Okay -- lets hear it

4saintspirit · 10-03-2005, 02:42 PM

What is the definition of a good defense -- one that holds opponents under a certain amount. Is it judged by yardage.

What about the offense -- how many points scored. No turnovers -- long drives.

I would like to hear opinions because right now everyone says our defense has played badly, our offense has been terrible -- etc.

Now this topic is very subjective but I think would go a long way of seeing what people think.

For me -- I'd say if our defense holds the opposing team under 17 points we were successful.

For the offense its tougher -- If I went by only points it would not be fair -- 4 turnovers and 21 points is that good???

Tobias-Reiper · 10-03-2005, 03:03 PM

..this is going to sound like I'm pulling your chain...
A good offense is the offense that scores more points than the points the defense allows
A good defense is the defense that doesn't allow more points than the points scored by the offense...

..allow me to explain:

It's hard to put a number for either points scored and points allowed, because there are many factors that affect the outcome of a game: wheather, injuries, field conditions, etc... sometimes games turn into defensive battles, others turn into scoring contests... and at any given point of any given game, the offense has to score and/or the defense has to make a stop in order to win the game, regardless of what happened in the game up to that point.

Take the KC-Philly game for example. The Chiefs were having their way with the Eagles. At one point, the Eagles offense staring scoring, and the defense didn't allow any more points by the Chiefs.. This would be a case where the offense scored more points than the defense already had allowed...

I hope I got my point across

... but if I had to put a number to it, I would say the magic number is 21. Your offense should score more than 21, and your defense shouldn't allow more than 21.

Another thing, there is a difference between good and pretty. Some teams just win ugly, some teams win pretty, and I think somethimes "pretty" gets confused with "good", just as "ugly" gets confused with "bad"...

SaintFanInATLHELL · 10-03-2005, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by 4saintspirit

What is the definition of a good defense -- one that holds opponents under a certain amount. Is it judged by yardage.

Scoring, turnovers, and yards in that order.

What about the offense -- how many points scored. No turnovers -- long drives.

Scoring, turnovers, TOP in that order.

I would like to hear opinions because right now everyone says our defense has played badly, our offense has been terrible -- etc.

Now this topic is very subjective but I think would go a long way of seeing what people think.

For me -- I'd say if our defense holds the opposing team under 17 points we were successful.

For the offense its tougher -- If I went by only points it would not be fair -- 4 turnovers and 21 points is that good???

No. It impacts TO and TOP significantly.

In general the team has to win in the following categories to win the game:

scoring (DUH!)

TOP

turnovers

yards (and especially rushing yards)

Wins in the bottom three generally leads to winning in the scoring of a game.

So 4 turnovers would not be good for an offense because it impacts all 4 categories negatively. Without the 4 turnovers the team would have a greater TOP, more yards, less turnovers and presumably more points than the 21.

Dr. SFIAH (yes I finally finished my dissertation!)

4saintspirit · 10-03-2005, 03:13 PM

All very good points. IMO I would also have to use a magic line at 21 points === Of course many other factors are present but I am trying to get a feeling for our teams play to date. I have heard people complain about the D, about the O, complain about everything. Now for my money I feel that our D played well enough to give the offense a chance to win the Panthers and Bills game. The offense took advantage of that chance in the Panther and Bills game -- As for the offense -- just because they took advatage does not necessarily mean they played particularly well. The bills game was nothing spectacular --

So my take is that the deense won the bills game -- both sides of the ball contributed to the Panther game === While the Minn game was bad defensively the Offense had the chance to step up and win the game. They didn't = so I blame the offense more than the D. The Giants game -- got to say that both are to blame but I would put more on the D than the O. What is the real point I am trying to prove -- that for 2 games the TEAM played well and we won and for 2 games the TEAM sucked it up and we lost.

WhoDat · 10-03-2005, 04:01 PM

To me, no stats matter more than points, b/c what the hell else is the game decided by?

Our defense has allowed 20, 27, 33, and 7 (right?). 21.75 per game.

Our offense has scored 23, 10, 16, and 19 (right?). 17 per game.

That's bad. Our offense has been poor at converting drives into scores. It should be scoring 24+ per game given the opportunities it has had inside opponents' territory. Likewise, allowing 20+ per game is a recipe for disaster for this team, though if you take away the points off of turnovers the D has only really allowed about a 1 to 2 scoring drives per game.

xan · 10-03-2005, 04:15 PM

A good defense is one that rises to the occasion and prevents the opponent from making that critical score. That could mean that the D needs a shut out. It could mean giving up 30. But when it counts, the D must make adjustments to whatever the opposing offense is doing so that the team has a chance to win. It matters not how a team achieves it, be it a system, cohesiveness, individual instinct, it simply must.

That being said, there's only so much a defense can do when the offense is turning the ball over 6 times a game. And being put in short field situations continually.

The tackle that Smith had on 4th and inches was a defining moment for a defense. Would it be so that every game there was a play like that in the Saints.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 10-03-2005, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by 4saintspirit

All very good points. IMO I would also have to use a magic line at 21 points

For the Saints that is the magic number. Over the last 4 years the team is 22-8 when they hold the opposition under 21 points and 6-0 in the last 8 games played.

TallySaint · 10-06-2005, 12:43 PM

I'm gonna be stubborn (and obvious) and stick to my "We hold 'em to 17 or less and we score 18 or more, we win".

8)

SaintStoneyMount · 10-06-2005, 06:23 PM

IMHO
A good defense is a defense that creates opportunity for it's offense. Either by getting off the field and forcing punt or causing turnovers.
The offense needs to caontrol the tempo and flow of the game and impose its will. If the team wants to run it has to make the run a viable options by not getting into long yardage situations. Manageble third downs and key conversions to stay on the field.

A good offense doesn't create opportunity for the defense. Long drives no turnovers and scoring to force the opposition into predictable play.

I think the magic number deal is kinda touch and go because depending on who is on the other side of the ball the numbers will change.

Ex. If you are playing a dominate defense 10 0r 14 points might be good. Especialy if the team has not given up any TDs in a few games.

BlackandBlue · 10-06-2005, 08:15 PM

JKOOL!

10-03-2005, 02:42 PM	#1
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Okay -- lets hear it What is the definition of a good defense -- one that holds opponents under a certain amount. Is it judged by yardage. What about the offense -- how many points scored. No turnovers -- long drives. I would like to hear opinions because right now everyone says our defense has played badly, our offense has been terrible -- etc. Now this topic is very subjective but I think would go a long way of seeing what people think. For me -- I'd say if our defense holds the opposing team under 17 points we were successful. For the offense its tougher -- If I went by only points it would not be fair -- 4 turnovers and 21 points is that good???
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

10-03-2005, 03:03 PM	#2
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	RE: Okay -- lets hear it ..this is going to sound like I'm pulling your chain... A good offense is the offense that scores more points than the points the defense allows A good defense is the defense that doesn't allow more points than the points scored by the offense... ..allow me to explain: It's hard to put a number for either points scored and points allowed, because there are many factors that affect the outcome of a game: wheather, injuries, field conditions, etc... sometimes games turn into defensive battles, others turn into scoring contests... and at any given point of any given game, the offense has to score and/or the defense has to make a stop in order to win the game, regardless of what happened in the game up to that point. Take the KC-Philly game for example. The Chiefs were having their way with the Eagles. At one point, the Eagles offense staring scoring, and the defense didn't allow any more points by the Chiefs.. This would be a case where the offense scored more points than the defense already had allowed... I hope I got my point across ... but if I had to put a number to it, I would say the magic number is 21. Your offense should score more than 21, and your defense shouldn't allow more than 21. Another thing, there is a difference between good and pretty. Some teams just win ugly, some teams win pretty, and I think somethimes "pretty" gets confused with "good", just as "ugly" gets confused with "bad"...

10-03-2005, 03:04 PM	#3
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Okay -- lets hear it Originally Posted by 4saintspirit What is the definition of a good defense -- one that holds opponents under a certain amount. Is it judged by yardage. Scoring, turnovers, and yards in that order. What about the offense -- how many points scored. No turnovers -- long drives. Scoring, turnovers, TOP in that order. I would like to hear opinions because right now everyone says our defense has played badly, our offense has been terrible -- etc. Now this topic is very subjective but I think would go a long way of seeing what people think. For me -- I'd say if our defense holds the opposing team under 17 points we were successful. For the offense its tougher -- If I went by only points it would not be fair -- 4 turnovers and 21 points is that good??? No. It impacts TO and TOP significantly. In general the team has to win in the following categories to win the game: scoring (DUH!) TOP turnovers yards (and especially rushing yards) Wins in the bottom three generally leads to winning in the scoring of a game. So 4 turnovers would not be good for an offense because it impacts all 4 categories negatively. Without the 4 turnovers the team would have a greater TOP, more yards, less turnovers and presumably more points than the 21. Dr. SFIAH (yes I finally finished my dissertation!)
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

10-03-2005, 03:13 PM	#4
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	All very good points. IMO I would also have to use a magic line at 21 points === Of course many other factors are present but I am trying to get a feeling for our teams play to date. I have heard people complain about the D, about the O, complain about everything. Now for my money I feel that our D played well enough to give the offense a chance to win the Panthers and Bills game. The offense took advantage of that chance in the Panther and Bills game -- As for the offense -- just because they took advatage does not necessarily mean they played particularly well. The bills game was nothing spectacular -- So my take is that the deense won the bills game -- both sides of the ball contributed to the Panther game === While the Minn game was bad defensively the Offense had the chance to step up and win the game. They didn't = so I blame the offense more than the D. The Giants game -- got to say that both are to blame but I would put more on the D than the O. What is the real point I am trying to prove -- that for 2 games the TEAM played well and we won and for 2 games the TEAM sucked it up and we lost.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

10-03-2005, 04:01 PM	#5
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	To me, no stats matter more than points, b/c what the hell else is the game decided by? Our defense has allowed 20, 27, 33, and 7 (right?). 21.75 per game. Our offense has scored 23, 10, 16, and 19 (right?). 17 per game. That's bad. Our offense has been poor at converting drives into scores. It should be scoring 24+ per game given the opportunities it has had inside opponents' territory. Likewise, allowing 20+ per game is a recipe for disaster for this team, though if you take away the points off of turnovers the D has only really allowed about a 1 to 2 scoring drives per game.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

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10-03-2005, 04:15 PM	#6
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,369 Blog Entries: 34	A good defense is one that rises to the occasion and prevents the opponent from making that critical score. That could mean that the D needs a shut out. It could mean giving up 30. But when it counts, the D must make adjustments to whatever the opposing offense is doing so that the team has a chance to win. It matters not how a team achieves it, be it a system, cohesiveness, individual instinct, it simply must. That being said, there's only so much a defense can do when the offense is turning the ball over 6 times a game. And being put in short field situations continually. The tackle that Smith had on 4th and inches was a defining moment for a defense. Would it be so that every game there was a play like that in the Saints.

10-03-2005, 05:02 PM	#7
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Originally Posted by 4saintspirit All very good points. IMO I would also have to use a magic line at 21 points For the Saints that is the magic number. Over the last 4 years the team is 22-8 when they hold the opposition under 21 points and 6-0 in the last 8 games played.

10-06-2005, 12:43 PM	#8
TallySaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,367	I'm gonna be stubborn (and obvious) and stick to my "We hold 'em to 17 or less and we score 18 or more, we win". 8)

10-06-2005, 06:23 PM	#9
SaintStoneyMount 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Posts: 448	IMHO A good defense is a defense that creates opportunity for it's offense. Either by getting off the field and forcing punt or causing turnovers. The offense needs to caontrol the tempo and flow of the game and impose its will. If the team wants to run it has to make the run a viable options by not getting into long yardage situations. Manageble third downs and key conversions to stay on the field. A good offense doesn't create opportunity for the defense. Long drives no turnovers and scoring to force the opposition into predictable play. I think the magic number deal is kinda touch and go because depending on who is on the other side of the ball the numbers will change. Ex. If you are playing a dominate defense 10 0r 14 points might be good. Especialy if the team has not given up any TDs in a few games.
	SaintStoneyMountLurksNoMore \"Bless U Boyz\" \"Geaux Saints\" \"Geaux Tigers\"

10-06-2005, 08:15 PM	#10
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	JKOOL!