Question for the Forum

Danno · 10-17-2023, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

No thank you to any complete rebuild. That's fine for fans at home that are either not vested or not invested in the team and can stomach multiple years of guaranteed losing carrying the hope that what is on the other side is any better than what we have today.

But those of us firmly vested and actually invested (season ticket holders) would the team remain competitive and continue to add pieces necessary to at least keep the hope alive. It's a hard sell to have people wanting to spend good money on tickets, transportation, lodgings, and food knowing that the team has essentially folded the tent and are hoping for a new reveal threee or years from now. That doesn't make good business sense.

The offense isn't anywhere near being a total train wreck. We have a banged up offensive line (again) and are experiencing extremely questionable offensive playcalling. There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of the talent however. Those other things are correctible. Whether they'll be corrected or not is another story

Why rebuild when we have one of the most talent laden rosters in the NFL?
It ain't the Billys and Joes, its the X's and O's!

Give Andy Reid this same exact team and we're in the NFCCG. We have the talent to win big, but the coaching... not so much.

BakoSaint · 10-18-2023, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

No thank you to any complete rebuild. That's fine for fans at home that are either not vested or not invested in the team and can stomach multiple years of guaranteed losing carrying the hope that what is on the other side is any better than what we have today.

But those of us firmly vested and actually invested (season ticket holders) would want the team to remain competitive and continue to add pieces necessary to at least keep the hope alive. It's a hard sell to have people wanting to spend good money on tickets, transportation, lodgings, and food knowing that the team has essentially folded the tent and are hoping for a new reveal three or years from now. That doesn't make good business sense.

The offense isn't anywhere near being a total train wreck. We have a banged up offensive line (again) and are experiencing extremely questionable offensive playcalling. There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of the talent however. Those other things are correctible. Whether they'll be corrected or not is another story

A complete rebuild is not guaranteed losing. Also a complete rebuild is impossible because if we cut all our expensive veterans in one year, which would be what one might think of as a complete rebuild, we would exceed the salary cap with all the dead money that would hit and have no way to get under it. If you are interested I can show you the math. We can actually get to about $40 million under the 2024 salary cap but if we cut Carr that would cost $40 million in one year dead money relative to the restructure, so we could not for example cut Carr and trade Lattimore and Jordan, the the math can't work to get under the cap with that. What we could do is start a process of letting go some expensive veterans now and taking some cap hits in the short term for cap relief long term, then continuing the process next year to the degree it makes sense based on 2024 results and player performances.

What this might look like is moving on from 3-4 players from a list like Thomas, Hill, Kamara, Peat, Mathieu, or Davis either via trade or release depending on the situation. Or maybe even trading Lattimore given that we have several promising young corners and it would be unusual for his performance or health not to decline in the next 2 years.

The reason this is not guaranteed losing is that sometimes youth movements work, and what we are doing now is not working. Tampa Bay moved on from a number of veterans this offseason and went with discount options and they are 3-2. Atlanta has moved on from many veterans over the last few years even taking costly cap hits to do it and is 3-3 the same as us. Arizona was accused of tanking and although they are 1-5 if you look at their schedule and ours, honestly they are playing just as well as us this year but have a much harder schedule and its hard to say the records would not be reversed if the schedules were. The LA Rams made a bunch of cap cuts and rebuilt this offseason moving on from Jalen Ramsey, Bobby Wagner, and Allen Robinson among others. They have also been largely without Cooper Kupp. They are 3-3 despite a much tougher schedule than ours and definite contenders. Last year the Panthers moved on from Christian McCafferey mid season and still ended up with the same record as us. This year the Panthers are in the tank, but not significantly moreso than the Bears who acquired the biggest player the Panthers traded away in the offseason, or the Giants or Broncos who went all in to win with pricey acquisitions like Waller or Wilson/Payton. The Packers are 2-3 but beat us and play in a harder division and they moved on from Davante Adams and Aaron Rodgers and are just as competitive as us. The Lions let Matthew Stafford and all their veteran receivers go and traded their high 1st round pick TE and they are looking like a top team. The Raiders let both Carr and Waller go, again same record as us. Last season the Kansas City Chiefs traded Tyreek Hill and let Tyrann Mathieu walk, and they won a ring. The Texans have the same record as us and just beat us after trading away pretty much all their stars and going with a youth movement. Seattle traded away Russ Wilson and their backup did better. Even the 49ers and Eagles got where they are partly by cutting expensive QBs and relying on young unproven ones. Rebuilding isn't a guarantee of losing. Sometimes the kids are good. Maybe Yiadom doesn't shut down Mike Evans on Monday Night Football, but maybe he does shut down less famous receivers on Sunday afternoon in the 4th quarter. Maybe a cheap QB option like Baker Mayfield beats an expensive one like Derek Carr. You still have to play the games even if you don't spend money like its going out of style. Sometimes holding on to every single veteran you possibly can because its cheaper on a 1 year basis to restructure over and over every year is not the recipe to win it all.

While it doesn't guarantee losing, rebuilding does guarantee new opportunities. Moving on from veterans means acquiring draft picks and having more roster spots to give young players a chance. It also frees up cap space after the first year to make big moves when you are within reach of the title and opportunistically add players after draft/cuts or at the trade deadline.

Rell&Gold · 10-17-2023, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Unless the bottom completely falls out, Allen is safe. Matter of fact, if he can get this team to 9 wins he may be considered a genius. That offense is a complete train wreck and needs a complete rebuild, starting from the coaches on down to the players.

O had the Saints at 9-10 wins during the offseason. Since week 2 I have them at 6-8 wins

Sinner · 10-17-2023, 01:55 PM

THIS would definitely be the Season.

rezburna · 10-17-2023, 03:54 PM

I’m fine keeping Allen for the remainder of the season. We can let him go at the end of the year. Pete Carmichael needs to go now. Elevate Ronald Curry or bring in Byron Leftwich. In transparency, bringing in a Black offensive coordinator would boost the morale of most of the leaders on this team (Kamara, Thomas, Jordan, etc.), but any change at all would be a good thing. I’d be fine with Jon Gruden as well.

Danno · 10-17-2023, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I’m fine keeping Allen for the remainder of the season. We can let him go at the end of the year. Pete Carmichael needs to go now. Elevate Ronald Curry or bring in Byron Leftwich. In transparency, bringing in a Black offensive coordinator would boost the morale of most of the leaders on this team (Kamara, Thomas, Jordan, etc.), but any change at all would be a good thing. I’d be fine with Jon Gruden as well.

I'd be fine keeping Allen if he brought in a good OC. Let Allen run the defense and let his new OC have total control over the offense. I'd be OK with that.

leilung · 10-17-2023, 04:02 PM

Leftwich would be my pick. He's ready to run it.

iceshack149 · 10-17-2023, 04:04 PM

I'd be fine trying Curry out. Carmichael ain't it.

AsylumGuido · 10-17-2023, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by iceshack149

I'd be fine trying Curry out. Carmichael ain't it.

I tend to agree.

Cruize · 10-17-2023, 04:19 PM

This team has too much talent to have a .500 record. That comes down to coaching. Pete is the problem. Allen is unwilling or unable to fix the problem. I would pull the trigger if the Saints aren't two games above .500 at the break.

10-17-2023, 03:42 PM	#1
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,751	Re: Question for the Forum Originally Posted by AsylumGuido No thank you to any complete rebuild. That's fine for fans at home that are either not vested or not invested in the team and can stomach multiple years of guaranteed losing carrying the hope that what is on the other side is any better than what we have today. But those of us firmly vested and actually invested (season ticket holders) would the team remain competitive and continue to add pieces necessary to at least keep the hope alive. It's a hard sell to have people wanting to spend good money on tickets, transportation, lodgings, and food knowing that the team has essentially folded the tent and are hoping for a new reveal threee or years from now. That doesn't make good business sense. The offense isn't anywhere near being a total train wreck. We have a banged up offensive line (again) and are experiencing extremely questionable offensive playcalling. There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of the talent however. Those other things are correctible. Whether they'll be corrected or not is another story Why rebuild when we have one of the most talent laden rosters in the NFL? It ain't the Billys and Joes, its the X's and O's! Give Andy Reid this same exact team and we're in the NFCCG. We have the talent to win big, but the coaching... not so much. iceshack149, jnormand, Crusader and 3 others like this.

10-18-2023, 10:04 PM	#2
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,347	Re: Question for the Forum Originally Posted by AsylumGuido No thank you to any complete rebuild. That's fine for fans at home that are either not vested or not invested in the team and can stomach multiple years of guaranteed losing carrying the hope that what is on the other side is any better than what we have today. But those of us firmly vested and actually invested (season ticket holders) would want the team to remain competitive and continue to add pieces necessary to at least keep the hope alive. It's a hard sell to have people wanting to spend good money on tickets, transportation, lodgings, and food knowing that the team has essentially folded the tent and are hoping for a new reveal three or years from now. That doesn't make good business sense. The offense isn't anywhere near being a total train wreck. We have a banged up offensive line (again) and are experiencing extremely questionable offensive playcalling. There's nothing wrong with the vast majority of the talent however. Those other things are correctible. Whether they'll be corrected or not is another story A complete rebuild is not guaranteed losing. Also a complete rebuild is impossible because if we cut all our expensive veterans in one year, which would be what one might think of as a complete rebuild, we would exceed the salary cap with all the dead money that would hit and have no way to get under it. If you are interested I can show you the math. We can actually get to about $40 million under the 2024 salary cap but if we cut Carr that would cost $40 million in one year dead money relative to the restructure, so we could not for example cut Carr and trade Lattimore and Jordan, the the math can't work to get under the cap with that. What we could do is start a process of letting go some expensive veterans now and taking some cap hits in the short term for cap relief long term, then continuing the process next year to the degree it makes sense based on 2024 results and player performances. What this might look like is moving on from 3-4 players from a list like Thomas, Hill, Kamara, Peat, Mathieu, or Davis either via trade or release depending on the situation. Or maybe even trading Lattimore given that we have several promising young corners and it would be unusual for his performance or health not to decline in the next 2 years. The reason this is not guaranteed losing is that sometimes youth movements work, and what we are doing now is not working. Tampa Bay moved on from a number of veterans this offseason and went with discount options and they are 3-2. Atlanta has moved on from many veterans over the last few years even taking costly cap hits to do it and is 3-3 the same as us. Arizona was accused of tanking and although they are 1-5 if you look at their schedule and ours, honestly they are playing just as well as us this year but have a much harder schedule and its hard to say the records would not be reversed if the schedules were. The LA Rams made a bunch of cap cuts and rebuilt this offseason moving on from Jalen Ramsey, Bobby Wagner, and Allen Robinson among others. They have also been largely without Cooper Kupp. They are 3-3 despite a much tougher schedule than ours and definite contenders. Last year the Panthers moved on from Christian McCafferey mid season and still ended up with the same record as us. This year the Panthers are in the tank, but not significantly moreso than the Bears who acquired the biggest player the Panthers traded away in the offseason, or the Giants or Broncos who went all in to win with pricey acquisitions like Waller or Wilson/Payton. The Packers are 2-3 but beat us and play in a harder division and they moved on from Davante Adams and Aaron Rodgers and are just as competitive as us. The Lions let Matthew Stafford and all their veteran receivers go and traded their high 1st round pick TE and they are looking like a top team. The Raiders let both Carr and Waller go, again same record as us. Last season the Kansas City Chiefs traded Tyreek Hill and let Tyrann Mathieu walk, and they won a ring. The Texans have the same record as us and just beat us after trading away pretty much all their stars and going with a youth movement. Seattle traded away Russ Wilson and their backup did better. Even the 49ers and Eagles got where they are partly by cutting expensive QBs and relying on young unproven ones. Rebuilding isn't a guarantee of losing. Sometimes the kids are good. Maybe Yiadom doesn't shut down Mike Evans on Monday Night Football, but maybe he does shut down less famous receivers on Sunday afternoon in the 4th quarter. Maybe a cheap QB option like Baker Mayfield beats an expensive one like Derek Carr. You still have to play the games even if you don't spend money like its going out of style. Sometimes holding on to every single veteran you possibly can because its cheaper on a 1 year basis to restructure over and over every year is not the recipe to win it all. While it doesn't guarantee losing, rebuilding does guarantee new opportunities. Moving on from veterans means acquiring draft picks and having more roster spots to give young players a chance. It also frees up cap space after the first year to make big moves when you are within reach of the title and opportunistically add players after draft/cuts or at the trade deadline.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,347

10-17-2023, 06:15 PM	#3
Rell&Gold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Washington, D.C Posts: 2,891	Re: Question for the Forum Originally Posted by MatthewT Unless the bottom completely falls out, Allen is safe. Matter of fact, if he can get this team to 9 wins he may be considered a genius. That offense is a complete train wreck and needs a complete rebuild, starting from the coaches on down to the players. O had the Saints at 9-10 wins during the offseason. Since week 2 I have them at 6-8 wins MatthewT likes this.

10-17-2023, 01:55 PM	#4
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,065	Re: Question for the Forum THIS would definitely be the Season. iceshack149 and K Major like this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,065

10-17-2023, 03:54 PM	#5
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,020	Re: Question for the Forum I’m fine keeping Allen for the remainder of the season. We can let him go at the end of the year. Pete Carmichael needs to go now. Elevate Ronald Curry or bring in Byron Leftwich. In transparency, bringing in a Black offensive coordinator would boost the morale of most of the leaders on this team (Kamara, Thomas, Jordan, etc.), but any change at all would be a good thing. I’d be fine with Jon Gruden as well. bobdog86 and Rell&Gold like this.

10-17-2023, 03:57 PM	#6
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,751	Re: Question for the Forum Originally Posted by rezburna I’m fine keeping Allen for the remainder of the season. We can let him go at the end of the year. Pete Carmichael needs to go now. Elevate Ronald Curry or bring in Byron Leftwich. In transparency, bringing in a Black offensive coordinator would boost the morale of most of the leaders on this team (Kamara, Thomas, Jordan, etc.), but any change at all would be a good thing. I’d be fine with Jon Gruden as well. I'd be fine keeping Allen if he brought in a good OC. Let Allen run the defense and let his new OC have total control over the offense. I'd be OK with that. Rell&Gold likes this.

10-17-2023, 04:02 PM	#7
leilung Booty Bandit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Wastelands that are NJ Posts: 1,421	Re: Question for the Forum Leftwich would be my pick. He's ready to run it. Rell&Gold likes this.

10-17-2023, 04:04 PM	#8
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,368 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Question for the Forum I'd be fine trying Curry out. Carmichael ain't it. leilung likes this.

10-17-2023, 04:09 PM	#9
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,573	Re: Question for the Forum Originally Posted by iceshack149 I'd be fine trying Curry out. Carmichael ain't it. I tend to agree. Rell&Gold likes this.

10-17-2023, 04:19 PM	#10
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,459	Re: Question for the Forum This team has too much talent to have a .500 record. That comes down to coaching. Pete is the problem. Allen is unwilling or unable to fix the problem. I would pull the trigger if the Saints aren't two games above .500 at the break.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,459