Congratulations go to Aaron Brooks....

TheGambler · 11-21-2005, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Saint_LB

Let me start out by saying that this record he broke was not that big of a deal. People like Archie more because of the quality person he is, and not so much because of the numbers he put up. Many, many QB's have thrown more TD's in there career than Archie. Many people forget that Archie missed more than one complete season because of a shoulder injury, and many thought he would never return. I read somewhere that at one point in time he couldn't even raise his arm to comb his hair. If I remember correctly, he had to have a groove cut out in his shoulder for the nerve to sit in, and it had to be done twice before they got it right. I think it was by the same Dr. that Tommy John had.(The surgery that is now called Tommy John surgery) His back-up QB's got way, way more playing time than any back-up to AB has ever gotten.

I am not proud. I don't like AB. I think he may be part of the problem with the Saints today. AB does not have the demeanor of a person I can be proud of. I also don't think he deserves the record. He has been given more slack than any QB in the history of the NFL in my recollection. It is almost like he was given the opportunity to break these records despite himself. It is not the first record of Archie's that he has broken, however. Archie's record for yards thrown backwards to his own offensive lineman was 0. AB shattered that record and nobody said a word.

Not that big of a deal??? Brooks broke the record in 82 games, whereas Manning played in 135 games for the Saints. That's a 53 game difference.

And before you say "well things were different in Archie's day"........the I have to ask: Why didn't Hebert get it, or at least get real close? Hebert played in 78 games for the Saints, and threw 85 TDs (31 TDs short of the record). Would Hebert have eventually gotten it? Sure he would have, if he'd played for a few more seasons. But 78 games compared to 82 games shows me that both guys had roughly the same amount of time to work with (Bobbie would have had to average roughly 8 TD passes a game in those 4 extra games that Brooks has on him), and in the end, the accomplishments and accolades go to Aaron Brooks.

Saint_LB · 11-21-2005, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by TheGambler

Originally Posted by Saint_LB

Let me start out by saying that this record he broke was not that big of a deal. People like Archie more because of the quality person he is, and not so much because of the numbers he put up. Many, many QB's have thrown more TD's in there career than Archie. Many people forget that Archie missed more than one complete season because of a shoulder injury, and many thought he would never return. I read somewhere that at one point in time he couldn't even raise his arm to comb his hair. If I remember correctly, he had to have a groove cut out in his shoulder for the nerve to sit in, and it had to be done twice before they got it right. I think it was by the same Dr. that Tommy John had.(The surgery that is now called Tommy John surgery) His back-up QB's got way, way more playing time than any back-up to AB has ever gotten.

I am not proud. I don't like AB. I think he may be part of the problem with the Saints today. AB does not have the demeanor of a person I can be proud of. I also don't think he deserves the record. He has been given more slack than any QB in the history of the NFL in my recollection. It is almost like he was given the opportunity to break these records despite himself. It is not the first record of Archie's that he has broken, however. Archie's record for yards thrown backwards to his own offensive lineman was 0. AB shattered that record and nobody said a word.

Not that big of a deal??? Brooks broke the record in 82 games, whereas Manning played in 135 games for the Saints. That's a 53 game difference.

And before you say "well things were different in Archie's day"........the I have to ask: Why didn't Hebert get it, or at least get real close? Hebert played in 78 games for the Saints, and threw 85 TDs (31 TDs short of the record). Would Hebert have eventually gotten it? Sure he would have, if he'd played for a few more seasons. But 78 games compared to 82 games shows me that both guys had roughly the same amount of time to work with (Bobbie would have had to average roughly 8 TD passes a game in those 4 extra games that Brooks has on him), and in the end, the accomplishments and accolades go to Aaron Brooks.

It would have been a big deal if he had played for someone like say Denver or Miami. Breaking Elway's record or Marino, or someone similar, would have been a huge deal. What I mean by it "not being a big deal" is that we have never had a "hall-of-fame" QB with those sort of stats, so breaking the record is not that tremendous of an accomplishment.

As far as Hebert goes, he played during the Mora regime, and their philosophy was 3 yds. and a cloud of dust. They rarely threw the ball deeper than necessary to pick up the first down.
If you remember, we were usually in most of those games, and it was not necessary for us to change our game plan, so, even in the 4th qtr. we were able to play a ball control offense, usually just needing a FG or a TD to go ahead or tie. A lot of AB's stats came in the 4th qtr. when teams were far ahead of us and playing prevent to keep us from putting instant points on the board.

I guess the question I would pose to you is this. If AB is such a great QB, then why does he have so many people calling for his replacement? Is it your contention that all of these people are wrong, and only a handful of people can see the real talent, or is it the other way around?
Is it possible that most people can see the raw talent, but have also seen that he has not been able to use that talent because of certain bad habits he can't seem to shake, and most people are tired of waiting and have given up on him? I contend that it is the latter, and if he were as great as a few people around here say he is, then he would not be on the hot seat as he seems to be now. I also contend that if he had handled his ego better, that he would have more fans.

Like I have said before, if it were the team around him, and not him, then I would think that the AB supporters would welcome the opportunity for him to go somewhere else and show us how wrong we were about him.

4saintspirit · 11-21-2005, 09:37 AM

AB deserves some credit to breaking Archie's record -- I will give him that -- but I would take Archie in his prime anyday over Brooks -- and in no way does this stat mean that Ab is a better QB. AB has always demonstrated his ability to roll up stats -- both good ones and poor ones. Using stats to try to justify why AB is a top 5 QB is just plain wrong. He has the physical talents to be great -- has a gun for an arm -- can make unbelivable throws -- all true -- he also makes bonehead plays at inopportune times, has never demonstrated the ability to lead or read defenses -- etc.

Should he stay or leave -- personally I don't think he is worth the tremendous amount of money we will have to pay him in salary cap bonus next year -- I think the team needs a new direction in coaching and leadership.

Euphoria · 11-21-2005, 09:44 AM

I'll tell ya why... when the team is **** they want to blame the QB. They don't really pay attention to what is going on the the routes the WR's are not running or thinking the D sucks the O line is horrible... special teams is bad this year.

TheGambler · 11-21-2005, 10:16 AM

Mark my words..............you put the right people around Aaron Brooks, and he will enjoy the same amount of success, maybe even moreso, than what Jake Plummer is having this year. Plummer has been known for the bonehead play occasionally. Last year people started saying the Broncos could never win with Plummer...........this year they could realisitcally go to the Super Bowl, and Plummer has only thrown 3 INTs.

Euphoria · 11-21-2005, 10:32 AM

I couldn't agree more... there are 10 other people on the field that aren't doing there jobs. Broncos can interchange players because they build up there lines.

4saintspirit · 11-21-2005, 10:43 AM

Every year and every game its the same -- its always someone elses fault -- never ABs. I have alwyas kinda supported Brooks -- thought he had a pretty good game against New England. But just as much as you are tired of Brooks getting a lion share of the blame I am tired of the constant 5 years of blind support for Brooks. Year in and yer out his QB ratings are in the low end of the scale. But year in year out there is always someone else to blame. The team is losing yes -- but Brooks is still an inconsistent QB. Even the New england game they get pointing out the fact that he ALWAYS runs backwards 20 yards -- and that is wrong. The team has many faults -- coaching leading the list -- but Brooks deserves to catch some criticism and blame also.

Bise · 11-21-2005, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by TheGambler

I don't know, man.......I watch him.....and he can squeeze the ball into places that probably only 10% of the QBs out there can do...

I have a bad feeling if we cut him loose, the decision will bite us, just like all the other past QBs that most people harp on..

Ya he can squeeze the ball right out of his hands on the Center/QB snap with the best of them...

Euphoria · 11-21-2005, 12:36 PM

I am not saying "its never AB's fault" But a lot of people puts all the fault on him and that isn't fair.

jrmllb · 11-21-2005, 12:51 PM

Denver has what I consider one of the best O-Lines in the league...That being said he knew Denver was not going to put up with many bonehead plays this year...So he has played better to avoid not getting yanked...I admit I did not think he was that good but Plummer has proven me wrong...So what does Denver Have that AB does not, other than the O-Line, Character, Charisma, Emotion, Intelligence (yeah I went there), and leadership ability....I watched the Colts vs. Bengals last night...I watched as both qb's came to the line with 8-10 seconds to read the defense and call audibles some times more than one, AB does not do that b/c he does not mange the clock, does not have the ability to read the newer complicated defenses, and does not take his role seriously (you know what I am talking about)

I understand the need to be thick skinned and having the short memory when you get beaten, but i just wish he would play like a leader, show some toughness, and remember that he just got beat down and get mad and use it for fuel

11-21-2005, 08:48 AM	#11
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610	Originally Posted by Saint_LB Let me start out by saying that this record he broke was not that big of a deal. People like Archie more because of the quality person he is, and not so much because of the numbers he put up. Many, many QB's have thrown more TD's in there career than Archie. Many people forget that Archie missed more than one complete season because of a shoulder injury, and many thought he would never return. I read somewhere that at one point in time he couldn't even raise his arm to comb his hair. If I remember correctly, he had to have a groove cut out in his shoulder for the nerve to sit in, and it had to be done twice before they got it right. I think it was by the same Dr. that Tommy John had.(The surgery that is now called Tommy John surgery) His back-up QB's got way, way more playing time than any back-up to AB has ever gotten. I am not proud. I don't like AB. I think he may be part of the problem with the Saints today. AB does not have the demeanor of a person I can be proud of. I also don't think he deserves the record. He has been given more slack than any QB in the history of the NFL in my recollection. It is almost like he was given the opportunity to break these records despite himself. It is not the first record of Archie's that he has broken, however. Archie's record for yards thrown backwards to his own offensive lineman was 0. AB shattered that record and nobody said a word. Not that big of a deal??? Brooks broke the record in 82 games, whereas Manning played in 135 games for the Saints. That's a 53 game difference. And before you say "well things were different in Archie's day"........the I have to ask: Why didn't Hebert get it, or at least get real close? Hebert played in 78 games for the Saints, and threw 85 TDs (31 TDs short of the record). Would Hebert have eventually gotten it? Sure he would have, if he'd played for a few more seasons. But 78 games compared to 82 games shows me that both guys had roughly the same amount of time to work with (Bobbie would have had to average roughly 8 TD passes a game in those 4 extra games that Brooks has on him), and in the end, the accomplishments and accolades go to Aaron Brooks.
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610

11-21-2005, 09:09 AM	#12
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Originally Posted by TheGambler Originally Posted by Saint_LB Let me start out by saying that this record he broke was not that big of a deal. People like Archie more because of the quality person he is, and not so much because of the numbers he put up. Many, many QB's have thrown more TD's in there career than Archie. Many people forget that Archie missed more than one complete season because of a shoulder injury, and many thought he would never return. I read somewhere that at one point in time he couldn't even raise his arm to comb his hair. If I remember correctly, he had to have a groove cut out in his shoulder for the nerve to sit in, and it had to be done twice before they got it right. I think it was by the same Dr. that Tommy John had.(The surgery that is now called Tommy John surgery) His back-up QB's got way, way more playing time than any back-up to AB has ever gotten. I am not proud. I don't like AB. I think he may be part of the problem with the Saints today. AB does not have the demeanor of a person I can be proud of. I also don't think he deserves the record. He has been given more slack than any QB in the history of the NFL in my recollection. It is almost like he was given the opportunity to break these records despite himself. It is not the first record of Archie's that he has broken, however. Archie's record for yards thrown backwards to his own offensive lineman was 0. AB shattered that record and nobody said a word. Not that big of a deal??? Brooks broke the record in 82 games, whereas Manning played in 135 games for the Saints. That's a 53 game difference. And before you say "well things were different in Archie's day"........the I have to ask: Why didn't Hebert get it, or at least get real close? Hebert played in 78 games for the Saints, and threw 85 TDs (31 TDs short of the record). Would Hebert have eventually gotten it? Sure he would have, if he'd played for a few more seasons. But 78 games compared to 82 games shows me that both guys had roughly the same amount of time to work with (Bobbie would have had to average roughly 8 TD passes a game in those 4 extra games that Brooks has on him), and in the end, the accomplishments and accolades go to Aaron Brooks. It would have been a big deal if he had played for someone like say Denver or Miami. Breaking Elway's record or Marino, or someone similar, would have been a huge deal. What I mean by it "not being a big deal" is that we have never had a "hall-of-fame" QB with those sort of stats, so breaking the record is not that tremendous of an accomplishment. As far as Hebert goes, he played during the Mora regime, and their philosophy was 3 yds. and a cloud of dust. They rarely threw the ball deeper than necessary to pick up the first down. If you remember, we were usually in most of those games, and it was not necessary for us to change our game plan, so, even in the 4th qtr. we were able to play a ball control offense, usually just needing a FG or a TD to go ahead or tie. A lot of AB's stats came in the 4th qtr. when teams were far ahead of us and playing prevent to keep us from putting instant points on the board. I guess the question I would pose to you is this. If AB is such a great QB, then why does he have so many people calling for his replacement? Is it your contention that all of these people are wrong, and only a handful of people can see the real talent, or is it the other way around? Is it possible that most people can see the raw talent, but have also seen that he has not been able to use that talent because of certain bad habits he can't seem to shake, and most people are tired of waiting and have given up on him? I contend that it is the latter, and if he were as great as a few people around here say he is, then he would not be on the hot seat as he seems to be now. I also contend that if he had handled his ego better, that he would have more fans. Like I have said before, if it were the team around him, and not him, then I would think that the AB supporters would welcome the opportunity for him to go somewhere else and show us how wrong we were about him.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

11-21-2005, 09:37 AM	#13
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	AB deserves some credit to breaking Archie's record -- I will give him that -- but I would take Archie in his prime anyday over Brooks -- and in no way does this stat mean that Ab is a better QB. AB has always demonstrated his ability to roll up stats -- both good ones and poor ones. Using stats to try to justify why AB is a top 5 QB is just plain wrong. He has the physical talents to be great -- has a gun for an arm -- can make unbelivable throws -- all true -- he also makes bonehead plays at inopportune times, has never demonstrated the ability to lead or read defenses -- etc. Should he stay or leave -- personally I don't think he is worth the tremendous amount of money we will have to pay him in salary cap bonus next year -- I think the team needs a new direction in coaching and leadership.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

11-21-2005, 10:16 AM	#15
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610	Mark my words..............you put the right people around Aaron Brooks, and he will enjoy the same amount of success, maybe even moreso, than what Jake Plummer is having this year. Plummer has been known for the bonehead play occasionally. Last year people started saying the Broncos could never win with Plummer...........this year they could realisitcally go to the Super Bowl, and Plummer has only thrown 3 INTs.
TheGambler 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 610

11-21-2005, 10:43 AM	#17
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Every year and every game its the same -- its always someone elses fault -- never ABs. I have alwyas kinda supported Brooks -- thought he had a pretty good game against New England. But just as much as you are tired of Brooks getting a lion share of the blame I am tired of the constant 5 years of blind support for Brooks. Year in and yer out his QB ratings are in the low end of the scale. But year in year out there is always someone else to blame. The team is losing yes -- but Brooks is still an inconsistent QB. Even the New england game they get pointing out the fact that he ALWAYS runs backwards 20 yards -- and that is wrong. The team has many faults -- coaching leading the list -- but Brooks deserves to catch some criticism and blame also.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

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11-21-2005, 09:44 AM	#14
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	I'll tell ya why... when the team is **** they want to blame the QB. They don't really pay attention to what is going on the the routes the WR's are not running or thinking the D sucks the O line is horrible... special teams is bad this year.

11-21-2005, 10:32 AM	#16
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	I couldn't agree more... there are 10 other people on the field that aren't doing there jobs. Broncos can interchange players because they build up there lines.

11-21-2005, 10:47 AM	#18
Bise 100th Post Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 154	Originally Posted by TheGambler I don't know, man.......I watch him.....and he can squeeze the ball into places that probably only 10% of the QBs out there can do... I have a bad feeling if we cut him loose, the decision will bite us, just like all the other past QBs that most people harp on.. Ya he can squeeze the ball right out of his hands on the Center/QB snap with the best of them...
Bise 100th Post Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 154

11-21-2005, 12:36 PM	#19
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	I am not saying "its never AB's fault" But a lot of people puts all the fault on him and that isn't fair.

11-21-2005, 12:51 PM	#20
jrmllb 500th Post Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alexandria, Louisiana Posts: 665	Denver has what I consider one of the best O-Lines in the league...That being said he knew Denver was not going to put up with many bonehead plays this year...So he has played better to avoid not getting yanked...I admit I did not think he was that good but Plummer has proven me wrong...So what does Denver Have that AB does not, other than the O-Line, Character, Charisma, Emotion, Intelligence (yeah I went there), and leadership ability....I watched the Colts vs. Bengals last night...I watched as both qb's came to the line with 8-10 seconds to read the defense and call audibles some times more than one, AB does not do that b/c he does not mange the clock, does not have the ability to read the newer complicated defenses, and does not take his role seriously (you know what I am talking about) I understand the need to be thick skinned and having the short memory when you get beaten, but i just wish he would play like a leader, show some toughness, and remember that he just got beat down and get mad and use it for fuel
	"When you see a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra