Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

If Turner needs surgery, it must be a torn ligament.

It's kind of a bad luck injury. Agreed with you all, however, he needs to be available. Let's see what Lalos can bring in live bullets.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

I'm going to say it, the Payton Turner injury is all on the Saints. There is substantial evidence the turf in the dome is a major contributor, should have replaced it during the offseason. If cost is an issue, then Mrs. B can foot the bill for it.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

My Post-Mortem

The Good (What went well):

DC4- Aside from some forced throws, our new QB stepped up after a nearly non-existent run game and made some killer throws. The Deep Ball Threat has finally returned to New Orleans!

Gruppe- I feel like we have a young Will Lutz! Solid opening performance.

Jordon and the D line- Pressure, Pressure, and more Pressure on the opposing backfield. Batted passes, altered throws, and jamming Henry's lanes to facilitate gang tackling. Love this front!

Olave and the Receiving corps- NFL DB's better take notice. Any of these guys can hurt you if you give them half a step!

The Bad (Needs Immediate Improvement):

Penning- His footwork was nothing short of atrocious, leaving him out of position and getting beat out-right by DE's all game. Too late for OJT so coaches need to come up with some blocking schemes to give him help until eventual improvement evolves!

Williams- Not the Run Breaker that he looked like in Detroit. Not sure if this was the result of Carmichael's play calling, lack of rushing holes in a surprisingly tough Titans D line, a lack of pre-season reps to knock off the cobwebs, or a combination thereof. With 2 more games until AK41 returns and no other options, this has to get on track immediately.

Special Teams- Kick coverages need to block, tackle, and avoid committing fouls better if they are to be one of our strengths. (Caveat: Nice job blocking that punt! Gotta love Gleason was there to see that!)

The Ugly (What went Unacceptably Wrong):

Officiating- Has NFL officiating turned into NCAA Basketball? Admittedly, they effed up on the Carr 'pushed loose ball' fumble call. But to have a BS make up no call on that Olave PTI gave me flashbacks to the now infamous Rams Playoff game! The League really should have these guys on payroll and if they suck...fire them!

The Superdome Turf- With all of the $$$ spent on improvements to the suites and the fan experience, why hasn't anyone addressed the Home Field turf issues? Last year Trevor Penning, Deonte Harty, and Michael Thomas were just some of the players who suffered turf toe injuries on home turf. Now Turner, who will likely need surgery for yet another Turf toe injury from yesterday's game. If the same thing is happening around the league in other stadiums using the same turf, then change it out!

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

At some point, the facilities team really needs to look at the turf they're using as the culprit in these injuries. Penning, Thomas, and Harty all had TT injuries last year. Now Turner in Game 1. If other team fields are having the same issues, you know what the problem is.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titana
 

Correct - the officiating sucked. I don't disagree that the Saints were both benefited and harmed by calls today. I am not saying we were screwed over (although i have seen it happen MANY times) - I'm saying the refs look bush league.





I just wonder if the NFL will ever be able to lock down 1) what is a catch 2) what is pass interference 3) when a player is down or OOB


Every year the rules seem to waver - adds for a lot of room for the outcome/scores of games to be manipulated.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Alright, one in the books.

Offense - meh, I do feel they will improve once they sync.

Jamaal Williams- you see what he is- solid #2, north south runner, I don't think he likes that #1 role

Michael Thomas- nice return to form, shows why he was one of the best before, in this game he was a great competitor, hopefully stays healthy to be part of moving the ball around

Shaheed - needs to learn to fair catch once in a while, had moments of flash, glad for him he was an active part of gameplan, needs to be more consistent

Olave - nice first game, played as expected, obviously a major contributor to this win

Carr - think he will settle in, first time playing as a team in live game facing all situations, hopefully next game continues to sync more like in 2nd half, tough guy took a major shot and looked unphased

Penning Yikes, horrible showing, if the plan is to give more time better get him some help during blocking

Defense - uncontested game ball, excellent opening game, got turnovers we so missed last year.

Lattimore Beast, dominated and showed why he may be one of the best players in the league

Davis Excellent leadership and great assist guy to Taylor, tackled with the best of 'em

Taylor Decent game, worked well in support

Win is a win, toughness on showcase, inconsistent on offense, if defense continues this way it could be the best in the league

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

FYI. They completely replaced the playing surface this off-season.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

As I mentioned earlier, the turf is brand new. I have also read that most of the blame on foot and toe injuries lies with the shoes being used by players today. Shoes are one of the few items that are left up to the discretion of the players. They are getting lighter and less supportive.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

I'd like to see Baldy breakdown the Saints interior defense line.

I thought Roach had a low key good game. Same goes for Breesse. In the game day chat, I mentioned he was getting in (1/2 sack in the books). Once he puts it all together, he's is going to be something else.

For the most part, Derick Henry was held (68 yards) in check.

If you get a chance to re watch the game, Cam & Carl were exceptional for 4 quarters.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

As posted earlier, if surgery is required to fix it, it's a torn tendon/ligament. The shoe angle is a valid one. Also the physical make up of the player. If it were entirely the turf as the culprit, the entire team may be injured. Cameron Jordan has managed to not incur such an injury. What makes him so special?

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Final stats for Bryan Bresee :

2 QB hits
1/2 sack (just missed Tanneyhill a couple of times)
1 tackle

^^^ accomplished this with only 26 total snaps

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Observation: Victory cigars taste better.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Glad we got the win at home. A lot of other teams were not so lucky - KC, MIN, CHI, NYG, PIT, etc. That was too close. I would've been punching the air if we lost to a team that beat us using 6 field goals!

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

From everything I've read, yes the rug itself was replaced as it is just about every year. To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

He certainly started that way when they drafted him, but I can't even give him that much credit. At least Davenport flashed at times, Turner never seems to. Davenport especially hurt because it cost 2 first round picks, but overall Turner seems to be even worse of a pick.

Obviously Sean Payton had some outstanding drafts here, but his final 1st round pick as Saints HC was dreadful. He went way off the board with it too, which makes it even worse.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

I believe this article may refute that.

Return to Play Following High-Grade Turf Toe Injuries in National Football League AthletesBiomechanical Comparison of Arthroscopic SMC Knot Constructs

Turf toe is a common injury, particularly among high level football players.4 These injuries were first described in 1976 in collegiate football players at the University of West Virginia as a hyperextension injury to the plantar plate of the first metatarsophalangeal (MTP) joint. They noted an incidence of 5.4 turf toe injuries per season.1 A survey of 80 athletes in the National Football League (NFL) found that 45% had sustained turf toe injuries previously.2 This injury was originally described in athletes competing only on artificial surfaces, but a later study demonstrated that turf toe occurred equally among athletes participating on modern artificial turf and natural grass.3

Also this study:

Outcome of Turf Toe Injuries in NFL Players

This was a retrospective review to identify all NFL players who sustained a turf toe injury during the seasons 2011-2014. Players with first MTP capsular ligamentous complex injury were identified through a review of online resources including NFL injury reports, player registries, game summary sites, NFL news and the Fantasy Doctors database.

Seventy-one turf toe injuries were identified. Twenty-nine occurred on grass, 29 on turf and the playing surface of 13 injuries could not be identified.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Turner was the only injury. For now. Fingers crossed that we don't lose a player each game.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

DeMario Davis is one of my favorite Saints players--just behind Brees. His story should be all over the sports websites this morning.
Regardless, he's an awesome human being.


edit:
We all need encouragement. That was a great speech and helps me keep things in perspective. Especially now as I'm going through some challenging situations.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least.

NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear

Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury

Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries?

Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field.

Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

The graph you show was kind of cherry picking 2021 data and stating 'mission accomplished.' But if you look at all 4 years, the injuries on artificial turf were 21% higher 2018, 33% higher in 2019, 17% higher in 2020, and 1% higher in 2021. Obviously 1% higher is not statistically significant but the long term average of 20% higher is.

Sure enough, in 2022 the injury rate on turf was actually 37% higher than on grass. Goodell and his goon squad were being incredibly cynical and abusive to gas light players over one outlier year in 2021 where the injury rates were the same and ignore the long term 20% higher average for injuries on turf.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...tly-safer-turf

If shoes are part of the problem too, lets address that. Lets put shoe clauses in our players contracts or scout players based on shoe preference or whatever it takes to not lose two 1st round picks to turf toe in 2 years. But clearly turf is less safe. Probably the turf salesman says its great and buys someone in the front office a double at a nice restaurant bar, but we need to cut him off.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday.

If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

So no significant difference has been shown.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

No, a 20% higher injury rate has been shown on turf but that 20% higher rate long term manifests as a 1-37% rate year to year. From 2018 to present it was 21%, 33%, 17%, 1%, 37%. The NFL took out ads during the super bowl and bought space on the jumbotrons on time square to announce that the difference had disappeared and it was a closed issue when it went down to 1%, but that was just an outlier year and it went right back up. Turns out 1600 players who play on the stuff every day know a bit more than an old drunk named Jerry Jones who often forgets why he has rubber floors and hand rails throughout his bathroom and a little escalator chair on his stairs.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

Carr’s “fumble”was no worse than the tuck rule. The league regularly leans towards an incomplete pass call on those types of plays.

I didn’t think the defender demonstrated control of the ball inbounds on the fumble on the opening kickoff, but it was at least close.

The Non PI can in the 4th against Olave was the worst call/non call of the day.
The defender clearly dragged him down early while not playing the ball or looking back at all. They make that call and the game is sealed.

Apart from that, there were just numerous times I noticed our defensive ends getting dragged down that weren’t called. It just seem like frequently we get a play in our favor, like the Shaheed sweep run that was called back the stop on third down that was extended by holding on the Tipped pass play. I honestly felt the calls went their way more than the Saints.

Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans
 

A lot of bad calls went against us too. There was a long pass with clear early contact that was not called PI, then on the next series the Titans get a ticky tack PI to extend their drive. Titans were holding all day. The refs made bad calls all day and they face no accountability. Anyone who says they should face accountability or be second guessed gets to lead the league in penalties against for several years.

I think the refs want to completely eliminate instant replay. They dont care about getting the call right, in fact they pride themselves in their power to get it wrong. Thats why they killed replay of pass interference. In this case Carr clearly fumbled. It was clearly Titans ball. But the refs had ruled it an incomplete pass on the field and stopped the return. So they let the call stand on replay even though replay clearly showed the call was wrong. Now they can produce stats that show most calls are not reversed on replay, and try to exclude more critical plays from instant replay. All to lower our sensitivity to bad calls, so when playoff season comes they can get those big checks for helping out the large markets.