If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?

Rugby Saint II · 10-05-2022, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Rugs has a better shot at being named Miss Louisiana than the Saints making a head coaching move midseason.

You obviously haven't seen me in a dress.

AsylumGuido · 10-05-2022, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

You obviously haven't seen me in a dress.

I plan on keeping it that way. LOL!

rezburna · 10-06-2022, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

We can't get those guys mid-season. We could probably get Marv Lewis at any time. His career winning percentage is .518. Allen's is .225. He is a known commodity as a coach with a predictable .500 level coaching record who would allow us to assess whether coaching or talent is the problem on our roster starting now, not next year. We have no idea how those young coordinators would transition to head coaching, the best of them probably wouldn't take a job from us if they had any other offer, and we can't ask until January. Marv Lewis is an option now.

If everyone can take Andy Dalton seriously but nobody can take Marv Lewis seriously I have to ask why? Would it have helped if Marv Lewis had been an interim coach for the Cowboys and Bears the last couple of years and was really bad? What is the difference? Is there something superficial about Dalton and Allen that some people just prefer over Winston and Lewis, where its fair to replace Winston after a few games with Dalton, but Allen deserves a full season minimum and the replacement can't be Lewis?

I think Lewis still deserves to be a head coach. I don’t think New Orleans is the place for him, especially if he’s simply being used as an experiment. It’s pretty apparent the organization is going to finish this season out with Allen and rethink things next year.

TheOak · 10-06-2022, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

You obviously haven't seen me in a dress.

WalMart - 87'... You were looking for a Loverboy album, I was trying to decide between Dream Evil or The Last in Line.

TheOak · 10-06-2022, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

We can't demote DA to DC or we would have to demote two co-DC's or have 3 DCs. He would have to go. I am generally all for promoting from within but what unit on the team is performing well to deserve a promotion? I feel like we have been disappointing in every area. Doug Marrone has been a head coach but was not very good and his oline unit is stinking it up. The defense is better but the pass rush and coverage are both having an off year. I guess they could interview everyone and see who has fresh answers.

I worry that we will not be an attractive destination to young promising outside head coaches in the offseason because we have no solution at qb, no first round pick or big cap space to get one, one of the oldest teams in the league, the highest over the salary cap, a GM on borrowed time if he is retained, etc. We could only get candidates that have no other offers. However I said before and will say again Flores is a good option. No other team will take him because it would anger King Roger but he can't be more angry at us so it would actually make it harder for him to act out against us due to more eyes and media narrative on the situation. Same reason we should lure JC Tretter out of retirement if he or McCoy could play guard. F Roger.

If you cant make the hard decisions don't try to manage. You'll fire a head coach after week 4 but not demote a DC (this screams that you don't stand behind your decisions)... The 30,000' view is that you replaced the HC with a .500 win HC, and jettisoned the one person attributed with the success of your defense for the last few years. This is called setting the next guy up to fail.

Absence of a QB is not going to deter potential coaches, a **** show of illogical moves will. Absence of players is a challenge for an incoming coach, presence of Jerry Jones management style is not.

Boston Saint · 10-06-2022, 10:12 AM

The flip side of the question is why would Lewis want to come in and babysit a team he has no ties with knowing he is a fill-in?

papz · 10-06-2022, 02:00 PM

HC - Marvin Lewis
OC - Norv Turner
DC - Herm Edwards

BakoSaint · 10-06-2022, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If you cant make the hard decisions don't try to manage. You'll fire a head coach after week 4 but not demote a DC (this screams that you don't stand behind your decisions)... The 30,000' view is that you replaced the HC with a .500 win HC, and jettisoned the one person attributed with the success of your defense for the last few years. This is called setting the next guy up to fail.

Absence of a QB is not going to deter potential coaches, a **** show of illogical moves will. Absence of players is a challenge for an incoming coach, presence of Jerry Jones management style is not.

The discussion of demoting the co-DC's came up in the context of someone proposing to demote Allen back to DC, which would then displace the DC's. Regardless of anything else, I think musically demoting everyone to a lower chair would be the worst thing. If you don't want a coach anymore you fire them. You can't have leaders rejected and demoted and expect them to command respect. My 30,000ft view is that we mistakenly promoted a decent DC to head coach (our defense was successful in the regular season but not great in the playoffs) when he is horribly disasterous as a head coach. Keeping him as a head coach will lead to horrible implosion to gutter records, I would predict we finish 4-13 with Allen. Keeping him at DC might have been fine but now that he was promoted, demoting him back is untenable. So the best thing is to break ties. A more talented coach like Lewis could come in and likely win more games even with no familiarity with our team, which would also mean no biases and debts. He could rely on coordinators and then fix what he sees broken and motivate as he learns and adapts. Anyone we hire is set up to fail for awhile with our cap and draft pick situation but for someone wanting an opportunity it still is one to do better than expected during a rebuild.

If illogical moves deter future coaches we should not have given Andrus Peat and Taysom Hill their current contracts, traded our first round pick in the upcoming draft when we were going into a season with high uncertainty where it could be an early pick, and unloaded a young leader of our defense in CGJ for nothing. Those are illogical moves. If I was a coaching candidate I would be more worried about those illogical moves than worried that hiring me and not saddling me with the previous head coach as a defensive coordinator were illogical moves. Most head coaches may deserve more than 4-6 games to prove themselves, but a coach who comes in with an 8-28 record and already knows the system for years needs to hit the ground running, because 1-3 just proves the 8-28 wasn't a fluke and being on the staff years proves it ain't just an adjustment period. It's like if we made Blake Bortles the week 1 starter and only have him 4 games, based on his past record it makes sense not to give him a year. Except Blake Bortles went to an AFC championship and is infinitely more accomplished as a starting QB than Allen as a head coach.

Jerry Jones is a better GM than Mickey Loomis. Look at the Cowboys salary cap, draft picks, roster, recent draft results, and record. Until this year we were better than the Cowboys for a long time because we had a much better head coach and better long term QB. The last thing our GM did better was bringing on Payton and lucking out with the Dolphins rejecting Brees in 2006. Since then the GM who drafted Dak in the 4th, Gallup in the 3rd, Schultz in the 4th, Pollard in the 4th, and recently added Parsons and Diggs is a better GM. The problem with Jones is he hasn't been able to get along with good coaches. Loomis can get along with good coaches but he can get along with absolutely lousy coaches too.

TheOak · 10-07-2022, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

......

Its difficult to reply to you because the performance measurements that you go by are so heavily self rationalized and rarely logical. We have never had a better record than the Cowboys because of two people, you said that because it supports your emotions. Loomis doesn't draft, that's apples to oranges.

Best answer that I have seen to date on who does the drafting
If you're the Patriots, it’s the head coach.
If you're the Cowboys, it’s the owner.
If you're the Browns, it’s random homeless people.

What you have failed to consider because you are hell bent on lynching Loomis is that quite possibly Loomis is responsible for Payton and Brees, then Payton took over up until this year, and this year was Allen... Or maybe Loomis has never drafted.

BakoSaint · 10-07-2022, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Its difficult to reply to you because the performance measurements that you go by are so heavily self rationalized and rarely logical. We have never had a better record than the Cowboys because of two people, you said that because it supports your emotions. Loomis doesn't draft, that's apples to oranges.

Best answer that I have seen to date on who does the drafting
If you're the Patriots, it’s the head coach.
If you're the Cowboys, it’s the owner.
If you're the Browns, it’s random homeless people.

What you have failed to consider because you are hell bent on lynching Loomis is that quite possibly Loomis is responsible for Payton and Brees, then Payton took over up until this year, and this year was Allen... Or maybe Loomis has never drafted.

If your the Saints, maybe its the local hospital that gets to bill the players health insurance that does the drafting? Or the local bail bondsman? Sure seems like it sometimes.

I am glad that Loomis made one right decision in 2006 and things carried over decently to 2009.

But I don't think its an 'illogical' performance measurement to ask that if a GM is spending more salary cap dollars than any other GM and has also leveraged valuable future draft assets to win now, that they win now. Ultimately if Loomis really is the GM and not a glad hander in a suit with no responsibilities, he ok'd trading our 2023 1st rounder as part of a package to trade up for a rookie wide receiver. He bet the farm that this was our year, our window, and the pick we were trading would be mid or late in the round. He bet and he seems to be losing that bet. When you lose that kind of bet you should pay. So he needs to go. For too long he has always resisted rebuilding and always made the short term decision at a long term cost, always borrowing at high interest in free agency and the draft by trading up, trading future picks, and restructuring contracts to guarantee more money to underperforming players in return for shifting cap debt to the future.

Some GMs can evaluate players. Some GMs can make shrewd deals to gain more long term salary cap flexibility or future draft picks to make the team asset rich not asset poor. Mickey Loomis can do none of these things. He only knows how to borrow more to pay existing debts, how to walk us deeper into a trap. Maybe he will trade our 2024 and 2025 1st rounders to get us back into the late 1st round in 2023. Make it happen Loomis say the lemmings. But probably whoever we draft with that pick will make some great young player we have 'expendable' because he didn't get someone on the staff coffee or whatever, and then probably we trade Werner or McCoy to the Eagles for a 5th rounder.

I don't want Loomis lynched. I just want him to move to some quaint town and open a B&B and stop dabbling in sports management. We need a GM who is good at evaluating players. Gayle Benson can't evaluate players. Dennis Allen can't evaluate players or plays or anything with any part of the word playoffs. The homeless of New Orleans could probably evaluate players better than any of the three, but not well enough to compete. And if we rely on assistants to lead evaluation, they will just be stolen away if they do well. We need a GM who can lead evaluation and who can also be a long term stabilizing force in our front office who exudes discipline and strategy and prevents us from blowing out our salary cap or mortgaging our draft future unless we are an absolute elite contender that is really a player away. Of course many coaches always want to max out all future salary cap now and trade up in the draft and forget the future, their job is often in jeopardy year to year so they don't want to save any spoils for their successor. The GM is supposed to be the counterbalance to that, the guy who says no and saves some cap space and draft picks for the next year. Maybe we were that elite contender in 2019 or so where it made sense to put everything on the table, but we clearly are not now. Loomis now is mortgaging our long term future to stretch for 'ok' and 'i guess you never know' seasons to save his job and keep cashing checks. We need to rebuild but he only knows how to be the king of debt to stretch every dollar for today and damn the future. We can't win until we move on and find a real GM and a real coach, and get more cap and draft assets to either find a franchise QB or stock up in the trenches to win without one.

10-05-2022, 03:46 PM	#21
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,043	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Rugs has a better shot at being named Miss Louisiana than the Saints making a head coaching move midseason. You obviously haven't seen me in a dress.

10-05-2022, 04:13 PM	#22
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,046	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II You obviously haven't seen me in a dress. I plan on keeping it that way. LOL!

10-06-2022, 07:03 AM	#23
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,848	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by BakoSaint We can't get those guys mid-season. We could probably get Marv Lewis at any time. His career winning percentage is .518. Allen's is .225. He is a known commodity as a coach with a predictable .500 level coaching record who would allow us to assess whether coaching or talent is the problem on our roster starting now, not next year. We have no idea how those young coordinators would transition to head coaching, the best of them probably wouldn't take a job from us if they had any other offer, and we can't ask until January. Marv Lewis is an option now. If everyone can take Andy Dalton seriously but nobody can take Marv Lewis seriously I have to ask why? Would it have helped if Marv Lewis had been an interim coach for the Cowboys and Bears the last couple of years and was really bad? What is the difference? Is there something superficial about Dalton and Allen that some people just prefer over Winston and Lewis, where its fair to replace Winston after a few games with Dalton, but Allen deserves a full season minimum and the replacement can't be Lewis? I think Lewis still deserves to be a head coach. I don’t think New Orleans is the place for him, especially if he’s simply being used as an experiment. It’s pretty apparent the organization is going to finish this season out with Allen and rethink things next year.

10-06-2022, 09:28 AM	#24
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,019	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II You obviously haven't seen me in a dress. WalMart - 87'... You were looking for a Loverboy album, I was trying to decide between Dream Evil or The Last in Line.

10-06-2022, 09:47 AM	#25
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,019	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by BakoSaint We can't demote DA to DC or we would have to demote two co-DC's or have 3 DCs. He would have to go. I am generally all for promoting from within but what unit on the team is performing well to deserve a promotion? I feel like we have been disappointing in every area. Doug Marrone has been a head coach but was not very good and his oline unit is stinking it up. The defense is better but the pass rush and coverage are both having an off year. I guess they could interview everyone and see who has fresh answers. I worry that we will not be an attractive destination to young promising outside head coaches in the offseason because we have no solution at qb, no first round pick or big cap space to get one, one of the oldest teams in the league, the highest over the salary cap, a GM on borrowed time if he is retained, etc. We could only get candidates that have no other offers. However I said before and will say again Flores is a good option. No other team will take him because it would anger King Roger but he can't be more angry at us so it would actually make it harder for him to act out against us due to more eyes and media narrative on the situation. Same reason we should lure JC Tretter out of retirement if he or McCoy could play guard. F Roger. If you cant make the hard decisions don't try to manage. You'll fire a head coach after week 4 but not demote a DC (this screams that you don't stand behind your decisions)... The 30,000' view is that you replaced the HC with a .500 win HC, and jettisoned the one person attributed with the success of your defense for the last few years. This is called setting the next guy up to fail. Absence of a QB is not going to deter potential coaches, a **** show of illogical moves will. Absence of players is a challenge for an incoming coach, presence of Jerry Jones management style is not. WW_Who_Dat likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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10-06-2022, 10:12 AM	#26
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? The flip side of the question is why would Lewis want to come in and babysit a team he has no ties with knowing he is a fill-in?

10-06-2022, 02:00 PM	#27
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,737	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? HC - Marvin Lewis OC - Norv Turner DC - Herm Edwards

10-06-2022, 09:59 PM	#28
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by TheOak If you cant make the hard decisions don't try to manage. You'll fire a head coach after week 4 but not demote a DC (this screams that you don't stand behind your decisions)... The 30,000' view is that you replaced the HC with a .500 win HC, and jettisoned the one person attributed with the success of your defense for the last few years. This is called setting the next guy up to fail. Absence of a QB is not going to deter potential coaches, a **** show of illogical moves will. Absence of players is a challenge for an incoming coach, presence of Jerry Jones management style is not. The discussion of demoting the co-DC's came up in the context of someone proposing to demote Allen back to DC, which would then displace the DC's. Regardless of anything else, I think musically demoting everyone to a lower chair would be the worst thing. If you don't want a coach anymore you fire them. You can't have leaders rejected and demoted and expect them to command respect. My 30,000ft view is that we mistakenly promoted a decent DC to head coach (our defense was successful in the regular season but not great in the playoffs) when he is horribly disasterous as a head coach. Keeping him as a head coach will lead to horrible implosion to gutter records, I would predict we finish 4-13 with Allen. Keeping him at DC might have been fine but now that he was promoted, demoting him back is untenable. So the best thing is to break ties. A more talented coach like Lewis could come in and likely win more games even with no familiarity with our team, which would also mean no biases and debts. He could rely on coordinators and then fix what he sees broken and motivate as he learns and adapts. Anyone we hire is set up to fail for awhile with our cap and draft pick situation but for someone wanting an opportunity it still is one to do better than expected during a rebuild. If illogical moves deter future coaches we should not have given Andrus Peat and Taysom Hill their current contracts, traded our first round pick in the upcoming draft when we were going into a season with high uncertainty where it could be an early pick, and unloaded a young leader of our defense in CGJ for nothing. Those are illogical moves. If I was a coaching candidate I would be more worried about those illogical moves than worried that hiring me and not saddling me with the previous head coach as a defensive coordinator were illogical moves. Most head coaches may deserve more than 4-6 games to prove themselves, but a coach who comes in with an 8-28 record and already knows the system for years needs to hit the ground running, because 1-3 just proves the 8-28 wasn't a fluke and being on the staff years proves it ain't just an adjustment period. It's like if we made Blake Bortles the week 1 starter and only have him 4 games, based on his past record it makes sense not to give him a year. Except Blake Bortles went to an AFC championship and is infinitely more accomplished as a starting QB than Allen as a head coach. Jerry Jones is a better GM than Mickey Loomis. Look at the Cowboys salary cap, draft picks, roster, recent draft results, and record. Until this year we were better than the Cowboys for a long time because we had a much better head coach and better long term QB. The last thing our GM did better was bringing on Payton and lucking out with the Dolphins rejecting Brees in 2006. Since then the GM who drafted Dak in the 4th, Gallup in the 3rd, Schultz in the 4th, Pollard in the 4th, and recently added Parsons and Diggs is a better GM. The problem with Jones is he hasn't been able to get along with good coaches. Loomis can get along with good coaches but he can get along with absolutely lousy coaches too.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091

10-07-2022, 11:02 AM	#29
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,019	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by BakoSaint ...... Its difficult to reply to you because the performance measurements that you go by are so heavily self rationalized and rarely logical. We have never had a better record than the Cowboys because of two people, you said that because it supports your emotions. Loomis doesn't draft, that's apples to oranges. Best answer that I have seen to date on who does the drafting If you're the Patriots, it’s the head coach. If you're the Cowboys, it’s the owner. If you're the Browns, it’s random homeless people. What you have failed to consider because you are hell bent on lynching Loomis is that quite possibly Loomis is responsible for Payton and Brees, then Payton took over up until this year, and this year was Allen... Or maybe Loomis has never drafted.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

10-07-2022, 03:10 PM	#30
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091	Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously? Originally Posted by TheOak Its difficult to reply to you because the performance measurements that you go by are so heavily self rationalized and rarely logical. We have never had a better record than the Cowboys because of two people, you said that because it supports your emotions. Loomis doesn't draft, that's apples to oranges. Best answer that I have seen to date on who does the drafting If you're the Patriots, it’s the head coach. If you're the Cowboys, it’s the owner. If you're the Browns, it’s random homeless people. What you have failed to consider because you are hell bent on lynching Loomis is that quite possibly Loomis is responsible for Payton and Brees, then Payton took over up until this year, and this year was Allen... Or maybe Loomis has never drafted. If your the Saints, maybe its the local hospital that gets to bill the players health insurance that does the drafting? Or the local bail bondsman? Sure seems like it sometimes. I am glad that Loomis made one right decision in 2006 and things carried over decently to 2009. But I don't think its an 'illogical' performance measurement to ask that if a GM is spending more salary cap dollars than any other GM and has also leveraged valuable future draft assets to win now, that they win now. Ultimately if Loomis really is the GM and not a glad hander in a suit with no responsibilities, he ok'd trading our 2023 1st rounder as part of a package to trade up for a rookie wide receiver. He bet the farm that this was our year, our window, and the pick we were trading would be mid or late in the round. He bet and he seems to be losing that bet. When you lose that kind of bet you should pay. So he needs to go. For too long he has always resisted rebuilding and always made the short term decision at a long term cost, always borrowing at high interest in free agency and the draft by trading up, trading future picks, and restructuring contracts to guarantee more money to underperforming players in return for shifting cap debt to the future. Some GMs can evaluate players. Some GMs can make shrewd deals to gain more long term salary cap flexibility or future draft picks to make the team asset rich not asset poor. Mickey Loomis can do none of these things. He only knows how to borrow more to pay existing debts, how to walk us deeper into a trap. Maybe he will trade our 2024 and 2025 1st rounders to get us back into the late 1st round in 2023. Make it happen Loomis say the lemmings. But probably whoever we draft with that pick will make some great young player we have 'expendable' because he didn't get someone on the staff coffee or whatever, and then probably we trade Werner or McCoy to the Eagles for a 5th rounder. I don't want Loomis lynched. I just want him to move to some quaint town and open a B&B and stop dabbling in sports management. We need a GM who is good at evaluating players. Gayle Benson can't evaluate players. Dennis Allen can't evaluate players or plays or anything with any part of the word playoffs. The homeless of New Orleans could probably evaluate players better than any of the three, but not well enough to compete. And if we rely on assistants to lead evaluation, they will just be stolen away if they do well. We need a GM who can lead evaluation and who can also be a long term stabilizing force in our front office who exudes discipline and strategy and prevents us from blowing out our salary cap or mortgaging our draft future unless we are an absolute elite contender that is really a player away. Of course many coaches always want to max out all future salary cap now and trade up in the draft and forget the future, their job is often in jeopardy year to year so they don't want to save any spoils for their successor. The GM is supposed to be the counterbalance to that, the guy who says no and saves some cap space and draft picks for the next year. Maybe we were that elite contender in 2019 or so where it made sense to put everything on the table, but we clearly are not now. Loomis now is mortgaging our long term future to stretch for 'ok' and 'i guess you never know' seasons to save his job and keep cashing checks. We need to rebuild but he only knows how to be the king of debt to stretch every dollar for today and damn the future. We can't win until we move on and find a real GM and a real coach, and get more cap and draft assets to either find a franchise QB or stock up in the trenches to win without one.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091	Last edited by BakoSaint; 10-07-2022 at 03:20 PM..