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Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I am wondering if anyone can come with a good precedent for what many fans are expecting Klint Kubiak to become. Essentially the rosie fan argument is 'Yes, DA has been a mediocre head coach for 5 years. Derek Carr ...

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Old 06-02-2024, 03:24 PM   #1
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Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

I am wondering if anyone can come with a good precedent for what many fans are expecting Klint Kubiak to become. Essentially the rosie fan argument is 'Yes, DA has been a mediocre head coach for 5 years. Derek Carr is under appreciated and will surprise people but doesn't need to be Patrick Mahomes. Because all the Saints were missing is Klint Kubiak, the most brilliant young offensive mind in the NFL, who will revitalize the Saints as offensive coordinator, make us Super Bowl contenders, bring multiple rings, and perhaps take over as head coach, or become the crown of the Dennis Allen coaching tree as they duel in many future bowls if he leaves.'

I honestly think the jury is still out on Klint Kubiak. He could be the next Sean Payton, Kyle Shannahan, or heck maybe Bill Walsh, or he could be the next Nathaniel Hackett or Josh McDaniels, its hard to know. His resume is mixed bag.

But where I have trouble is finding the past precedent, the mold for what Kubiak is supposed to become according to the Rosies. I genuinely want to hear who you think Kubiak will become like, and how that will prove a long term answer for the Saints.

My problem is this: when I look at great NFL offensive coordinators who won championships and become great head coaches, I see no precedent for what Kubiak is supposed to bring. Kyle Shannahan was a good OC and seems to be a good HC but never won a ring either way. Bill Walsh did not have championship level success at the OC level before he became an HC. Neither did Sean Payton, who actually had a lot of ups and downs as an offensive coordinator. Neither did Mike McCarthy who made but a small difference when he was the Saints OC. Joe Gibbs was a highly respected OC, but again could not win until he became a head coach.

So who, in the entire history of the NFL, was the genius offensive coordinator who elevated a seemingly mediocre head coach and good but not great QB to a championship, and with his later work was able to show that he was the difference maker and create a genuine debate that he was as responsible as the head coach for bringing a ring, by winning one of his own later as a head coach.

Has any coach in NFL history won a Super Bowl as both OC and HC? I can actually find two examples, that actually connect together: Mike Shannahan and Gary Kubiak. The problem is that neither won their rings under QBs or head coaches who were considered mediocre before their arrival. Shannahan came to a team that already had a Super Bowl winning head coach in George Seifert, running an offense installed by Bill Walsh with Steve Young and Jerry Rice. Then Shannahan went to Denver as head coach where he eventually won a couple rings with John Elway, while Gary Kubiak was his OC to an offensive coach with fairly minimal credit. Gary Kubiak was mostly then average as a head coach, until he finally won a ring after bringing in Peyton Manning, and won mostly on the strength of defense with Von Miller. Neither won as an offensive coordinator without a great offensive coach above them and a great QB.

I guess my point is that I don't think any coach who has ever coached football in the history of the NFL could come to a team with a .500-ish or worse veteran coach and a .500-ish or worse veteran QB and be enough of a difference maker to turn everything around on the path to a championship. If you cloned the the brain of Bill Walsh 35 years ago, choreographed his life to give him every ideal exposure to modern NFL offenses, and then installed him as the 2024 Saints Offensive Coordinator under Dennis Allen working with Derek Carr, I think the best difference he could make would be about what difference Bill Walsh made with the Bengals with Paul Brown and Ken Anderson, or what a Shanahan or Gary Kubiak accomplished in their other OC gigs without a great head coach or QB. Essentially I think the offensive coordinator miracle amounts to: 'Yours hearts failing - but don't worry we found you a kidney.'

But please, give me an example? When in NFL history has a new OC made the difference to turn around a franchise, and been able to make up for a seemingly mediocre defensive minded head coach and struggling veteran QB who could not even win a playoff games before?
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Old 06-02-2024, 04:20 PM   #2
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

A possible comparison might be the Rams with Dick Vermeil and OC Mike Martz implementing the Greatest Show on Turf offense. Problem is, Vermeil may have had more charisma in his pinky than Allen has in his whole body. I don't think the Rams get the Super Bowl without Vermeil's passion to kick start things.
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Old 06-02-2024, 05:39 PM   #3
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by neugey View Post
A possible comparison might be the Rams with Dick Vermeil and OC Mike Martz implementing the Greatest Show on Turf offense. Problem is, Vermeil may have had more charisma in his pinky than Allen has in his whole body. I don't think the Rams get the Super Bowl without Vermeil's passion to kick start things.
Yeah I think in Vermeil, Martz, and Warner you had 3 guys who before and/or after were ‘close but no cigar’ guys. Dick Vermeil had been to the super bowl in Philly and went 13-3 after in KC. Warner later went to a super bowl in Arizona. Mike Martz went 12-4 with Bulger. Warner and Martz went to the Super Bowl without Vermeil but lost. But all 3 together was enough to win. The problem for Kubiak is even if he is the next Martz, Carr and DA have a combined like 15 years in the NFL with no playoff wins, and Kubiak had the least of the the 3 positions and needs to to elevate them both from not close no cigar kick rocks to a ring.
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Old 06-03-2024, 10:11 AM   #4
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by neugey View Post
A possible comparison might be the Rams with Dick Vermeil and OC Mike Martz implementing the Greatest Show on Turf offense. Problem is, Vermeil may have had more charisma in his pinky than Allen has in his whole body. I don't think the Rams get the Super Bowl without Vermeil's passion to kick start things.
Funny thing is Vermeil has said his main motivation was his Mother. She told him that he would return to coaching because he wouldn't leave without getting a SB ring. She passed away before seeing him win it, but he thanked his Mom after hoisting the Lombardi!

Great story.
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Old 06-03-2024, 10:14 AM   #5
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

I pray that DA just stays out of the Offense and let's Kubiak drive the OC bus without interference. DA has chops when it comes to running a Defense, but hasn't a clue on Offense (based on keeping PC as long as he did).

If he stays in his lane, we just might see something special on Offense this year
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Old 06-03-2024, 11:37 AM   #6
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by leilung View Post
I pray that DA just stays out of the Offense and let's Kubiak drive the OC bus without interference. DA has chops when it comes to running a Defense, but hasn't a clue on Offense (based on keeping PC as long as he did).

If he stays in his lane, we just might see something special on Offense this year
Or....if we're lucky we start slow and the Saints fire DA midseason. KK steps in and becomes the next future HOF coach.
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Old 06-03-2024, 11:54 AM   #7
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II View Post
Or....if we're lucky we start slow and the Saints fire DA midseason. KK steps in and becomes the next future HOF coach.
If we start slow it's because the offense isn't working. No way they'd keep Kubiak if they fired Allen. Not happening.
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Old 06-03-2024, 12:14 PM   #8
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
If we start slow it's because the offense isn't working. No way they'd keep Kubiak if they fired Allen. Not happening.
Why not? Just curious.
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Old 06-03-2024, 12:21 PM   #9
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by leilung View Post
Why not? Just curious.
Yeah. Why not?
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Old 06-03-2024, 12:48 PM   #10
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Re: Precedents for the Legend of Klint Kubiak

Originally Posted by leilung View Post
Why not? Just curious.
Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II View Post
Yeah. Why not?
I think we all know that Allen knows what he is doing with the defense. I just don't see the scenario where the defense is the cause for any overall failure which would lead to Allen's being fired. If the offense shows any improvement early the team as a whole is going to be better and no way Allen gets fired under that scenario. If the offense comes out as bad or worse than what we've had the past two years then then Allen may not make it, but Kubiak absolutely would be gone as well because he has full say on that side of the ball.

Basically, if Kubiak is successful Allen isn't going anywhere, but Kubiak may get offers to go elsewhere.

“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill
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