Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Looking at the Saints offseason so far they have kicked the can on every dollar they can, down to retaining done-namic duo of Thomas and Peat just to push their cap hits out another year, which will put us in the same situation next year. There is no indication Loomis has changed in any way. Its possible we retain our 2024 1st rounder but I think any reasonable person would have to see the trend and realize a trade is more likely. Loomis had an opportunity to harm our teams future for something shiny in hand now, he will do it, it is who he is. He might even trade 2025. I expect we will be packaging the 2024 1st to move up in the draft. I hate it. But at some point I have to expect that as long as the clown is still running the show, the show is still going to be a circus.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Doubt it this year... but next year maybe. Not sure there is anyone worthy in this year's draft. And I hope they learned from the previous moves, like Davenport or Ingram. There won't be a Mahomes type this late in the draft. Maybe they move back from 29 and collect and extra number 2.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Party at Bako's house this weekend...


https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/f26...e428ecd58.jpeg:beer:

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Fantasy.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

That may be the one trick that Mickey/this old dog/ never learned. Loomis may have traded back once before Sean came on board. Since Payton joined trading down has been against the grain of the organization.

We have been drafting and developing a strong core of players along since free agency additions when Payton came on board. We were literally just a couple of players away from a championship run each year and targeting players was the acceptable practice for a championship run.

Those deep playoff runs and championships may still be ahead of us, and there is some serious optimism with our free agent acquisitions this year.
We have been trading away multiple draft picks for years to move up for a player we coveted to complete the roster. The results were a mixed bag of successes and failures.

Our ratio increased dramatically when Ireland joined the Saints at the Senior Bowl. He still struggles with D-line especially, but the O-line has produced less than desirable results too. Maybe we need to fucus in the draft on 100% healthy players with no injury history. I believe it's time to restock the shelves with quality backups and exceptional role players, which is where we were seriously lacking last year.

If we can move up for a DT or OG this year, I would be fine with that if the cost was only an additional mid to late round draft pick. Otherwise take the BPA and get the much-needed depth that we were missing last year.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

If the value is there, trade up. Why not.

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Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Nope. Not even once. 25 trades as the Saints GM and all were up.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Every year it's the same **** and every year people *****. He started kicking the can for as long as I can remember. It never stops us from signing who we want and has yet to catch up with us. Bad FA signings and outrageous head scratching contracts (Peat) have been our Achilles heel. Some of our draft trades are questionable too but if Loomis wants to kick the can for the next 20 years it's fine by me.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Exactly, Dude! And with the ever growing cap it can, and probably will, go on for the next 20 years. Even after Loomis is gone it will likely be the normal way of cap management in the entire league. A lot has been learned since the early 90's when the cap was first introduced.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

There is the heretofore “Tried and True way” and the new way on approach business or industry, ie Tesla, Dell, Apple and dare I say the Saints. All three were industry disrupters / trend setters ahead of the stated norm.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Death, taxes and the cap going up are the only constants in life. Yeah, I know there was the covid year when the cap dropped. But, I've been brought back from the edge of death and got back a larger tax refund than expected. So, anything is possible.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

And because the cap keeps going up, Michael Thomas and Andrus Peat will keep paying a lot of taxes until they die, because Mickey Loomis will never be willing to take the cap hit to cut them, when he can always take a fraction of that cap hit the current year by keep them, and setting up a larger cap hit to move on the next year. Retirement is not certain. Neither will ever retire unless Loomis leaves first, because they will always have an offer restructure and extend.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You think Loomis keeps these players because of cap management issues. I think the issue is much simpler than that:

If you cut Peat and Thomas (and the others whose cans have been kicked down the road) who do you replace them with?

I know that it was 3 years ago, but MT13 was the NFL OPTY, could have been NFL MVP, and was the best receiver on the planet. Who do you get that can give you even half that type of production.

Same for Peat. Are you really willing to hope that a 2nd year guy that barely played and a upcoming drafted rookie can hold up the left side of the Saints offensive line? Peat is more than serviceable at guard and can play tackle in a pinch. So, where exactly does that versatility get replaced with?

What will eventually happen is a mid round draft pick or a UDFA will come along and perform better than the current starter. Shaheed for example. Or maybe someone like Kidd may develop this upcoming season. Then and only then will you see some of that movement you are looking for.

But the players recognize the changing landscape. Both MT13 and Peat took pay cuts to continue to play for the Saints. If they didn't, they would both be free agents.

I'm just not sure what you think the Saints should do instead. Should they literally never keep a veteran and release everyone to free agency after the 4th or 5th year? The Saints are paying proven players market value and then renegotiating when performance or availability drops below market value.

All I see that that you seem to want to complain about how the Saints do business. I'd be really interested in seeing how you think business should be done instead.

SFIAH

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I believe he wants to fire everybody, clean out the roster, and start over every year rather than having an actual plan and giving it time to come to fruition. I would like to hear his plan though, if he is willing to share with the rest of us.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I clicked on this thread expecting a lot more.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Me too.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I, unfortunately, had a feeling what was going to be at the end of the rabbit hole before I clicked.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Consider the source.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I want to start over once, which we have not done since 2005, because I don't believe we can contend for more than the NFC South without a rebuild and I think pretending we can will just lead to a harder crash. Yes, we won a Super Bowl in 2009-2010 but that was a long time ago, and many teams that have won more recently, and are therefore likely smarter, have embraced rebuilding or at least not maxing the cap every single year. The Rams won a year ago but are rebuilding now. The Chiefs took their foot off the gas pedal trading Tyreek Hill for picks and letting Honey Badger walk instead of extending him with a restructured contract to add cap room, and they won it all. Tampa cleaned how, cleared their cap, loaded up and got a ring, and now is tearing it down again. In the new NFL you can't win playing year to year unless you have a HOF type QB. Carr is not that. And even with one its tough. But other teams win by embracing austerity, tearing it all down, cleaning up their cap, and then going on epic spending sprees where they spend the current years cap and the next years cap all at once to field a super team. We can never spend the current years cap and the next years cap all it once, because we are in a position where without a rebuild we have always already maxxed the current years cap the previous year.

Here is my plan:

Fire Loomis and Hartley. They are less accomplished they Jerry Reese who has two rings more recently and they will receive zero interest and retire to golfing or xfl. Cut or trade older players even if they are good, including possibly Cam Jordan and/or Demario Davis. Cut or trade mid-career players who have likely reached their peak, are downhill from here, and many of whom off the field or injury issues like Kamara, Maye, Mathieu, and probably Lattimore. Take big cap hits to cut horrible contracts like Thomas, Peat, and Hill. Take all the cap hits ASAP don't stretch them out. Ellis and Olave are the sort of players we should keep. Draft a QB with athletic upside in the late first round or mid rounds. Look into a better coach, but realize no better coach may want the job with out cap and draft situation, and be willing to keep DA until we can offer a more attractive job. Trade back in the draft not up. Never sign Carr.

We would probably lose a lot of games in 2023 with a rebuild but you never know. The Falcons and Panthers embraced rebuilds in 2022 and have a lot more cap now and the Falcons cut players who were 3 years seperated from impressive offensive accomplishments, but both teams still almost won the division while rebuilding. With a good draft we could too. And I would find it more exciting to watch a young team with upside than a bunch of aging vets wondering if they have enough left in the tank to eek out the division and embaress themselves in the first round.

As for who we would replace Peat with, we will find out, because he is injured every year. Might as well give his replacement a full training camp because we will see his replacement. Peat would not make the roster on any other team in the NFL, he is the Cam Newton of guards, teams do see that if healthy he could maybe be the #32 left guard starter in the league, but they know he is old and injury prone and there is zero upside. As for MT, no player has ever come back from the string of missed games Thomas did. He is done. Michael Thomas was great in 2019 and Terrell Davis was great in 1998. But 2023 Michael Thomas is 2002 Terrell Davis, which is a golfer. He didn't test the market because he knew OBJ had contributed more recently and couldn't get more than $4 million, so us offering him $10-15 million was insane. Terrell Davis brought the Broncos 2 rings and they gave him 3 years of suckage where he only played 17 games and then they cut him loose. Michael Thomas brought us no rings, played on 10 games in 3 years, and we are giving him $10-15 million for a 4th year. The only explanation I can come up with with that Loomis and Hartley get percentage kickbacks under the table for these deals that destroy our teams chances.

If we aggressively rebuild, we can clean up our cap in 1-2 years, still have a chance in the NFC South during rebuild, and if we do lose a lot, we will get very high draft picks. Either way we emerge in 2024 or 2025 with a clean salary cap, young high draft pick players, zero dead cap, zero old injury prone players, and we are an attractive destination for a young coach.

Had we rebuilt last year, perhaps we would have lost a few more games. Then maybe we are looking at drafting Stroud or Young. Maybe next year we could draft Williams if we don't trade the pick. To me that is more exciting than the fanciful notion that Derek Carr is a super bowl QB with Peat and Panning blocking for him and magically staying healthy. We need to get back to where we were 2006-2012 with a young team, not keep running on fumes.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Seems like this would gut your team all to serve 2 purposes:

1) Fire Loomis and Hartley

2) Clear up a cap problem that may not exist

Your plan leaves too many questions. Who is new GM? Coach? QB? etc. What you propose requires rebuilding the entire team. We aren’t that poor a franchise. When we finish with a top 3 pick is when you think about a rebuild.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Bako you will be less than happy for the foreseeable future because "The Saints Front Office and The Saints Process" will more than likely not change anytime soon.

If your dream team organizational process is really as you described in your post. Then maybe one of the current NFL teams involved in a front office, coaching staff and roster change, Houston, Tampa Bay and Atlanta are a better match to your beliefs.

Best part is we should be able to see what's what by January 2024.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

When it comes to Bako I believe you nailed with those two takes, Boston.

He believes there is a cap problem because it appears he cannot fathom the dynamics involved. And firing those responsible is the only way to make the incomprehensible fear go away. The fallacy here is that whenever Loomis and Harley ever do move on those that succeed them are likely to continue with the very same logical methodology and his illogical nightmare will continue.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

i’m sure not going to say I agree with all the moves Loomis Has made throughout his tenure. But going into “rebuild mode “is a bit drastic. So many teams like the Jets, the Browns, the Bears, etc have had multiple early picks to get their franchise QB and “rebuild” and have failed. It’s just not that easy. When you have a franchise like Pittsburg or Green Bay or New Orleans, you try to put your best team on the field. The Rams and Tampa both did that, caught lighting in a bottle (ref help) and won Championships.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Who is the new GM?: A monkey, ChatGPT, let Cesar Ruiz be the GM since he learned to play Guard in a year?? I don't care. I am sure there are many qualified front office #2 guys around the league who would be better. Loomis is the worst GM in the league. He has no qualifications and coasted to the position on the backs of Payton who was hired by Benson and Brees who was hired by Payton. He is just a guy who got lucky once and can't rebuild.

Coach?: Someone with a record above .400 on their previous resume.

QB?: A draft pick who won't cost more than Maholmes in 2025 and hasn't already proven his mediocrity. Take the Tom Brady approach and try a mid round pick, not the Drew Bledsoe approach hoping a 9 year old dog will learn new tricks.

Most teams go through rebuilds. KC went through a mini-rebuild last year trading a star WR for picks and lettings some vets go. The Rams went through a rebuild prior to their 2018-2022 run, thats how they had the money to add guys like Ramsey and Miller. Now that same Rams GM is going through a rebuild again. The Bucs also went through a rebuild, had amongst the most salary cap in the league when they added Brady and went on a spending spree and got a ring because they had the room under the cap to do it, now they got a ring and are rebuilding again. Boston and Guido need to turn on a TV and start following the NFL. 9-8, 7-10, you can get that without a rebuild. But to fire on all cylinders sometimes you need to take a year off to reload.

We will never finish with a top 3 pick, the teams we trade our picks to will get the top 3 pick. We will get some raw small college prospect with a great youtube reel who we traded up to 15th to grab who gets hurt in camp, and the team we trade our 1st rounder to so we can do that will get a top 3 pick.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Don't tell me what I can and cannot fathom you insufferable glob of human trash. Just like your mother could fathom selling herself for a $20 bill I can fathom exactly the dynamics involved in the modern salary cap. Any team can always lived on borrowed money to dig out of debt for other borrowed money and field a .500-ish team. But living on borrowed money required contracts structured in a way where all your big gambles are 'un-cut-able' which leads to zombie cap spend on schlubs like Michael Thomas and Andrus Peat who don't contribute but you can't afford to move on. Whey you are so leveraged you depend on restructuring every big contract to get under the cap, which makes all the dead cap hits if you cut them giant, you can't even afford to pay your stars what the contract said each year, so paying more than that to get out of the contracts long term is impossible, so you become the team that would see Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Antonio Brown, Ezekiel Elliot, etc through, not just to the end of their disaster contracts that other teams cut, but that would actually extend them to stay longer to soften the cap hits. You just can't win that way long term.

Also, spending the 2023 cap in 2022 and spending the 2024 cap in 2023 may put you on a level playing field with other teams, maybe even give you 10% more to spend (though like I said, you will be spending a lot of it on bad decisions you can't escape like Peat and Thomas, so really its a bad deal), but level playing field gets you .500 not a ring. A team that spent their 2022 salary cap to fund 2022 has an option we don't have. If they think 2023 is their year, they can spend the 2023 cap and the 2024 cap in 2023. They can convert from their way to our way, and in that leap year or two, they can spend more than you could normally spend in either way. They can make a run, win the race for a ring, and then walk it off and rebuild. By always being leveraged to the max, we can't make a run by going into leverage when the window is there and making a lot of additions all at once around a young core. Thats how most rings are won these days, and you missed it idolizing looming and spanking your monkey about a 13yo ring.

What you don't seem to get, when you see other teams 'imitating our brilliant strategy' is that they are not doing it long term, they are trying to time a window. They are young and have cap room so they max out and they leverage up and they try to time the window. Often they can get a ring. When the leverage is too much, and the see a decline like going from 12-4 to 9-8 to 7-10, they rebuild and cut their bad contracts and aging players and stockpile some draft picks. Then they do it all again. But Mickey Loomis can't fathom this any more than he can fathom why other people don't start drinking at breakfast.

A good example of logical thinking is this piece on the Rams. They are doing exactly what I explain.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-to-pull-back/

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I removed you from my ignore list just to read this crap? I've been following the NFL longer than you have been alive. I watched my Saints go through 35 years of annual rebuilds before the current front office took residence. In those 21 years the Saints have had ONE season with fewer than 7 wins. In case you forgot, that was during the Katrina year of hell.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

You should ignore me. I am part of reality, which you are ignoring already. Being old does not make you smart. Al Davis was old. Mickey Loomis was old.

The only reason the Saints won 7 games last year was incredible luck. They happened to play in a historically inept division. Their 7th win came against a team playing a lousy backup QB who would have killed them with their starter. They lost to every QB who one could imagine as a super bowl contender and only beat the bad QBs who were unproven rookies, journeyman, injured, backups, or on the way to being benched.

Brees and Payton were why we won. Loomis had nothing to do with it. All Loomis did was bankrupt our cap which is why Payton left even for a bad job others turned down.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Lovely. You are very disturbed, son. :rolleyes: It's hard to respect the opinion of someone who calls your mother a cheap whore. Grow up.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I didn't ask you to respect me. I called your mother a cheap whore because you already don't respect me. When you say someone can't fathom something, you are saying they are stupid, but you are doing so in the round about way of a coward. I don't like that. If you are going to call me stupid call call me stupid, don't dance around it in your pink leotard. So you called me stupid, and I called you stupid and called your mother a whore. I won't let you insult me and pretend you are not insulting me. All I did was make it real. You actually should respect that.

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Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

WTAF!

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

So again, it’s more anti Loomis rant than any real answers. You have no basis for calling Loomis the worst GM in the league. His team has never finished last. His team has won a SB and would have a second if not for the refs. The worst GM in football doesn’t do that.

You say they were lucky to win 7 last year. I say they were unlucky to ONLY win 7. Refs gave both TB games to Brady. That’s 9 wins there and a playoff birth. It amazes me how you outright refuse to give any credit to his accomplishments. But hey, each their own.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Hatred clouds minds, Boston.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Boston there is no point in continuing any discussion with this type of hate filled babble. When we respond to his post the more hateful and detached his position becomes. Back on the band list for me and never to engage in secondhand posting again.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

You are probably right and I don’t expect to change his mind. Others might benefit from reading our back and forth though. Logic should trump his baseless hatred in other users’ minds. I just don’t like using the ban feature. I’ve never been a fan of denying someone a platform I guess.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Past time to move on FOR me … just saying.

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Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

Fine but saying I cannot 'fathom' something is also a belittlement and a disparagement. Its just a lamer one.

My objections to Mickey Loomis' cap strategy have been laid out a million times. It causes us to lose quality young and prime players like Williams, Ellis, Hendrickson, Armstead, etc, forces us to keep players with chronic injury and off the field issues like Thomas, Peat, Maye, etc, losing prime free agents, shopping the bargain bin for aging replacements, and never being able to move on from players who are not available and are a bad fit. But AG ignores these objections. All he can see with his rose colored glasses are that we got under the cap so haha Nick Wright is a loser. He does not address my core objections except to say Peat is amazing contributor who is perfect for our system and can't be replaced and we had no use for Williams and Hendrickson.

Do I hate. Yes! I hate losing. What did we do last year? Lose! Exactly the number of losses I predicted. What will we do the next two year minimum because of Loomis' refusal to rebuild? Keep losing. So yeah, I hate that.

Look at the Panthers. Everything they have the past year, we could have done. Now they have the #1 overall pick in the 2023 draft and after that rookie's development year, they have $106 million more in 2024 cap space than we do. Sorry if I am so crazy to say I hate thats them not us. They didn't have to go 0-17. They had the same record as us in 2022 but they didn't trade their 1st round pick and they didn't go all in on signing aging veterans. What is insane to me is thinking our GM is doing a better job because we have a slightly better chance to get to lose a wildcard game this year maybe, while the Panthers went through a rebuild with the same record as our 'all-in' strategy and emerged with the #1 overall pick in a good QB draft and tons of available cap space in 2024.

Re: Saints Likely To Trade 2024 1st Round Pick
 

I fail to see why Carolina is an example of who we should model ourselves after. They certainly have done no better than Loomis over the last 20 years. Carolina last had a winning season in 2017 when they lost to us in the playoffs. No SBs. Comparing their cap situation to ours is apples and oranges since they’ve had multiple 5 win seasons recently while we were fielding winning teams.