Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Somewhere in this bizarro alliteration ^^^ you managed to omit DENNIS ALLEN in the not so grand scheme of things, but the lipstick you keep trying to put on this pig, continues to end up on your Rosie glasses.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Speaking to the Shanahan/Kubiak scheme again.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

This training camp should answer an awful lot of questions that everyone is asking. Like....can Penning improve enough to be a serviceable tackle? Who is the #2 QB? Did the rookies grow enough last years enough to earn more playing time? Who is the slot corner? Can Kubiak really make a difference? etc. etc. etc.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

I don't believe there is any system that makes offensive line talent irrelevant or greatly devalues it, but there are different approaches to accumulating offensive line talent. I think that when you look closely at the differences in approach what Shannahan is doing now is actually similar to what a young Sean Payton did at the oline position with the 2006-2010-ish Saints. Whether Klint Kubiak learns from a year under Shannahan better than Carmichael learned under his early years with Payton remains to be seen. Ultimately, OC's may not control the draft anyway, and so far the Saints approach to oline in the 2024 offseason has most closely mirrored the Saints approach of recent years, not the approach of the Shannahan 49ers or young Sean Payton Saints.

It's worth noting that the 49ers traded for Trent Williams, a former #4 overall pick, and made him the highest paid oline in league history, while the Saints not only let Terron Armstead walk (I dont mind that with his injury history), but did not replace him in free agency with a proven alternative, they just spent the money on other positions like saving up for Derek Carr and attempted to address his replacement instantly with a splashy draft pick who had no time to develop.

The 2009 New Orleans Saints team that won the Super Bowl had zero 1st round picks on their offensive line, but in 2006-2008 the Saints drafted 5 offensive linemen in 3 years in middle to late rounds, and 3 of 5 started on the Super Bowl team while Strief was the top backup and started later.

From 2019-2023 the Saints never drafted more than 1 offensive lineman per draft. If we exclude 7th round throw away picks, the Saints have not drafted two offensive linemen in the same draft rounds 1-6 any year from 2011-2024, a 14 year run of being one and done at the position in the first 6 rounds, although they picked four 1st round oline in that time being one and done as quick as possible.

Previously the Saints drafted two offensive lineman between rounds 2-6 in 2010, 2007, and 2003, an 8 year period where they only went oline in the 1st round once but doubled up in mid rounds 3 times. Essentially the early Saints model was a shotgun approach on oline to have competition and the late Saints model was an anointment approach to take one high pick who would theoretically solve all their troubles at a position without pesky competition as long as nobody ever got hurt (but then blame bad luck when someone did and not have to take responsibility for lack of depth).

If we compare these two approaches to the 49ers, the 49ers took two or more oline between rounds 2-6 in the 2021, 2022, and 2024 drafts. Since 2019 the 49ers have select 0 oline in round 1, 8 oline in rounds 2-6, and 0 oline in round 7, everything has been mid-round for them. The 49ers approach to oline is not new to the Saints, it would not be new to Pete Carmichael, it is a winning formula the Saints inexplicably abandoned.

Earlier Saints teams had an interesting approach at LT too. They drafted Bushrod while J Brown was still the starter, C Brown while Bushrod was still the starter, Armstead while C brown was the starter, and Peat as an insurance policy while Armstead was the starter. They were proactive. But more recently the Saints have been reactive, drafting Ram when Strief was basically done and not able to start anymore, McCoy when Unger was already gone, Ruiz when Larry Warford was already gone, Penning when Armstead was already gone, and Fuaga when Peat was gone. Every big oline pick for the Saints has been a 'need a starter now' pick while in earlier years the Saints drafted oline for depth and development and longer term succession plans, but sometimes struck gold with a surprise day 1 starter.

The Saints recent approach to oline has been to draft premadonna golden boys in the 1st round and supplement with minimum salary journeymen backups. This has come at the expense of every other possible alternative: mid round oline picks, mid to high level free agents, and trades for valuable oline. If you look at both the modern 49ers and the earlier Saints teams under Payton and Brees, both made use of these other alternatives to bring in high value veterans and foster competition not entitlement.

I would say the 49ers value having a superstar at the most important oline position, LT. At other positions I would say they value depth, competition, and youth more than attempting to buy or draft a 1st round superstar. If the Saints want to follow the model of the 2009 Saints or 2020's 49ers they need to value depth and competition at oline by making more mid-round picks at the position and also bringing in some free agents who are more than just minimum salary journeymen with troubling injury history or bust status.

However, it is not clear the Saints have changed their approach to oline. This offseason they added one high 1st round pick, but other than that they lost 3 starters and replaced with a mid-7th round pick and very low level journeymen free agents paid too little to even effect the comp pick formula. They did not try to find the next Evans, Nicks, Bushrod, or Armstead in the middle rounds. They did not trade for a player like Trent Williams or Max Unger or sign a Larry Warford or Ben Grubbs. They did what the Saints have been doing on oline since about 2020: they went oline in the 1st round on an even numbered year and filled in the blanks with journeyman and undrafted free agents.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Salient Points. ^^^

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

That's a fact Jack. :bng:

If it existed, everyone would use it and save tens of millions against their cap.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Perfect time to walk out......:roll:

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

One more thing. Good coaching can turn these players into chess pieces rather than checker pieces.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

It's really a non-story. Missing the final afternoon of non-contact practice prior to five plus weeks of downtime by all players across the league is, in fact, the ideal time for Kamara's agent to make a point of getting an extension done before training camp gets underway after those five plus weeks. There's absolutely nothing he's going to miss until veterans report in late July.

;)

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Not to mention that Carmichael was trying to play marbles while missing some of his own. :D

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

I can't wait for training camp updates about how the team responds this year to Kubiak. Will the team finally hold players responsible for bad play or preparation? We finally have another Alpha in the building.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

“Kubiak comes in after being the Passing Game Coordinator for the NFC Champion 49ers last season.”

This year, he’s got CARRbage to work with. WAKE UP.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

The part about Kubiak being ‘quiet’ could be a flaw. For Loomis to inject that odd detail between compliments it must be noteworthy. Smart and confident but quiet does not paid a clear picture. You could say belichick was a man of few few words, but also you could say those few words were loud and commamding. Quiet could mean a more behind the scenes type, who might work better behind a more alpha coach. But with Dennis Allen’s lack of leadership skills in general and lack of involvement with the offense, a quiet leader may not be what our offense needs. Note some of the words Loomis did not choose like charismatic, passionate, high energy, motivator, etc. We’ll see how it works out. Maybe Kubiak will be a strong quiet leader like Belichick. Maybe he will be too quiet to be a head coach but will succeed as a coordinator. Or maybe he will be too quiet to lead even half a team and is more of a smart assistant who needs to operate behind the scenes.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Salient points. This promises to be a yawn-worthy, if not a cringe-worthy season. But hey… “let’s see what happens”.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Players seem to be reenergized and positive about the changes Kubiak brings.

Obviously nothing matters until we see execution on gamedays but so far this feels anything but "same old, same old".

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

We have a dormant and impotent HEAD COACH and a DUD as our QB. No matter how you “coordinate” all of the other reenergized and positive pieces, our key pieces just AINT got “it”.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

I'd accuse him of complacency had he not changed the entire offensive staff.

Carr had a rough year, no doubt. How he responds remains to be seen but I'm betting on improvement and more wins than last season.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Dennis Allen is a dud. And Derek Carr is Raider curbside trash for a reason.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

I'm curious as to why people feel Carr had a rough year? He had the third best passer rating (97.7) of his career, 10th best in the league. He also had the 6th best completion percentage (68.4%) in the league. He was 10th in the league in TD's (25), and had the 3rd lowest interception rate with only eight picks. 11th in the league in first downs passing.

I think he did his job as best he could given what Carmichael gave him to work with and the disrepair of the offensive line.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Luckily for you and you alone, you’ll have another whole year to post your stats and make more excuses for our lackluster leader****.

he had a rough year, because he is in over his head. OBVIOUSLY, the Raiders knew this and dumped him. like the Saints should have done with the prima donna, and now with the thug. :beatnik:

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Stats don't tell the entire story. Carr by his own admission had a down year.

Personally, I'm moving on from 2023 and willing to see how he responds in '24 with a new staff.

Let's hope the O line is improved.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Clearly, Divine Lady Gayle has found a formula and a fanbase in folks like Quido, who accept and pay for a consistently disappointing product. She and upper Management stay rich, incompetent and impotent coaches stay rich, Players get shuffled around and get paid (and stay rich) to show up and barely perform at a mediocre level.

The Head Coach is a DUD. The Quarterback AINT got it. But like Quido says,
“Winning a championship is not the goal.” So as long as there are still enough fans willing to fork over their hard earned money (and enthusiasm) to support this product, that’s exactly what the rest of us will have to endure.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Definitely not what he wanted based on the glowing numbers he has put up in the past, but most of that was not on him. All in all he performed better than any Saints QB not named Brees going back for decades. We have been spoiled by the great one.

And I'm with you on the new staff.

:bng:

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Wow :bugeyes:.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Beyond being spoiled by the great one, we are being ruined by a not so great one.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Very good article on the a piece of the implementation of the Kubiak offense.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

I think the connection of Klint Kubiak being Kyle Shannahan 2.0 is pretty questionable. They worked together for 1 year. Kubiak has been a journeyman assistant who has been a lot of places. I believe Kubiak was passing game coordinator for Shannahan. In 2006 John Morton was passing game coordinator for the Saints under Payton during a very successful offensive season. Later, Morton became offensive coordinator of the NY Jets. But John Morton was not Sean Payton 2.0. They did not exactly get the Sean Payton offense. Maybe we will get an SF-like offense but who knows. Maybe we will get a poor mans Gary Kubiak offense with our own expensive Matt Schaub.

One question about an SF-like offense is that all that blocking and physicality could lead to injuries. Before McCaffery's luck streak, basically all SF starting RB had an injury every season. Deebo Samuel has had an injury every season. Garappalo had an injury every season. Purdy is 50/50 on ending seasons with injury. Kittle is on and off the field with injury constantly and his effectiveness varies greatly. I could be wrong, but if Kubiak was capable of implementing an SF-like offense here, it could be good to have lots of youth and depth and not tons of money committed to existing talent because we understand who can stay healthy in that type of offense. So like, annointing Hill and Carr as perfect fits for the offense and giving Kamara a big extension assuming success in the offense, that could be a big risk. Keeping draft picks, not trading up and maintaining a quantity of picks, and retaining young players like Shaheed, that could be smart.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

And the perpetual negativity continues to flow. It must be sad to be you. Worse, it must be sad to live with you. :(

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Salient points, as usual. Keep in mind that all that potential for injury will increase Quido’s potential to continue to use injury as an excuse for our pathetic mismanagement of resources.

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

very hateful rhetoric on your part. Haters gonna Hate. fits you well. :beatnik:

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak
 

Thats a pretty good bit to listen to.