DT is what we need

Cooky591 · 04-17-2003, 12:31 AM

Jonathon Suvillan or William Joseph should be available with the 17th pick. They are the type of DT we are looking for, so it should be a no-brainer. Of course until this past Monday, I thought having no brains were part of the Saints problems. I am very happy with the Saints moves this off-season. Lets hope Ambrose is still a yop cover corner, Ruff with Allen and Hodge form a special group of LB\'s and that Jones and Mitchell clean all the mistakes.

BlackandBlue · 04-17-2003, 09:13 AM

I want to know why you guys aren\'t confident with with our cb/safety\'s

It depends on several factors. Carter is our #1 CB at the moment, but that could change the minute he picks up a bottle or reinjures himself. I got a good look at him last year, the few games he played, and I will be honest, if he stays clean and healthy, he is fun to watch and showed flashes of brilliance. But those are some big \"if\'s\". Worst case scenario, Carter is out, Ambrose must step up to the #1 spot. Don\'t get me wrong, Ambrose is a good corner, he\'s a GREAT #2, but he\'s only a decent #1. You want a 32 year old, 5-10\" CB who\'s best year was 4 years ago to be covering the likes of Harrison, Price, Johnson, Toomer, and Smith? I don\'t. And if Ambrose moves into the #1 spot, who\'s going to cover the #2? Thomas most likely, Craver if he moves up the depth chart. This is the reason I have a hard-on for drafting one of the top TWO CB\'s.

Haslet-rocks · 04-17-2003, 10:28 AM

alright B and B lets say do what you say, which i think is a good idea, where would we come up with the DT, i mean would we have the draft pick and capability of nabbing somebody who can play, because i agree with you on the uncertainty of the cb position , i still feel that our cb are maybe a little above par or par, but our DT position is well under par. I agree with you on the cb position if we still have the chance of getting the DT, but that the problem, if we waste so much on a prize corner , then whats lets for a sure dominating DT

BlackandBlue · 04-17-2003, 11:24 AM

Everyone has jumped on this, \"We must draft a DT in the 1st round!!!!!\" bandwagon. My stock on these boards is going to drop by saying this, but I really don\'t care. We HAVE proven talent at DT right now, it\'s just been a couple of years since we\'ve seen anything from them, and memories tend to wane when they put up a substandard season. Our starters, Jackson and Hand, are both 30 years old. This should be their prime years. Let me remind you of some things that have happened in the past. In 2000, Jackson had 68 tackles, 8 sacks, and 2 forced fumbles. The year after he had 69 tackles and 4 sacks. Last year he had 43 tackles, 5.5 sacks, and 1 forced fumble. Those 1st two years are some pretty good numbers. What happened last year? Only thing that changed was he was playing in Black and Gold, not Black and Silver. Hand in 2000 had 54 tackles, 3 sacks, and 1 forced fumble. Then his tackles drop off into the 30\'s during 2001 and 2002. Those numbers suck, you say. Let\'s see how they compare to other DT\'s in the league:
Warren Sapp: 47 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble (damn, Jackson had a better year in 2000, perhaps Tampa should start looking to draft a DT in the 2nd round because I think Sapp is done for)
LaRoi Glover: 50 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 forced fumbles (phew, another player on the downside, thank God we let him go)
Bryant Young: 36 tackles, 2 sacks, 0 forced fumbles (and this guy went to the pro bowl???)
Richard Seymour: 56 tackles, 6 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles (now we\'re talking)
Gary Walker: 52 tackles, 7 sacks, and 1 forced fumble (ditto)
\"But...but...but B&B, tackles, sacks, and forced fumbles aren\'t everything when it comes to the DT position.\" Good point. It\'s nice when they get a tackle or sack, but the main goal for the DT is to be such a force inside that they are double and triple teamed, as to allow the DE to rack up the sack/tackle totals. Hello Hand, year 2000. I\'m not sure if people remember this or not, but that year Hand played like he was angry. We taped every game and watched them a few times to analyze players by position (yeah, we dorked out), and he WAS the dominant force on the inside. I\'ve seen him give three players all at one time, fits. He did it in 2001 as well, just not as often. Against the Rams, I\'ll never forget this, he would consistently grab an OL, one in each hand, and drive them back towards Warner. He never got to Warner, but it flustered Kurt enough to make mistakes.
\"Well, B&B, if their play has degenrated, why do you think this position is not our greatest need???\" Our conditioning program sucked in the past. It allowed the \"lunch bunch\" to become the \"fatass lunch bunch\". Where else are you going to find some of the best food in the world, but New Orleans? They fell victim to this, got out of shape, and their play has suffered for it. Big men gotta eat! But this new guy (the name escapes me) is being compared to a drill sergeant. Can he whip them into shape? God I hope so. But if our conditioning program is not fixed, I fear that we may draft a DT in the 1st, only to have him fall into the same problems that Jackson and Hand have after a couple of years in the Big Easy. Then we\'ll be having these discussions all over again.

JOESAM2002 · 04-17-2003, 12:16 PM

Good post B@B, I too think we haven\'t seen the best Jackson and Hand can be. I think it will be hard to get a rookie to play the way these guys are capable of playing. I also think Ambrose will be a big pick up for the Backfield, as I said before, he may have lost a step in speed but he won\'t make mistakes that a rookie will make.
Ok so you ask where is our problem on defense? To me it\'s at the linebacker spot. We had a proven outside linebacker playing inside and at the end of the season we had rookies trying to play when they were not ready. We had our best corner that couldn\'t even play till the middle of the season. Then he comes into a new defense with no time to catch on to how it\'s supposed to play.We had our other CB play several games with a cast on his hand. I know this all sounds trivial to some but when you put it all together it\'s cause for a mess on the defensive side of the ball.
The one person in this years draft I think can have an imediate impact on this team is Boss Bailey. This guy reminds me of some of our old time linebackers like Rickey Jackson. He also brings something else to the table, called Champ Bailey, these guys have always tried to be on the same team. Champ will be a free agent after this year. I\'d love to see these two on the field at the same time for us. If we can pull this off, the year of 2004 can be the big year we all need and want to see for our Saints. I also think our defense will be much better this year with the pickups we\'ve made in the off season this year.
One last thing, I know I said it before but I think it\'s time to look for a QB that can perhaps be the QB of the future just in case something happens to AB. This years QB draft is very strong. If we can still get a good QB in the later rounds, I\'d go for it.

rusta · 04-17-2003, 01:15 PM

you guys are not giving Ruff enough credit, he\'s no superstar but he has speed and experience, behind a good line he is more than adequete, the only LB worth a first round pick this year is Bailey(please god let him fall to us), Henderson is too slow to play coverage or anything to the outside and with a bad line he falls victim to guards moving downfield to block, there are four guys worthy of us trading up to get: Newman Trufant Robertson Kennedy, one of these four is bound to fall to the 7-9 picks which is where ths saints would move up to if they were going to, best case scenario: we move up get one of those 4, take bailey or top 5 DT (if we got one of the corners) with the other first rounder, if bailey and DT\'s gone trade down and recoup some picks, take best talent rest of the draft, our secondary has been upgraded enough to get us through this season, i just feel that our hole at DT is more important than LB, who wants to spend another whole season to see if Hand and Jackson can pull their heads and whatever other objects out of their asses

lsusurfer · 04-17-2003, 01:49 PM

I agree with BB, I think Hand and Grady can get in shape and do well this year. We really need a strong secondary. Defidently get Bailey if we can but I strongly doubt he will fall to 17. Otherwise get the best corner and linebacker. We really need depth at corner especially after what happened last year. If carter gets hurt or suspended we will be hurting. Plus I agree that we can find atleast some competition for the DT spot in the second round. Also we can pull Bradie James too, and I like AB (sometimes) but I like the idea of getting a quarterback in the draft, lots of good ones that will go late.

Haslet-rocks · 04-17-2003, 11:00 PM

First of all i dont think we need a quarter back, Aaron Brooks to me is a provin leader, and Bouman is as good as some of the starters, watch during the preseason , hell show you some things,

now to B and B, i agree with you on Hands capability and i have never doubted grady\'s but this is what im thinking about

(A) We draft a DT that can make a difference because our corner backs i believe are alright and then we address the linebacker issue, this puts us as a sure contender. Our corner backs are old but have experience, our D-line is pretty good and we good good younge Line backers with a pair of dominating safety, (I think mel Mitchel is going to be so good

(B) We do what you say and draft top corner back, address the line backer issue, and pick up a late DT. now if hand plays to his potential the saints with the safety and corner back and line backers will be rocking, but what if Hand does not produce and has another dud season, to me that is such a vital position, our team suffered so much with not stoping the run and giving pressure, (partly becuase our corners gave up the big play) But am i giving the DT position to much importance

Haslet-rocks · 04-17-2003, 11:05 PM

PS - i also feel that an NFL player should have the dicipline to control his weight, I mean if your job is to run around knockpeople down and chase down some of the fastest guy on the planet, its just common sense you dont pork up to 500 pounds, i dont really know the hole story with the strengh and conditioning but a player should know what his playing weigh is, or alcohol level in certian cases :P

Haslet-rocks · 04-17-2003, 11:08 PM

oh yea i agree with Lord of Entropy, some of you guys know your stuff and are pretty convincing, i thought i knew alot but some of you guys are putting me to shame. Just glad to know im not the only Die Heart out there

04-17-2003, 12:31 AM	#21
Cooky591 Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 63	DT is what we need Jonathon Suvillan or William Joseph should be available with the 17th pick. They are the type of DT we are looking for, so it should be a no-brainer. Of course until this past Monday, I thought having no brains were part of the Saints problems. I am very happy with the Saints moves this off-season. Lets hope Ambrose is still a yop cover corner, Ruff with Allen and Hodge form a special group of LB\'s and that Jones and Mitchell clean all the mistakes.
Cooky591 Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 63

04-17-2003, 09:13 AM	#22
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	DT is what we need I want to know why you guys aren\'t confident with with our cb/safety\'s It depends on several factors. Carter is our #1 CB at the moment, but that could change the minute he picks up a bottle or reinjures himself. I got a good look at him last year, the few games he played, and I will be honest, if he stays clean and healthy, he is fun to watch and showed flashes of brilliance. But those are some big \"if\'s\". Worst case scenario, Carter is out, Ambrose must step up to the #1 spot. Don\'t get me wrong, Ambrose is a good corner, he\'s a GREAT #2, but he\'s only a decent #1. You want a 32 year old, 5-10\" CB who\'s best year was 4 years ago to be covering the likes of Harrison, Price, Johnson, Toomer, and Smith? I don\'t. And if Ambrose moves into the #1 spot, who\'s going to cover the #2? Thomas most likely, Craver if he moves up the depth chart. This is the reason I have a hard-on for drafting one of the top TWO CB\'s.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

04-17-2003, 10:28 AM	#23
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20	DT is what we need alright B and B lets say do what you say, which i think is a good idea, where would we come up with the DT, i mean would we have the draft pick and capability of nabbing somebody who can play, because i agree with you on the uncertainty of the cb position , i still feel that our cb are maybe a little above par or par, but our DT position is well under par. I agree with you on the cb position if we still have the chance of getting the DT, but that the problem, if we waste so much on a prize corner , then whats lets for a sure dominating DT
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20

04-17-2003, 11:24 AM	#24
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	DT is what we need Everyone has jumped on this, \"We must draft a DT in the 1st round!!!!!\" bandwagon. My stock on these boards is going to drop by saying this, but I really don\'t care. We HAVE proven talent at DT right now, it\'s just been a couple of years since we\'ve seen anything from them, and memories tend to wane when they put up a substandard season. Our starters, Jackson and Hand, are both 30 years old. This should be their prime years. Let me remind you of some things that have happened in the past. In 2000, Jackson had 68 tackles, 8 sacks, and 2 forced fumbles. The year after he had 69 tackles and 4 sacks. Last year he had 43 tackles, 5.5 sacks, and 1 forced fumble. Those 1st two years are some pretty good numbers. What happened last year? Only thing that changed was he was playing in Black and Gold, not Black and Silver. Hand in 2000 had 54 tackles, 3 sacks, and 1 forced fumble. Then his tackles drop off into the 30\'s during 2001 and 2002. Those numbers suck, you say. Let\'s see how they compare to other DT\'s in the league: Warren Sapp: 47 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble (damn, Jackson had a better year in 2000, perhaps Tampa should start looking to draft a DT in the 2nd round because I think Sapp is done for) LaRoi Glover: 50 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 forced fumbles (phew, another player on the downside, thank God we let him go) Bryant Young: 36 tackles, 2 sacks, 0 forced fumbles (and this guy went to the pro bowl???) Richard Seymour: 56 tackles, 6 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles (now we\'re talking) Gary Walker: 52 tackles, 7 sacks, and 1 forced fumble (ditto) \"But...but...but B&B, tackles, sacks, and forced fumbles aren\'t everything when it comes to the DT position.\" Good point. It\'s nice when they get a tackle or sack, but the main goal for the DT is to be such a force inside that they are double and triple teamed, as to allow the DE to rack up the sack/tackle totals. Hello Hand, year 2000. I\'m not sure if people remember this or not, but that year Hand played like he was angry. We taped every game and watched them a few times to analyze players by position (yeah, we dorked out), and he WAS the dominant force on the inside. I\'ve seen him give three players all at one time, fits. He did it in 2001 as well, just not as often. Against the Rams, I\'ll never forget this, he would consistently grab an OL, one in each hand, and drive them back towards Warner. He never got to Warner, but it flustered Kurt enough to make mistakes. \"Well, B&B, if their play has degenrated, why do you think this position is not our greatest need???\" Our conditioning program sucked in the past. It allowed the \"lunch bunch\" to become the \"fatass lunch bunch\". Where else are you going to find some of the best food in the world, but New Orleans? They fell victim to this, got out of shape, and their play has suffered for it. Big men gotta eat! But this new guy (the name escapes me) is being compared to a drill sergeant. Can he whip them into shape? God I hope so. But if our conditioning program is not fixed, I fear that we may draft a DT in the 1st, only to have him fall into the same problems that Jackson and Hand have after a couple of years in the Big Easy. Then we\'ll be having these discussions all over again.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

04-17-2003, 12:16 PM	#25
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	DT is what we need Good post B@B, I too think we haven\'t seen the best Jackson and Hand can be. I think it will be hard to get a rookie to play the way these guys are capable of playing. I also think Ambrose will be a big pick up for the Backfield, as I said before, he may have lost a step in speed but he won\'t make mistakes that a rookie will make. Ok so you ask where is our problem on defense? To me it\'s at the linebacker spot. We had a proven outside linebacker playing inside and at the end of the season we had rookies trying to play when they were not ready. We had our best corner that couldn\'t even play till the middle of the season. Then he comes into a new defense with no time to catch on to how it\'s supposed to play.We had our other CB play several games with a cast on his hand. I know this all sounds trivial to some but when you put it all together it\'s cause for a mess on the defensive side of the ball. The one person in this years draft I think can have an imediate impact on this team is Boss Bailey. This guy reminds me of some of our old time linebackers like Rickey Jackson. He also brings something else to the table, called Champ Bailey, these guys have always tried to be on the same team. Champ will be a free agent after this year. I\'d love to see these two on the field at the same time for us. If we can pull this off, the year of 2004 can be the big year we all need and want to see for our Saints. I also think our defense will be much better this year with the pickups we\'ve made in the off season this year. One last thing, I know I said it before but I think it\'s time to look for a QB that can perhaps be the QB of the future just in case something happens to AB. This years QB draft is very strong. If we can still get a good QB in the later rounds, I\'d go for it.
	Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!! "Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.

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04-17-2003, 01:15 PM	#26
rusta 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 361	DT is what we need you guys are not giving Ruff enough credit, he\'s no superstar but he has speed and experience, behind a good line he is more than adequete, the only LB worth a first round pick this year is Bailey(please god let him fall to us), Henderson is too slow to play coverage or anything to the outside and with a bad line he falls victim to guards moving downfield to block, there are four guys worthy of us trading up to get: Newman Trufant Robertson Kennedy, one of these four is bound to fall to the 7-9 picks which is where ths saints would move up to if they were going to, best case scenario: we move up get one of those 4, take bailey or top 5 DT (if we got one of the corners) with the other first rounder, if bailey and DT\'s gone trade down and recoup some picks, take best talent rest of the draft, our secondary has been upgraded enough to get us through this season, i just feel that our hole at DT is more important than LB, who wants to spend another whole season to see if Hand and Jackson can pull their heads and whatever other objects out of their asses
rusta 100th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 361

04-17-2003, 01:49 PM	#27
lsusurfer Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 74	DT is what we need I agree with BB, I think Hand and Grady can get in shape and do well this year. We really need a strong secondary. Defidently get Bailey if we can but I strongly doubt he will fall to 17. Otherwise get the best corner and linebacker. We really need depth at corner especially after what happened last year. If carter gets hurt or suspended we will be hurting. Plus I agree that we can find atleast some competition for the DT spot in the second round. Also we can pull Bradie James too, and I like AB (sometimes) but I like the idea of getting a quarterback in the draft, lots of good ones that will go late.
lsusurfer Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 74

04-17-2003, 11:00 PM	#28
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20	DT is what we need First of all i dont think we need a quarter back, Aaron Brooks to me is a provin leader, and Bouman is as good as some of the starters, watch during the preseason , hell show you some things, now to B and B, i agree with you on Hands capability and i have never doubted grady\'s but this is what im thinking about (A) We draft a DT that can make a difference because our corner backs i believe are alright and then we address the linebacker issue, this puts us as a sure contender. Our corner backs are old but have experience, our D-line is pretty good and we good good younge Line backers with a pair of dominating safety, (I think mel Mitchel is going to be so good (B) We do what you say and draft top corner back, address the line backer issue, and pick up a late DT. now if hand plays to his potential the saints with the safety and corner back and line backers will be rocking, but what if Hand does not produce and has another dud season, to me that is such a vital position, our team suffered so much with not stoping the run and giving pressure, (partly becuase our corners gave up the big play) But am i giving the DT position to much importance
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20

04-17-2003, 11:05 PM	#29
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20	DT is what we need PS - i also feel that an NFL player should have the dicipline to control his weight, I mean if your job is to run around knockpeople down and chase down some of the fastest guy on the planet, its just common sense you dont pork up to 500 pounds, i dont really know the hole story with the strengh and conditioning but a player should know what his playing weigh is, or alcohol level in certian cases :P
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20

04-17-2003, 11:08 PM	#30
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20	DT is what we need oh yea i agree with Lord of Entropy, some of you guys know your stuff and are pretty convincing, i thought i knew alot but some of you guys are putting me to shame. Just glad to know im not the only Die Heart out there
Haslet-rocks Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 20