Who Are The Right People Really?

BakoSaint · 12-28-2023, 06:46 PM

There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale.

Sinner · 12-28-2023, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale.

Salient points, well articulated.

neugey · 12-28-2023, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale.

We are basically the 2023 Mets with shoulder pads. And without the fire sale.

AsylumGuido · 12-28-2023, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale.

Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL.

Sinner · 12-28-2023, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL.

The difference is, more and more franchises are still going to WIN GAMES and get into the PLAYOFFS, while WE WON’T.

Rugby Saint II · 12-29-2023, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sinner

The difference is, more and more franchises are still going to WIN GAMES and get into the PLAYOFFS, while WE WON’T.

Cap management is not the reason we won't be in the playoffs again this year. The accounting can work with good coaches.....like when we had Payton and Brees in the building and so went all in every year. The accounting system could work because I think Loomis built a good foundation going into the season. However, our coaches,....especially the coach formerly affectionately known a DA handed us a big old **** sandwich!

The cap ain't the problem. It's the coaching.

Sinner · 12-29-2023, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Cap management is not the reason we won't be in the playoffs again this year. The accounting can work with good coaches.....like when we had Payton and Brees in the building and so went all in every year. The accounting system could work because I think Loomis built a good foundation going into the season. However, our coaches,....especially the coach formerly affectionately known a DA handed us a big old **** sandwich!

The cap ain't the problem. It's the coaching.

It’s the whole SHE BANG, from the top - down.

K Major · 12-30-2023, 10:28 AM

Thus far the Saints are 2-3 during a critical stretch "character reveal" as Mickey Loomis (per his interview with Hoss on WWL) proclaimed.

I surely hope he's been taking good notes.

Big picture, I hope this front office is committed to making serious changes in January otherwise, you will stay on the mediocrity boat.

neugey · 12-30-2023, 11:16 AM

The over-the-cap and dead-money issues in and of itself is not the big problem. It's the roster inflexibility and gridlock that comes with it.

BakoSaint · 12-30-2023, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL.

The top 4 teams in current Super Bowl odds, the 49ers, Ravens, Eagles, and Chiefs, who are all under the 2024 salary cap, would be fascinated to know that the Saints are the future of the NFL according to some guy named Guido. 8 teams are currently over the 2024 salary cap by a total of ~$260 million. We are $87 million over, which is 1/3 of the dollars over the 2024 salary cap for the entire league. Meanwhile the other 24 teams in the league are a combined $933 million under the 2024 salary cap including the top 4 teams in the league.

I don't even know that 8 teams being over the next years salary cap, only 4 by over $25 million / 10%, in late December, is even an increasing trend. Do you know that there were not 4 teams 10% over the 2004 salary cap on 12/30/2003? Maybe Mickey Loomis's 'innovation' only appeared to be an increasing trend during covid when the cap dropped and other normally responsible teams needed to borrow short term, and now they are all going back to normal where the Saints once again stand out with 1/3rd of the cap deficit for the entire 32 team league. Or maybe there is a slight uptick in cap borrowing among desperate and loser teams just like the tide pod challenge took off. But just because at one time the tide pod challenge was an increasing trend does not mean its the future of nutritional excellence. To determine the future you can't just look at trends you have to look at outcomes, and in either case the outcome is fans needing to have their stomachs pumped.

If you look at the other teams that are over the cap there is a pattern. None are over the 2024 cap by half what the Saints are, the Bills are like 49.9% at the 2nd biggest spender. Many of the other teams over the cap are winners but not 1st tier winners. They are the teams that woulda coulda shoulda and are getting desperate. Just behind the Saints at $87 million over you have the Bills who keep coming in as Miss Congeniality behind the Chiefs or Bengals and have gotten to a desperate stage to make it happen now or never with a running QB who is not getting younger. Then you have the Dolphins who have spent big to bring on Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Ramsey, Armstead etc to win now knowing Tua is one concussion from retirement and on his rookie contract and have been hyping themselves but unable to win. Then you have the Chargers who are incredible underachievers. The Broncos who are under extreme pressure with the bust trade for Wilson. The Cowboys who already fold in December and the playoffs. The Browns who buster on Watson. The Steelers who are struggling to stay relevant after Big Ben. Essentially all the teams over the 2024 cap are desperate underachievers with their coaches and/or GMs job security a subject of open discussions, teams that are not confident in what they have, and feel obligated to put it all on the table to win now and damn the consequences while everyone knows the true favorites are teams under the cap and confident like the Chiefs, 49ers, and Eagles. And even of those desperate teams no other team is half as desperate as us, most are less than 1/4 as desperate, and we are among the furthest from winning, with among the worst quarterbacks.

I would say the trend in the NFL is you try to build a stable sustainable contender by staying at or under future salary caps. If your team continually comes up just short and fans are losing patience you go all in for a year or two and try to get lucky. But if that doesn't work you rebuild, because if you are going all in every year, going all in does not give you any edge, its just taking on new debts to pay off old debts with the same mediocrity, and leaves you in a position where if you do get to second tier, you have no cushion to go more all-in to get to first tier.

12-28-2023, 06:46 PM	#31
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale. MatthewT, neugey, SmashMouth and 2 others like this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173

12-28-2023, 06:51 PM	#32
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by BakoSaint There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale. Salient points, well articulated. SmashMouth and K Major like this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952

12-28-2023, 07:07 PM	#33
neugey Hu Dat! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,715 Blog Entries: 13	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by BakoSaint There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale. We are basically the 2023 Mets with shoulder pads. And without the fire sale. SmashMouth and Sinner like this.

12-28-2023, 07:09 PM	#34
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by BakoSaint There is a difference between flooring it on the straight aways versus taping a lead weight to the accelerator all the way around the track. Of course other teams use restructures as a credit facility to go all in when they see their window if they think they are one player away. But that is very different than what we do, 100% maxxing out the credit card every season forever. We are basically twice as much over the cap as any other team. The Eagles are leveraged a lot too with restructures, but they play the long game in other ways with draft trades to accumulate picks. And they are in their window, having just lost the Super Bowl on the final plays. And we are far more over the 2024 cap. The Chiefs won the Super Bowl and totally ignore our model, they have many players on original base salaries and let expensive aging vets move on. Meanwhile the Rams and Bucs, the other two most recent winners, went all in win now, won, and then rebuilt. Yet still in rebuilding they are both better than us. The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, and Ravens are already under the 2024 cap, we are $87 million over. We are not trend setters. We are a cautionary tale. Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL.

12-28-2023, 07:18 PM	#35
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL. The difference is, more and more franchises are still going to WIN GAMES and get into the PLAYOFFS, while WE WON’T. SmashMouth and K Major like this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952

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12-29-2023, 05:29 PM	#36
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,073	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by Sinner The difference is, more and more franchises are still going to WIN GAMES and get into the PLAYOFFS, while WE WON’T. Cap management is not the reason we won't be in the playoffs again this year. The accounting can work with good coaches.....like when we had Payton and Brees in the building and so went all in every year. The accounting system could work because I think Loomis built a good foundation going into the season. However, our coaches,....especially the coach formerly affectionately known a DA handed us a big old **** sandwich! The cap ain't the problem. It's the coaching. mapcow likes this.

12-29-2023, 06:01 PM	#37
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Cap management is not the reason we won't be in the playoffs again this year. The accounting can work with good coaches.....like when we had Payton and Brees in the building and so went all in every year. The accounting system could work because I think Loomis built a good foundation going into the season. However, our coaches,....especially the coach formerly affectionately known a DA handed us a big old **** sandwich! The cap ain't the problem. It's the coaching. It’s the whole SHE BANG, from the top - down.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,952

12-30-2023, 10:28 AM	#38
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,622 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Thus far the Saints are 2-3 during a critical stretch "character reveal" as Mickey Loomis (per his interview with Hoss on WWL) proclaimed. I surely hope he's been taking good notes. Big picture, I hope this front office is committed to making serious changes in January otherwise, you will stay on the mediocrity boat.

12-30-2023, 11:16 AM	#39
neugey Hu Dat! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,715 Blog Entries: 13	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? The over-the-cap and dead-money issues in and of itself is not the big problem. It's the roster inflexibility and gridlock that comes with it. Rugby Saint II likes this.

12-30-2023, 12:30 PM	#40
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173	Re: Who Are The Right People Really? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Different methods of cost management. More and more franchises are beginning the year "over the cap" by increasing numbers. I know you hate it, but it is the future of the NFL. The top 4 teams in current Super Bowl odds, the 49ers, Ravens, Eagles, and Chiefs, who are all under the 2024 salary cap, would be fascinated to know that the Saints are the future of the NFL according to some guy named Guido. 8 teams are currently over the 2024 salary cap by a total of ~$260 million. We are $87 million over, which is 1/3 of the dollars over the 2024 salary cap for the entire league. Meanwhile the other 24 teams in the league are a combined $933 million under the 2024 salary cap including the top 4 teams in the league. I don't even know that 8 teams being over the next years salary cap, only 4 by over $25 million / 10%, in late December, is even an increasing trend. Do you know that there were not 4 teams 10% over the 2004 salary cap on 12/30/2003? Maybe Mickey Loomis's 'innovation' only appeared to be an increasing trend during covid when the cap dropped and other normally responsible teams needed to borrow short term, and now they are all going back to normal where the Saints once again stand out with 1/3rd of the cap deficit for the entire 32 team league. Or maybe there is a slight uptick in cap borrowing among desperate and loser teams just like the tide pod challenge took off. But just because at one time the tide pod challenge was an increasing trend does not mean its the future of nutritional excellence. To determine the future you can't just look at trends you have to look at outcomes, and in either case the outcome is fans needing to have their stomachs pumped. If you look at the other teams that are over the cap there is a pattern. None are over the 2024 cap by half what the Saints are, the Bills are like 49.9% at the 2nd biggest spender. Many of the other teams over the cap are winners but not 1st tier winners. They are the teams that woulda coulda shoulda and are getting desperate. Just behind the Saints at $87 million over you have the Bills who keep coming in as Miss Congeniality behind the Chiefs or Bengals and have gotten to a desperate stage to make it happen now or never with a running QB who is not getting younger. Then you have the Dolphins who have spent big to bring on Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Ramsey, Armstead etc to win now knowing Tua is one concussion from retirement and on his rookie contract and have been hyping themselves but unable to win. Then you have the Chargers who are incredible underachievers. The Broncos who are under extreme pressure with the bust trade for Wilson. The Cowboys who already fold in December and the playoffs. The Browns who buster on Watson. The Steelers who are struggling to stay relevant after Big Ben. Essentially all the teams over the 2024 cap are desperate underachievers with their coaches and/or GMs job security a subject of open discussions, teams that are not confident in what they have, and feel obligated to put it all on the table to win now and damn the consequences while everyone knows the true favorites are teams under the cap and confident like the Chiefs, 49ers, and Eagles. And even of those desperate teams no other team is half as desperate as us, most are less than 1/4 as desperate, and we are among the furthest from winning, with among the worst quarterbacks. I would say the trend in the NFL is you try to build a stable sustainable contender by staying at or under future salary caps. If your team continually comes up just short and fans are losing patience you go all in for a year or two and try to get lucky. But if that doesn't work you rebuild, because if you are going all in every year, going all in does not give you any edge, its just taking on new debts to pay off old debts with the same mediocrity, and leaves you in a position where if you do get to second tier, you have no cushion to go more all-in to get to first tier. Sinner likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173	Last edited by BakoSaint; 12-30-2023 at 12:53 PM..