Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB

TheOak · 08-23-2022, 09:06 AM

I get that a lot of fans believe preseason is useless but there are some that see systemic value. Especially with a new head coach.

Repeatedly pointing out that the starters are not on the field is irrelevant in many regards... mostly because your only reply is what everyone here already knows. They all practice together and it is extremely rare that they do not share common discipline characteristics because of that. If your third string has issues with penalties and ball control, there is a high probability your first string has issues as well. Same position coach, same fundamentals being taught or ignored.

Skill has little to do with fundamentals.. in 2021 Dak Prescott had 15 fumbles, Kyler Murray had 13, Josh Allen had 9, all three in that seasons top 10 QBs. .

For those that keep mumbling that the starters aren't out there so it doesn't matter... Remember that the next time you see a starter limping off the field and say "next guy up"... Because it will matter then.

AsylumGuido · 08-23-2022, 09:38 AM

It's not only fans that feel that preseason games have greatly, or to some completely, lost their value. I have heard several coaches and GM's saying the exact same thing pointing out that you get more out of a couple of dual practice sessions than out of all the preseason games combined when it comes to both evaluation and teaching. I have heard coaches say they can get 20-25 snaps against certain looks over a two day dual practice, while they may see the same looks four or five times in an entire preseason of games. There are several proponents in and around the league pushing for these dual practices as a replacement in part or whole for preseason games.

The main thing keeping them around is the revenue they generate for the league. Fans pay for the tickets and the players do not get paid for the games. Free income for the league. I for one would much rather watch a dual practice session for free than a preseason game with few if any starters for which I had to hand over the money. That said, I'll be in the stands Friday since I'm forced to purchase the ticket as part of the season ticket package and am going to be in NOLA anyway.

WW_Who_Dat · 08-23-2022, 09:48 AM

I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script.

SmashMouth · 08-23-2022, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat

I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script.

Ding ... Ding... Ding!

Therein lies the rub. It's a chance for fans to see the progress and the upcoming talent. Charging regular season prices for preseason games is stealing. Concessions revenue should suffice. In others words, those preseason games should be free.

AsylumGuido · 08-23-2022, 10:20 AM

Charlie Weis was saying yesterday, I believe, on NFL Radio, that it's hard to evaluate much from a preseason game when you have a series with ones and a few twos facing the other team's twos and a sprinkling of rookies. Or later in the game when it's twos against what could arguably be fours on the other squad.

TheOak · 08-25-2022, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat

I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script.

One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks.

The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room.

Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap.

AsylumGuido · 08-25-2022, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks.

The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room.

Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap.

And THAT is the overwhelmingly primary reason why preseason games aren't going anywhere unless they can be replaced by additional regular season games. I think it is a forgone conclusion that before long we'll be down to two preseason and 18 regular season games.

AsylumGuido · 08-25-2022, 09:27 AM

I did learn something interesting while delving into the above. When the league added a 17th game any players with contracts greater than the minimum received an additional game check equal to 1/17th of their salary. This money did not count toward the salary cap but was handled in the following manner.

The money to pay for the additional game check will start off coming from the Performance-Based Pool set up by the NFL. Beyond that, it will be taken from other places. Here is how it is explained:

In the 2021 League Year, if the $48 million taken from the Performance-Based Pool is insufficient to fund the League-wide Cost of the Additional Game Check, the shortfall shall be funded by the 2021 Rookie Redistribution Fund, as provided in Article 7, Section 9, up to the total amount of the Fund for that League Year (i.e., up to $64 million). If the combined amount taken from the 2021 Performance-Based Pool and the 2021 Rookie Redistribution Fund (i.e., $112 million) is insufficient to fund the League-wide cost of the Additional Game Check, the shortfall shall be funded as a new Player Benefit that will be treated in the same manner as any other Player Benefit Cost. In the 2022-30 League Years, the League-wide Cost of the Additional Game Check shall be funded by the Rookie Redistribution Fund for the applicable League Year. If the Rookie Redistribution Fund for the applicable League Year is insufficient to fund the total cost of the Additional Game Check in that League Year, the shortfall shall be funded as a new Player Benefit that will be treated in the same manner as any other Player Benefit Cost.

WW_Who_Dat · 08-25-2022, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks.

The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room.

Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap.

Not sure I know the bottom line answer to this question but I’m pretty sure the revenue from this home preseason games goes straight into the teams account ledger … not the NFL account ledger

mapcow · 08-25-2022, 09:47 AM

Dang.... The Saints lost AGAIN... who would have thought

08-23-2022, 09:06 AM	#41
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB I get that a lot of fans believe preseason is useless but there are some that see systemic value. Especially with a new head coach. Repeatedly pointing out that the starters are not on the field is irrelevant in many regards... mostly because your only reply is what everyone here already knows. They all practice together and it is extremely rare that they do not share common discipline characteristics because of that. If your third string has issues with penalties and ball control, there is a high probability your first string has issues as well. Same position coach, same fundamentals being taught or ignored. Skill has little to do with fundamentals.. in 2021 Dak Prescott had 15 fumbles, Kyler Murray had 13, Josh Allen had 9, all three in that seasons top 10 QBs. . For those that keep mumbling that the starters aren't out there so it doesn't matter... Remember that the next time you see a starter limping off the field and say "next guy up"... Because it will matter then. Rugby Saint II likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

08-23-2022, 09:38 AM	#42
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB It's not only fans that feel that preseason games have greatly, or to some completely, lost their value. I have heard several coaches and GM's saying the exact same thing pointing out that you get more out of a couple of dual practice sessions than out of all the preseason games combined when it comes to both evaluation and teaching. I have heard coaches say they can get 20-25 snaps against certain looks over a two day dual practice, while they may see the same looks four or five times in an entire preseason of games. There are several proponents in and around the league pushing for these dual practices as a replacement in part or whole for preseason games. The main thing keeping them around is the revenue they generate for the league. Fans pay for the tickets and the players do not get paid for the games. Free income for the league. I for one would much rather watch a dual practice session for free than a preseason game with few if any starters for which I had to hand over the money. That said, I'll be in the stands Friday since I'm forced to purchase the ticket as part of the season ticket package and am going to be in NOLA anyway.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

08-23-2022, 09:48 AM	#43
WW_Who_Dat 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lafayette, La and Valencia CA Posts: 1,270 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script. AsylumGuido and Rugby Saint II like this.

08-23-2022, 09:55 AM	#44
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,125 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script. Ding ... Ding... Ding! Therein lies the rub. It's a chance for fans to see the progress and the upcoming talent. Charging regular season prices for preseason games is stealing. Concessions revenue should suffice. In others words, those preseason games should be free.

08-23-2022, 10:20 AM	#45
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Charlie Weis was saying yesterday, I believe, on NFL Radio, that it's hard to evaluate much from a preseason game when you have a series with ones and a few twos facing the other team's twos and a sprinkling of rookies. Or later in the game when it's twos against what could arguably be fours on the other squad.

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08-25-2022, 07:11 AM	#46
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat I bet dime to a dollar if the players association required a regular game day check for each preseason game, preseason game would quickly be a thing of the past. Without the network regular season dollars it would flip the script. One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks. The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room. Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap. saintsfan1976, Rugby Saint II and WW_Who_Dat like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

08-25-2022, 09:20 AM	#47
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Originally Posted by TheOak One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks. The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room. Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap. And THAT is the overwhelmingly primary reason why preseason games aren't going anywhere unless they can be replaced by additional regular season games. I think it is a forgone conclusion that before long we'll be down to two preseason and 18 regular season games.

08-25-2022, 09:27 AM	#48
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB I did learn something interesting while delving into the above. When the league added a 17th game any players with contracts greater than the minimum received an additional game check equal to 1/17th of their salary. This money did not count toward the salary cap but was handled in the following manner. The money to pay for the additional game check will start off coming from the Performance-Based Pool set up by the NFL. Beyond that, it will be taken from other places. Here is how it is explained: In the 2021 League Year, if the $48 million taken from the Performance-Based Pool is insufficient to fund the League-wide Cost of the Additional Game Check, the shortfall shall be funded by the 2021 Rookie Redistribution Fund, as provided in Article 7, Section 9, up to the total amount of the Fund for that League Year (i.e., up to $64 million). If the combined amount taken from the 2021 Performance-Based Pool and the 2021 Rookie Redistribution Fund (i.e., $112 million) is insufficient to fund the League-wide cost of the Additional Game Check, the shortfall shall be funded as a new Player Benefit that will be treated in the same manner as any other Player Benefit Cost. In the 2022-30 League Years, the League-wide Cost of the Additional Game Check shall be funded by the Rookie Redistribution Fund for the applicable League Year. If the Rookie Redistribution Fund for the applicable League Year is insufficient to fund the total cost of the Additional Game Check in that League Year, the shortfall shall be funded as a new Player Benefit that will be treated in the same manner as any other Player Benefit Cost.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

08-25-2022, 09:41 AM	#49
WW_Who_Dat 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lafayette, La and Valencia CA Posts: 1,270 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Originally Posted by TheOak One would think but you may not want to place that bet... game checks are a derived from salary not vice versa. Cap drives salary, salary drives game checks.. If they added 3 more checks to a season they would just take the salary and add 3 to the divisor and pay smaller checks. The NFLPA cant "require", they must negotiate on a CBA renewal and when the NFLPA negotiates with the owners the NFLPA is the least skilled negotiator with the least leverage in the room. Besides that, television is a huge part of what drives the cap and removing the network revenue for preseason games would lower the cap. Not sure I know the bottom line answer to this question but I’m pretty sure the revenue from this home preseason games goes straight into the teams account ledger … not the NFL account ledger

08-25-2022, 09:47 AM	#50
mapcow Just a Fan Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,753	Re: Observations from the Saints' preseason loss @ GB Dang.... The Saints lost AGAIN... who would have thought
mapcow Just a Fan Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,753