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ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Not being a Pessimist. Just reporting what comes across my desk. This is about our Captain. “Yikes. ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler has been busy polling personnel around the NFL on their top-10 rankings at every position, seeking feedback from general managers, ...

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Old 07-15-2024, 05:35 PM   #1
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ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Not being a Pessimist. Just reporting what comes across my desk.

This is about our Captain.

“Yikes. ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler has been busy polling personnel around the NFL on their top-10 rankings at every position, seeking feedback from general managers, coaches, and scouts alike. And of the “nearly 80 voters” he spoke with, not a single one was willing to rank Derek Carr among the game’s best quarterbacks.

Between the top-10 list, six honorable mentions, and two other quarterbacks receiving votes, there were 18 passers highlighted by ESPN’s rankings. And the New Orleans Saints’ $150 million man was not among them.”
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Last edited by Sinner; 07-15-2024 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:28 AM   #2
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
Not being a Pessimist. Just reporting what comes across my desk.

This is about our Captain.

“Yikes. ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler has been busy polling personnel around the NFL on their top-10 rankings at every position, seeking feedback from general managers, coaches, and scouts alike. And of the “nearly 80 voters” he spoke with, not a single one was willing to rank Derek Carr among the game’s best quarterbacks.

Between the top-10 list, six honorable mentions, and two other quarterbacks receiving votes, there were 18 passers highlighted by ESPN’s rankings. And the New Orleans Saints’ $150 million man was not among them.”
So, what incredible passer should the Saints have selected instead. Should the Saints have given up 3 1st round draft picks to get to the top of the first round to get Stroud?

Dammit, don't you get it man. The team got the guy they could get with the resources they had at the time instead of overreaching for a prospect.

Unless you share a better idea of what can be done, these reports that are coming across your desk are pretty worthless.

SFIAH
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Old 07-16-2024, 01:03 AM   #3
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
So, what incredible passer should the Saints have selected instead. Should the Saints have given up 3 1st round draft picks to get to the top of the first round to get Stroud?

Dammit, don't you get it man. The team got the guy they could get with the resources they had at the time instead of overreaching for a prospect.

Unless you share a better idea of what can be done, these reports that are coming across your desk are pretty worthless.

SFIAH
These reports state the facts. Your “woulda shoulda coulda” hypotheticals mean nothing. Now you’re trolling me. Good luck with that.
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:13 PM   #4
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
So, what incredible passer should the Saints have selected instead. Should the Saints have given up 3 1st round draft picks to get to the top of the first round to get Stroud?

Dammit, don't you get it man. The team got the guy they could get with the resources they had at the time instead of overreaching for a prospect.

Unless you share a better idea of what can be done, these reports that are coming across your desk are pretty worthless.

SFIAH
I will give you a straightforward analogy to answer this question. Lets say you really wanted to attend an event, be it your favorite bands concert, a big rally, a championship game, etc, and somehow scored last minute tickets. But unfortunately the event was across the country, and when you looked up last minute flights, they were all outside your price range. If you live in Seattle, and the event is in Miami, would it make sense to spend all the money you do have to buy plane tickets that get you to Chicago at the same time the event starts in Miami?

You couldn't get tickets to Miami? What should you have done, sell a kidney to afford the last minute flight to Miami? Turn a trick at the park? So you buy the ticket to Chicago instead because you got the best you could get with the resources you had a the time.

But the thing is, the event ain't in Chicago. Half way there is not there. When you land in Chicago at the time the concert starts in Miami, you guarantee missing the concert, and have flushed your entire bank account down the toilet to watch it rain in a place with different trees, and now you have less money in the future to buy tickets and travel to any future concert.

This is what the Saint's did with Carr, they settled for the guy who could only get them half way there. In theory, the Saints want to go to the Super Bowl, except for Guido who I believe said championships are not the goal and just wants to go 9-8 every year to save face and have rank as some sort of beta king of the NFC south. Carr will never get the Saints to the Super Bowl, even if he is better than the worst option. Neither will Dennis Allen. They are a ticket half way to the destination, but can't go all the way.

So what should you do if Carr is the best option you can afford? You should pick a worse option that costs less and save money so you can afford a better option later that is actually good enough to go all the way. Just like this person wanting to attend a concert in Miami should not buy a flight to Chicago, they should save their money, scalp the ticket, and save up until they have enough money to get a ticket and travel ALL THE WAY to their destination. This is called rebuilding. Its better than building for 9-8 every year with no patience, and sometimes when you take risks instead of the safe 9-8 known commodity you hit the jackpot earlier than expected so losing in a rebuild is no guarantee, while putting off a rebuild is a guarantee to never win.

Also, Arthur Blank's answer is that he would sell a kidney, turn a trick in the park, buy a ticket to Chicago, and buy a standby ticket to Miami. At least we didnt do that. He might get to Miami but it won't do him a lot of good if he can't sit down and he can't stand up.
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:20 PM   #5
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by BakoSaint View Post
I will give you a straightforward analogy to answer this question. Lets say you really wanted to attend an event, be it your favorite bands concert, a big rally, a championship game, etc, and somehow scored last minute tickets. But unfortunately the event was across the country, and when you looked up last minute flights, they were all outside your price range. If you live in Seattle, and the event is in Miami, would it make sense to spend all the money you do have to buy plane tickets that get you to Chicago at the same time the event starts in Miami?

You couldn't get tickets to Miami? What should you have done, sell a kidney to afford the last minute flight to Miami? Turn a trick at the park? So you buy the ticket to Chicago instead because you got the best you could get with the resources you had a the time.

But the thing is, the event ain't in Chicago. Half way there is not there. When you land in Chicago at the time the concert starts in Miami, you guarantee missing the concert, and have flushed your entire bank account down the toilet to watch it rain in a place with different trees, and now you have less money in the future to buy tickets and travel to any future concert.

This is what the Saint's did with Carr. In theory, the Saints want to go to the Super Bowl, except for Guido who I believe said championships are not the goal and just wants to go 9-8 every year to save face and have rank as some sort of beta king of the NFC south. Carr will never get the Saints to the Super Bowl. Neither will Dennis Allen. They are a ticket half way to the destination, but can't go all the way.

So what should you do if Carr is the best option you can afford? You should pick a worse option that costs less and save money so you can afford a better option later that is actually good enough to go all the way. Just like this person wanting to attend a concert in Miami should not buy a flight to Chicago, they should save their money, scalp the ticket, and save up until they have enough money to get a ticket and travel ALL THE WAY to their destination. This is called rebuilding. Its better than building for 9-8 every year with no patience, and sometimes when you take risks instead of the safe 9-8 known commodity you hit the jackpot earlier than expected so losing in a rebuild is no guarantee, while putting off a rebuild is a guarantee to never win.

Also, Arthur Blank's answer is that he would sell a kidney, turn a trick in the park, buy a ticket to Chicago, and buy a standby ticket to Miami. At least we didnt do that. He might get to Miami but it won't do him a lot of good if he can't sit down and he can't stand up.
Salient points.
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:37 PM   #6
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by BakoSaint View Post
I will give you a straightforward analogy to answer this question. Lets say you really wanted to attend an event, be it your favorite bands concert, a big rally, a championship game, etc, and somehow scored last minute tickets. But unfortunately the event was across the country, and when you looked up last minute flights, they were all outside your price range. If you live in Seattle, and the event is in Miami, would it make sense to spend all the money you do have to buy plane tickets that get you to Chicago at the same time the event starts in Miami?

You couldn't get tickets to Miami? What should you have done, sell a kidney to afford the last minute flight to Miami? Turn a trick at the park? So you buy the ticket to Chicago instead because you got the best you could get with the resources you had a the time.

But the thing is, the event ain't in Chicago. Half way there is not there. When you land in Chicago at the time the concert starts in Miami, you guarantee missing the concert, and have flushed your entire bank account down the toilet to watch it rain in a place with different trees, and now you have less money in the future to buy tickets and travel to any future concert.

This is what the Saint's did with Carr, they settled for the guy who could only get them half way there. In theory, the Saints want to go to the Super Bowl, except for Guido who I believe said championships are not the goal and just wants to go 9-8 every year to save face and have rank as some sort of beta king of the NFC south. Carr will never get the Saints to the Super Bowl, even if he is better than the worst option. Neither will Dennis Allen. They are a ticket half way to the destination, but can't go all the way.

So what should you do if Carr is the best option you can afford? You should pick a worse option that costs less and save money so you can afford a better option later that is actually good enough to go all the way. Just like this person wanting to attend a concert in Miami should not buy a flight to Chicago, they should save their money, scalp the ticket, and save up until they have enough money to get a ticket and travel ALL THE WAY to their destination. This is called rebuilding. Its better than building for 9-8 every year with no patience, and sometimes when you take risks instead of the safe 9-8 known commodity you hit the jackpot earlier than expected so losing in a rebuild is no guarantee, while putting off a rebuild is a guarantee to never win.

Also, Arthur Blank's answer is that he would sell a kidney, turn a trick in the park, buy a ticket to Chicago, and buy a standby ticket to Miami. At least we didnt do that. He might get to Miami but it won't do him a lot of good if he can't sit down and he can't stand up.

This is pretty solid perspective imo. Although saving some $$ to rebuild is no guarantee of success and could lead to generational failure i.e. first 40 years of Saints existence..The million dollar question is, in my mind is do you half ass and strive for .500 like we are doing now to fill the stands and keep people employed or do you trade the pieces for draft capital, not live with middle of the pack FA (Carr), Play your draft picks. Then rebuild from the ground up AND Top Down. That's the discussion I think we all could have here on the black and gold.
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:50 PM   #7
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by bobdog86 View Post
This is pretty solid perspective imo. Although saving some $$ to rebuild is no guarantee of success and could lead to generational failure i.e. first 40 years of Saints existence..The million dollar question is, in my mind is do you half ass and strive for .500 like we are doing now to fill the stands and keep people employed or do you trade the pieces for draft capital, not live with middle of the pack FA (Carr), Play your draft picks. Then rebuild from the ground up AND Top Down. That's the discussion I think we all could have here on the black and gold.
Your million dollar question is pertinent.
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Old 07-16-2024, 12:53 PM   #8
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by bobdog86 View Post
This is pretty solid perspective imo. Although saving some $$ to rebuild is no guarantee of success and could lead to generational failure i.e. first 40 years of Saints existence..The million dollar question is, in my mind is do you half ass and strive for .500 like we are doing now to fill the stands and keep people employed or do you trade the pieces for draft capital, not live with middle of the pack FA (Carr), Play your draft picks. Then rebuild from the ground up AND Top Down. That's the discussion I think we all could have here on the black and gold.
That sort of rebuilding commonly results in that generational failure that you mentioned. I've been living with my Saints since 1967 and what we have today is miles ahead of most of those dismal years.
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Old 07-16-2024, 01:17 PM   #9
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
That sort of rebuilding commonly results in that generational failure that you mentioned. I've been living with my Saints since 1967 and what we have today is miles ahead of most of those dismal years.
Sometimes you present yourself as the only Baby Boomer on this forum whose endured hardship and futility, intentional or not is irrelevant. But trust me, your not. As a Saints fan we've all endured futility and hardship. while yes, we may be in a better place than we have been in years past, but are we really championship quality or just mediocre. That's really the debate. I try to listen to everyone's two cents. You have have good points, Sinner has good points but I don't agree with everything anyone has to say. my .02 is something's missing...is it in personnel? Management? ownership? We have a good QB not great, we have a coach is he good enough to win a championship? not so sure.
Is it time for Mickey to move on? i believe it is.
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Old 07-21-2024, 01:41 PM   #10
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Re: ESPN polled dozens of NFL personnel to rank the game’s best quarterbacks, but Derek Carr didn’t receive a single vote. 18 other passers did:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
That sort of rebuilding commonly results in that generational failure that you mentioned. I've been living with my Saints since 1967 and what we have today is miles ahead of most of those dismal years.
See Guido the problem is you are paralyzed by fear, afraid of the team taking any risk, and willing to settle for being middle of the pack forever just out of fear of being left out of the pack.

1967 is not relevant today. Fearing a repeat of the Saints struggles from 1967-1986 is the fallacy because the conditions are so different that cannot happen again. This is a different league. The salary cap changed everything and much else has changed. Revenues have increased greatly and the shared revenues are so large that all teams are well funded. The media has gone from local newspaper reporters to 24/7 cable news, bloggers, podcasts, etc. Advanced stats and analytics are available to everyone. In the Saints early years they probably drafted picks their scouts had only seen play once or twice, or only read about in newspaper articles. Now a salary cap assures the Saints have similar resources to every team, if they fall behind they can lure away other teams players, no rival can afford to maintain incredible depth. The draft is coming down to a science with a lot more information than in those early years. The Saints will no longer draft a punter with the 1st round pick or keep trading away their 1st round picks for aging washed up stars because with lack of scouting data they did not really know who to pick and with financial pressure they needed immediate returns. They won't struggle with substandard practice facilities. Our division rivals won't be able to afford having Steve Young backup Joe Montana for 4 years, we will be able to sign one away if that happens.

Essentially Guido's goal for the Saints is the Marv Lewis Bengals. As he says, championships are not the goal, just being competitive and not having to relive the 67-86 Saints is the goal. Lewis's Bengals were 131-122 and has more winning seasons than losing seasons. And Marv Lewis is available, despite a much better coaching record than Dennis Allen.

But the thing is, in the post-free-agency NFL world, there are no 67-86 Saints, thats impossible, with free agency, a salary cap, and highly informed draft data nobody can be that bad that long ever again. Teams like the Bengals are the closest thing to the modern equivalent. The worst teams since the inception of free agency that come to mind are the Bengals, Browns, Raiders, Jets, etc. All those teams have gone to the playoffs. Two have gone to Super Bowls. And what is Guido's formula to avoid becoming like the 67-86 Saints? Get the Raiders head coach. Try to outbid the Browns for a troubled QB. When that fails, beat the Jets in a free agent bidding war for the Raiders QB. And be incredibly excited when in his 5th year of head coaching, facing one of the easiest schedules in history, your head coach has one season where his winning percentage resembles Bengals Marvin Lewis's career winning percentage.

Essentially what Guido has done is imprinted his fear of the worst that was possible 40-60 years ago so deeply in his psyche that he is willing to accept the worst that is possible in the modern NFL as a good favorable acceptable outcome. It is not. Dennis Allen is by all measures a worse head coach than Marvin Lewis. Derek Carr is getting closer to an aging Andy Dalton than a prime Andy Dalton. You can look at the Browns and complain about their many coaching and QB changes, but ultimately would it have been better if the Browns stuck with Butch Davis and Tim Couch? The Bills found Josh Allen after years of struggle. The Bengals found Joe Burrow after years of struggle. QBs like Drew Bledsoe and Andy Dalton did not prevent those years of struggle, they were part of them.

The message I have for Guido is to stop fearing and start dreaming, and don't be afraid to dream too big. Derek Carr is probably not the dream. Dennis Allen is probably not the dream. But the nightmare of the 67-86 Saints is the past. That can't happen in the modern in NFL with the salary cap, free agency, lots of data, and lessons learned. Lowering our standards to where the floor of the current NFL landscape is at may protect you from disappointment but it is no way to achieve success. Raise your standards. Make championships the goal. And then we may win some.
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