Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I’m not a salary cap guru so I just kinda throw things out with no knowledge of cap ramifications, but could Kamara or Lattimore garner a number 1 pick from another team and if so what are the cap issues for us with it?

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

$19.37 million dead cap to trade Kamara after the season.

$43 million dead cap to trade Lattimore after the season.

Not sure what could be gained.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Well that answers that. Lol. Thanks

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

What could be gained is 2024+ cap and draft picks. The Falcons took cap hits for Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, and Deion Jones bc they are committed to rebuild. The Panthers took cap hits for CMC and Baker. We could find a way to take cap hits now for the good of the future if we wanted to. But I think the best moves for the future are cut Peat, cut Winston, trade or cut Thomas, trade or cut Hill. Trading Kamara could make sense with the right value though, pre or
Post June 1. The other key thing is if we keep any of these players, dont restructure them in a way that would make the cap hit worse if we move on in the 2023-24 offseason, which means dont restructure them at all. We need to stop borrowing money in ways that ties are hands. These big cap hit numbera are usually the result of past restructuring schemes. Loomis loomising leads to Peat peating and us paying $15 million a year for it.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

If I am reading the cap numbers correctly, looks like in 2023, Lattimore absolutely cannot be moved as it appears about 20 1/2 million more cap space would need to be created to either trade or release, Kamara would basically balance out as there would be a minor cap savings of about 700k.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Even though there could be minimal savings on Kamara, you still get stuck with a minimum of almost $15 million in dead money on your cap. So you are still accounting for him on your books without having him on your roster.

I know some might say you can spread that dead cap hit out with a post June 1st trade, but if the point of trading is to get 2023 picks that won't work.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Kamara could make sense at some point. Not Lattimore though.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Kamara also has the unknown factor of a legal issue. I don't see him having any trade value until that is all behind him.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I completely agree with what you are saying. All this really means is Kamara can be moved if the Saints desire to do so without having to come up with additional cap space. My best guess is Kamara will be retained and likely restructured to create additional cap space, thus making him impossible to move in 2023 once that restructure is applied. Of course his situation is tricky with his pending legal issues.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I see Kamara’s legal issues and CMC’s injury history being a wash and their value being similar. CMC’s helth has always been an unknown factor and the Panthers got value. Our best move would have been to trade Kamara before the trade deadline to avoid the suspension issue. But remember, Watson was moved with a pending suspension of a much more heinous nature though Watson is a QB. The other right thing we could do is refuse to restructure Kamara, which gives us an ability to move him after his suspension and before the trade deadline if we are not amazing contenders next year. This also preserves 2024 cap so the cycle of perpetual cap crisis will one day end and we will be able to add players like williams and armstead and hendrickson not lose them one day.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

ahh...phuck it.. Lattimore & Kamara (thug) let em both sit the bench and collect. Just like the prima showed them how.... :rofl:

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

With the Las Vegas incident looming larger in the court system next year Kamara may not be that attractive for any trade partner. If it is just a late round pick I wouldn't take it.

When and if he is suspended next year and he's still a Saint then we'd better have a Good Power Runner to hold down the fort and then to pair with AK like Ingram used to.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Dead money....blah blah blah. Everyone should be made expendable if we are truly in the rebuild mode. Which we should be. If we have to suck for a while then we suck for a while. Half-assing it with unrealistic expectations is no way to go, and is what we are currently doing.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Why rebuild when our roster is loaded with really good players? Just for the **** of it?

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Just need a Head Coach, and we could begin to bounce back!

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Because of the ****ing results and that we are losing key players every offseason (hendrickson, williams, armstead) and because our oline is no good and because we need youth but can onky afford limps and war stories. Also we dont bave a qb, the picks to get one, the coaches to teach one, or the line to protect one.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

As much as many want the Saints to rebuild, it simply cannot be done. Let's assume the projected number of minus 50 mil in salary cap holds true for 2023. What you need to look at now is cap savings for a particular player or group of players. The way the Saints have most of their contracts structured, that cap savings number is going to be a negative or close to an even number. Example if you release a player with a 20 mil negative number, now you are negative 70 mil in the hole. If you release a player with a small gain, like 1 mil, then you are at minus 49 but you are also removing a contract that can be converted from salary to signing bonus, thus taking away a player that can help you gain positive cap space.

A larger scale example, let's pretend the Saints want to rebuild the team, and they are currently 50 million in cap debt. Let's assume Peat, Kamara, Lattimore, Jordan, Mathieu, Hill, Thomas, and Davis are all under contract and these would be the targeted players to release/trade to facilitate a true rebuild. Let's assume their cap savings for 2023 are all at 0 and now they are all removed from the roster. We are still looking at a 50 million cap debt, now where is that cap space going to coming from with no contracts left to convert? (To my knowledge no one on the Saints roster has a large positive cap savings number if released/traded)

The Saints situation, they are probably in a position in 2023 to move on from maybe 1 or 2 big contract guys at the most, likely having to use a post June 1st designation.

I am be no means an expert, just my interpretation of what I found through some research. If anyone wants to research this on their own, a good reference is https://overthecap.com/

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I don't know if you just simply ignore what's going on with other teams across the league, but virtually all of them lose players to free agency every year.

As for QB, you yourself I believe just pointed out the rarity of getting an "elite" QB with a first round pick anyway. We have the picks to get one, I believe we have the coaches to coach them, and once all of our offensive linemen are off IR, we have the offensive line to protect them.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

You are correct. Another good source is Saints Spotrac.com

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I've mentioned it a few times this year in game day chats, but AK's body language has been bad.

IMO the stoic look most of the year has been poor due to an ineffective offensive coordinator in Pete Carmichael. What in the hell happened to the screen passes to Alvin :rolleyes:?

I'm not certain what happens on black Monday, however, I do know Pete Carmichael will be a ghost in New Orleans.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

I couldn't agree more.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

We don't have a first round pick so unless your suggesting bundling multiple picks like Dicka did for Williams or giving up a 2024 1st + a 2025 1st for a 2023 1st that's not helping, it's hurting. And if you haven't noticed our LOSING record, we don't have the coaches to coach this team. I really don't know where some of your comments come from on here. You really need to look and not just make things up. Payton was a good gambler, Allen is just a gambling loser, there is a huge differnce between those 2 gamblers.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Jordan doesn't look like the Jordan of old. I don't know what we would net for him now but he still has some value.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Why do you think you have to have a first rounder to draft a QB? Only one QB (Pickett) was drafted last year in the first round and he wasn't taken until pick 20. The second QB (Ridder) wasn't taken until the 74th pick in the entire draft. The QB (Purdy) that has shown the most success wasn't taken until the final pick (#262) in the draft.

90% of QB's drafted never become regular starters regardless of what round they are selected. Even a smaller percent of those will become elite. It may take several years worth of picks to find our next long time starter. I believe you, and many others, are too fixated on a single pick from next year. There is a far better chance that Olave and Penning will be contributing to the Saints success years into the future than any QB would be drafted with the traded 2023 pick.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Like Brady, right, 199 I believe, don't quote me on that, but I might could see one drafted. I could see one starting a trial by fire.That way the coach is off the hook for the season. Pointing fingers , laying blame, you get the drift!! But what I can't see is who would develope him, do you? One has to have a game plan or waist draft picks, you know!!

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

You just described Sean Payton.

And I fully expect us to draft a QB. I hope we draft one every year until we find the long term answer.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

no man!! Payton had Brees. Payton didn't draft a starting qb, he took a chance Brees was health, he won.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

He took a chance. Same thing in the draft. You take a chance. Nobody knows if they'll be successful or not. Odds are they won't.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

If SP was successful with his QB choices with Romo, Brees, etc, why was he unsuccessful subsequently other than backup QBs? What changed in his evaluations ?

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Drew was a chance happening and I’m betting, with his motor, he would have been successful wherever he went.

Romo didn’t start until 2006 (Sean was here). It’s worth noting that Romo went undrafted in spite of Peyton telling him how interested Dallas was. In 2003 he was 3rd on the depth chart, in 2004 he was nearly cut. Meaning that he would have not been Sean’s priority.

I’m going to go way out on a limb here and surmise that even though Sean Payton was a QB coach for a couple of teams and never for more than 2-3 years that he may be able to spot a needle in the haystack but has no talent directly attributed to his mentoring. Add to that a failure to develop a successor to Drew and the sh1t-show he left our QB unit in, we give him credit for being a lot better developer than he actually is.
I like him a lot as a coach but this is undeniable. :bng:

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Drew Brees was a number one draft pick who was just a little short and Tony Romo just needed someone to explain the game to him I believe. Maybe Sean Payton is a quarterback Guru. Maybe not. He was inefficient with mid and late round draft picks that had little to no value. Is that his fault?

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Its also relevent that Winston was 15:3 TD:INT under Payton and Teddy Bildgewater was 5-0 or something. I attribute Hill’s success with Payton mostly to defense and run blocking but still. Basically Payton can take QBs with clear talent who had been hit and miss with other teams like Brees, Winston, and Bridgewater and make them. More consistent and elevate their play. But he also thinks he can elevate absolute nobodies like Semien and Book and all his draft busts and all our 2021 receivers and he cant do that. Payton might be able to fix a Winston or Mayfield or Darnold or Wentz. But he is not fixing Ian Book or whatever, he cant see when there is nothing to salvage. Maybe he will take Trainwreck Smith and Taysom Hill off our hands. Payton needs a strong GM to achieve his full potential but will probably demand full control or a yes man so he can blow resources on dumb projects.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

uhh.... drew had proven himself already. he got hurt, manned up; unlike, another play...err, prima donna... and showed the charger's they phucked up and decided to go with Rivers... :rofl:

No "Chance" here, ...... rumor starter. :rofl:

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Not quite sure we could absorb that type of hit. I say stand pat and find a way to get a qb next year. Maybe MT will play a few games which should help. We get a qb we are a 9-10 win team.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Come on mapcow. The “chance” was going with a proven QB who suffered what would have been a career ending injury to a lot of players. The chance in not knowing if he would be successful had nothing to do with his talents but whether he could perform at a high level after the injury. So yes it was a chance and it paid off.

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Trade Thomas, nuff said! We’ve got a good group of WR’s without him and we could get another good draft pick and maybe trade up to get Young!!’

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

SP can judge a QB already in the league but not coming out of college.

Tyler Palko (UNDFA)
Sean Canfield
Garret Grayson
Ian Book (jury's still out on him)

Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade
 

Actual football players that want to play for pay.:dunce: