this run of theirs. All of these things take pressure of the offense too, since they probably have been able to play with the lead more often than not. Rugby Saint II, K Major and rezburna like this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

01-24-2021, 04:25 PM	#25
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,044	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Every young QB needs a good O-line to protect him along with a good ground game and a WR to become his go to guy. We've got that. Oh, and we have a decent defense to help him out.

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01-25-2021, 04:33 PM	#26
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,129	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty I think that if having an absolutely dominant #1 receiver rather than an ensemble cast was a great way to develop a young QB we would be looking at football in this millenium and saying the great QBs were Matt Stafford with having Calvin Johnson, Matt Ryan with having Julio Jones, David Carr having Andre Johnson, Matt Leinart having Larry Fitzgerald and Anquon Boldin, Daunte Culpepper having Randy Moss, Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray getting elite #1 wide receivers their second year, etc. Instead we have great QBs like Brady coming up with no super elite receivers, Manning developing alongside Harrison not with Harrison as a star or super high draft pick in place, Brees developing alongside Colston in New Orleans, Roetlisberger developing alongside a changing cast of recievers who only became elite with his help, Wilson lacking star receivers until recently, Rodgers developing with some good receivers but not an absolute beast early in his career. To be great, a QB has to learn to go through their progressions, throw into a tight window, etc and get over their college days which are often coming from a big program playing most games against weaker opponents with their star receiver wide open. If a QB has a receiver early in their NFL career who is always open or catches everything and they can just throw it up for grabs to their first read every other down, they may rack up stats that look encouraging and help their GM justify the cost of acquiring both the QB and receiver, but they often fail to develop over time into true champions. That is my opinion. Maholmes may be the exception but Hill is the ultimate deep threat and Maholmes has the big arm and KC has always had a wide cast of other weapons opening up the field. Originally Posted by FinSaint You are going against the grain with that opinion of having a dominant receiver being less desirable for the development of a young QB than a bunch of ok guys. Most "experts" state that a star receiver will help with the development of a young QB, because they can build their confidence through that connection. Losing your confidence is probably one of the biggest reasons why some young QBs never make it and become "busts." Personally, I feel a lot more confident in bringing in a young QB into the system being a success with Kamara and Thomas than bringing him into a one without them. Naturally, a good O-line is the biggest friend of a QB - young or old. And when it comes to New England - one has to take into consideration that the other teams in that division have been dumpster fires until very recently, and that NE has been very sound defensively in most years during this run of theirs. All of these things take pressure of the offense too, since they probably have been able to play with the lead more often than not.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,129

01-26-2021, 06:17 AM	#27
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Originally Posted by lee909 I said most of last summer to not sign Kamara Love the guy as a player but there is just no reason to pay a RB that sort of money, especially of they are not a 300 carry,franchise carrying RB. Even more so when you are paying a franchise QB and WR money. Kamara had 83 receptions and 756 yards receiving in 2021 (Both stats are team leading) Define Runningback. Also why do WR get paid more than RB? Touch down potential? Guess who lead the whole league in TDs.. Kamara Rsanders24 likes this.
	Last edited by TheOak; 01-26-2021 at 09:35 AM..

01-26-2021, 06:50 AM	#28
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Originally Posted by BakoSaint I think.. There are a lot of things to nitpick in that wall of text, but I'll just counter with what happened this year with the development of Josh Allen after he got a legit #1 receiver in Diggs. Rsanders24 and K Major like this.

01-26-2021, 09:18 AM	#29
Rsanders24 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Baton Rouge, LA. Posts: 1,482	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Originally Posted by TheOak Kamara had 83 receptions and 756 yards receiving in 2021 (Both stats are team leading) Define Runningback. +1 AK is a top 10 offensive player in the league, probably top 5. He is bot just a RB. Simply look at his body of work with teams knowing he is the main target this season. He is a player that never has to come off the field unlike Henry who is not a 3rd down back. If you think he can’t be a 1000 yard rusher, you are sadly mistaken. Why would you limit a player of his caliber to simply running the ball? You see Tyreek Hill and Mecole Hardman running with the ball a lot as well since they are simply dangerous with the ball in their hands. I think the AK deal was great. We basically got a good WR and a good RB as a 2 for 1 deal. Look at the attention he received on that trick play to Smith. K Major likes this.

01-26-2021, 10:39 AM	#30
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty Constructive criticism: I imagined Loomis reading this and trying to make heads or tales and design an effective strategy from it. This isn't to discourage you from ideas it is more to help examine your ideas for feasibility. Being critical of our own ideas helps us ensure they can withstand some scrutiny. At a very high level every point is a 'do not' or a 'stop'. That is a very good way to get the person you are trying to help, to shut down. Perhaps a more palatable delivery is "instead of x, why not try y"... This approach makes sure you are offering a Y and not just shooting things down. Tanking... We do not improve by stopping something we do not do. When you 'say just to say' you create a potential point of debate that provides zero value. You use the Patriots as an example but our regular season record has been right there with the Patriots 4 of the last 5 seasons. You want to blow up an entire program for 1 season 5 years ago? A lot of your statements are based on the premise that it doesn't win a SB (Kamara as an example). Then you go on to say that trading Graham and Cook paid off but the Cook/Grahm trades did not pay off based on the criteria you set of winning a SB. Furthermore, practically everything you say that we should be doing is being done by a team in the league that doesn't have consecutive winning seasons or win a SB. You say dont pay big unless you KNOW you have a top 5 QB. Top x is a highly debated topic every year, decade, etc.. You have set a requirement with no measurable. There is a market for QB and the price is set by the market, not paying $25M for someone the caliber of Deshaun Watson is precisely how you stay with mediocre talent. Meanwhile Josh Allen falls into this year top 5 QB TD stats and you would pay him $25M. You say that a Championship is more important than selling jerseys... While both generate revenue and everyone wants to win a championship, one has happened once in 54 years the other gets players paid, keeps the lights on, and employees family's fed. Never lose sight that the NFL is a business first, entertainment second, and sport third. Avoid big egos and trouble makers... Have you ever managed any number of men at any level LOL... You can not avoid this, you learn to manage it or you ignore it and it eats your team/group from the inside out. Your simple formula: It is more of a house of card to be brutally honest. That is not exactly a formula since nothing in it solves each issue. Also simplicity does not equate to execute-ability. You have a list of 7 subjects that all have to go perfectly in order to not crash another. Each one of those items is by itself a monumental task in a season. This is the hard question... How do you intentionally stay healthy? Wouldn't all teams do it if it were achievable? A season is a war of attrition and injury is what blows up most of the other ideas in your list. You put a lot of thought and typing into that, I figured I would give an equal effort in return. I know it wasn't as uplifting as "Cool!!" but thats just not how i am wired .
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau