SFIAH.....that was enlightening. LOL. Seriously though....I agree with you. This is a pickle the Saints are in. I feel the same however...fill needs screw the whole glorified QB nonsense.

That's not exactly my feeling. I'm just trying to get a sense where Leinart would fit in the QB pantheon of the last 25 years. If he really can be upper echelon like McNabb, Manning, Farve, McNairs or the Elways, Marinos, or Youngs of the past, then you take the pick and fill the rest in elsewhere. Everyone knew that Elway was going to be special when he was at Stanford. Does everyone feel the same way about Leinart?

SFIAH

Good posts SFIAH. Obviously a good defense is very important to winning a championship, I completely agree with you on that point. Here's my argument:
Case 1:

The Saints can trade out of the #2 pick and get one or maybe 2 more picks. They can draft Hawk and then some other people for the defense. This would obviously help the defense, but there are things to remember. Just because quarterbacks are more highly criticized and followed more, their failures are more commonly documented in the media. However, defensive players can be just as big of busts as quarterbacks. But let's just say that we trade down, get two or three more picks, and all three guys contribute right away. We will still have a huge QB problem. AB is most likely going to be gone. That leaves us with Bouman and AMac, neither of whom are good enough or ready to play in the NFL. As a result, we will most likely have to try and take our luck at getting a "fill-in" QB in FA. The guys who have been brought up have been Volek, Kitna, Ramsey, Collins, and some others. None of these guys are game changers. They might be more accurate than AB and give up less turnovers, but their production numbers per game just aren't what AB was putting up the last five years (You have to give Brooks credit that even though he sucks goat testicles that he always had big numbers). These guys, IMHO, just will never live up to the talent and promise that Leinart has. But anyways, this scenario would allow for the addition of 3 players on defense, and a guy (most likely who's been a backup or bottom tier starter in the NFL the last few seasons) to be our new starting quarterback. What would this do for our offensive and defensive production? Our defense might move up from 14th to top 10. Our offense, however, just won't be that improved (and remember, we're fifth worst in the NFL). So we might have improved our defense a couple of slots, but if our offense still doesn't have a guy behind center who can score some points, we're still going to lose.

Case 2
We draft Leinart. Immediately we have a guy, who many experts believe, can come in and be the best quarterback on this team. His potential is very high, and he's one of the most accurate quarterbacks in college football history. Immediately we've fixed the biggest (and perhaps only) glaring hole on our offense. After this, we can use the #34 pick on an impact LB such as Thomas Howard, Abdul Hodge, Bobby Carpenter (maybe), or D'Qwell Jackson. Immediately we have filled our biggest holes on defense (a good LB). After that we can use the rest of our picks to address other needs such as another LB, a DT, maybe another CB, or even an OL. But we also have to remember that we have Free Agency to try and build up the positions that we don't feel were addressed in the draft. Guys like Will Witherspoon, Akin Ayodele, Derek Smith, Rocky Bernard, and many others will be available. So basically, this scenario allows us to fill our most immediate offensive hole, something that should allow us to make a huge jump in the offensive rankings. Also, we will be able to address some of the holes on our defensive side.

Case 1- Address many defensive holes, ignore QB situation. Basically we get a lot of picks, but they're not as high quality.
Case 2- Address biggest offensive hole, and many (but not all) defensive problems. Have fewer picks, but a higher quality of players selected.

In my opinion, and this is just what I think, we need to take Leinart #2. He's the highest graded QB since Peyton Manning, and I don't think anybody would pass up on him. We can still address LB with the #34 pick. We can address the DT, other LB, and other holes later in the draft and in free agency. Many people make it seem like if we take Leinart that we won't be able to do anything else. That's just erroneous. We still have the opportunity to fill all the other holes, it just might be through FA and the later rounds.

Fact of the matter is our late round picks have not been that stellar. Haslett actually may have left this team with some young talent out of the last two drafts, However that impact line backer and great linemen are usually found in the early picks. That being I'll be honest. Yes. In a new system with some control around him absolutly. This team has been out of control for a good two years. Look at the penalties. I would take him any day over Leinart, Sorry but I ain't pinning the offense on him. Players make errors and no he isn't the brightest QB, but will he out perform Leinart, I am confident he would anyday. Question I ask is does he garner the respect of his offense and teamates, and I do think he does. So that tells me that there is plenty of blame to go around. IS he worth 6 Mil. HELL NO. But he is still wearing the colors.

Deuce,
I fully agree that the team needs balance and I think we are 2 LB's one Corner and a DT away on Defense of cracking the top 10. I think the defense while improved enjoyed short field position that the offensive mistakes put them in:)., and therefore those numbers are inflated. Teams still scored at will at least once a game. Unfortunatly that is all it took this yaer.

On offense we need a tight end or a reciever. And another running back, And some help on that O-Line. With that the ball moves from the Qb's hands to the back. Where I disagree is on QB and only time will tell. I would much rather see Cutler who reminds me of Marino only with mobility drafted, than Leinart who I fear has peaked.

To be honest either will be sitting idle behind the starter waiting there turn.

This is from another post I made, but it applies here:
Not counting this year, does anyone know how many times that this team has had a top 2 overall pick in the Draft? Answer - Twice. That's amazing considering all of the countless years of futility that we as fans have suffered through. Absolutely amazing. The only two times that we were fortunate enough to receive a top two pick after suffering through another excruciating season was in '71 when we selected Archie Manning with the second overall pick and in '81 when we tapped George Rogers with our one and only first overall pick. In fact, the team has only drafted within the top five a total of just 5 times in almost 40 years. Unbelievable. All of that suffering year after year, after year, with so little pay-off. So, all of this talk about trading down to recieve more picks is nonsense. We owe it to ourselves and all of the fans that have came and went over these past four miserable decades to take advantage of what we have earned and select a quality player with a long overdue quality pick.

What we have earned is multiple quality players if the deal is offered. If it is not so be it. You don't give up the second slot for free, but if the offers on the table then you take it. Remember one important thing here Loomis is going to be making these picks with input from Payton. Four Qaulity Players for one over Hyped player ain't worth it.

How can anyone beat the deal that we gave Washington? How many "quality picks" did we give up? We gave them everything for Ricky Williams. You would have bet for absolute sure that they would have been able to do so much with all of that, right? Well, how did they do? It took them until this year to become competitive.

So you're just assuming that if we trade down we'll automatically get four good players and not take one busted "over hyped" player. That's just absurd. Here, watch, I can do it too.... Four no-talent ass clowns for the next coming of Dan Marino aint worth it.

I obviously wouldn't say that about Leinart, but that's what you're saying about these four "quality" players. First of all, how do you know we'd get four picks by trading down? I could see us getting two or three. Also:

Great post mjf. Just because you get MORE players doesn't mean you're getting BETTER players. This game is all about QUALITY, not QUANTITY. That's why we need to take Leinart and not four worse-rated players. That's why we need to take Leinart and not draft Jacobs, sign Kitna, and keep AMac and Bouman.

This game is all about QUALITY, not QUANTITY
[/quote]Absolutly and Four early Picks in the first three rounds. I'd take that over Leinart. AJ Hawk at 2 thats a little early, but if he can turn a defense around like a Ray Lewis, or a Urlacher I'd take em at 2. Last year I can remember ranting all over this board for a linebacker early, funny how a year changes things.

Forget Jacobs I'll agree with Ya there and Forget Kitna. Charlie Whithurst or Cutler big upside and Cutler can be the second coming of Marino in the right system.

I'm not going to take the time right now to look it up but where they not Horrid and lacking complete Talent back then? It's a mute point when some are so hell bent on Leinart.

Agree to disagree

Nice post Deuce. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry should have explained better. Any way shape or form of trading down should bring a second and third in this years draft combined with the existing first and second equals four. That's the logic. Without that scenerio there is no reason to trade down unless it is coupled with a player of need and caliber. Dealing hypotheticals here.

Whitehurst? Whitehurst? Don't talk to me about Whitehurst. This guy is projected as a late round pick. Why in the world would we take him when we don't have a starting QB to beign with? He's nothing but a "special project." This guy is rated BEHIND Omar Jacobs and Brodie Croyle.

And Cutler.... why would we draft Cutler? If we trade down, then we need to trade down for defense, and defense only. If we stay at #2, we need to draft Leinart. Leinart is the highest graded QB by almost every scout and NFL expert. The only other person that should be considered at #2 is Vince Young. Cutler has mechanics issues, questionable character problems, and just isn't as accurate as Leinart. There's no way Cutler becomes a Saint. If he does, I'll never watch another Saints game again.

Hope you don't watch a game. Mecanic issues my arse, and what questionable character isuues? The only thing the kid was missing was 6'-4" recievers who have the ups and the seperation to catch floaters and an offensive line that gave you all day...Oh ya and two first round running backs that can catch swing passes. His release is quicker than anyone I have seen since Dan Marino retired.(Who by the way went late in the first because he was a Pothead and had questionable character) It's easy to be accurate when given all the time in the world. The guy throws up floaters my friend and in the PAC 10. So the numbers and accuracy should be taken in context.

If they go quarterback that is who I would like to see and for reasons stated above amongst others. I threw Whitehurst in because he has more upside than Leinart, who is just another Glorified Ken Dorsey and probably not even that good, at least Dorsey threw against some Defense.

I don't think quarterback is the way to go because that will not solve the problems.

And what the hell do analyists know that you can't look at and see whith your own eyes. If there right 50% of the time there doing well and cover it from so many angles a weathermans more accurate.

F-it I am done with this.

I'm just telling you what I've heard from analysts on ESPN.com. Scouts, Inc has said (and they're not the only ones):
And about the character issues: Just telling it like it is. No need to get yourself all worked up over this Fan. I just don't think Cutler is that good. You can blame his team or whatever you want, but Leinart is clearly the cream of the crop in this class.

Sure he seems like a good guy

You are entitled to your opinion and I have mine, so no bad intended here. Just remember Marino dropped due to issues with Drugs If those are character issues then I am sure 85% of the draft would have poor character.

Cutlers numbers are down due to the team and division he played on. If you watch some film on the guy you will see he has all the tools and with the right coaching will far exceed Leinart very quickly.

Leinart is the faverite due to all the national media hype and the attention his team recieved. Not nocking the guy he was a great college QB on one of the top five offensive teams ever In my opinion. But that was a complete package. I just don't see him translating well to the NFL.

But of course only time will tell but I would be willing to bet good money that Cutler barring injury to either will have a better pro carreer.

Like I posted in another thread....Leinart is sounding a lot more like Danny Wuerffuel. Great accuracy...no arm strength.

Actually, Leinart is said to have arm strength similar to Peyton Manning. Would you say Peyton Manning has no arm strength? Just curious.................

It looks like we are reading from different sources with different opinions. You read Peyton Manning...I read that he does not have enough zip in his throw for cutback routes.

Chad pennington may have more armstrength post surgery :P

Jeebs, show me one article where it says Leinart has NO arm strength. I'll pull an article out for you:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...=tsn&type=lgns

FanNJ, maybe pennington will now be able to throw a 3 yard screen pass, haha. Like I said in another thread, Leinart may not have a huge arm, but he has a better arm that chad pennington.

Whodi....look at the article I just posted under "interesting read from SI"

And Pennington is starting to sound a lot like Chris "Chandelier".

Ok you got me I'll agree there but only post surgery:)

Wait, you are saying Leinart has NO ARM STRENGTH based on an article that said:

So cause he's not Carson Palmer, he has NO ARM STRENGTH? Oh Lord yes, I am DEFINITELY taking your opinions on QBs no longer with a grain of salt, but with a vat of salt. :wink:

FanNJ, I can not believe that you actually said that you would not want Leinart because he "has peaked". Yet, you would be OK with letting Brooks have another shot even though he has consistently regressed ever since his first year.

Listen....if his arm strength was not such a question then why would other QB's like Cutler all of a sudden possess just as much value as Leinart? Lets face it every QB says the same thing...the speed of the game at the NFL level is much much faster. Arm strength and athletic ability are super important. If Leinart is lacking this then yes it can be a serious problem when he gets to the NFL.

Wait, what? Cutler has as much value as Leinart? On what draft board? crackcity.com? I am changing it to a tanker of salt. Dude, I have no idea where you get your QB ideas. Once again, he is said to have the arm strength of Peyton Manning. How much of a problem has that been for Manning?

Yes I am and I think he has regess more since 03 than anything else along with the enire team. I am wondering if it is more his grip on the ball post surgery, sweaty palms or maybe the change in center that was causing the airball fumbles. I blame more the coaching than anything. This year I refuse to look at because they all sucked and given the circumstances did anyone really believe that it would have been better? No it was expected that they suck.
Brooks is a known quantity and can play at a high level. Consistancy as Whodi points out is what is lacking, but that starts with the O-Line the Running game and The Q_B as well as the recievers, and is more of a factor of poor coaching and diciple as much as it is lack of skill and ability.
Do I think that what I have seen to date makes me believe he could be successful absolutly, and I would take that over the unproven any day. If Payton and FO deciedes to keep AB and bring in either a young quarterback or FA that can puch for the starting spot will he play at a higher level..good possiblility he would.
When you look at the regression is it all in his corner, no. Would you say that Farve regressed this year because the entire team around him was inconsistant? Did you happen to watch all the fumbles and Ints he had? Would you still call him one of the top QB's in the league? I would.
Not to many QB's will florish when every drive contains 1st and 20 2nd and 15 3rd and 25 get my drift.

What are you talking about whodi....go to "anything".com and see that Cutler's value has him projected as the third pick now instead of the ninth. Every board I see...SI...ESPN....the list goes on...Cutler's name right now is uber hot. People are realizing that he has the tools and the capacity to do it. To me thats more important that having knowledge of e pro-style offense. QB's can always learn schemes....but natural talents??? You know that you don't just earn those.

Have you been drinking? Cutler is still THIRD. Third does NOT equal first. Show me one draft board where Cutler is ranked higher than Leinart. There's a reason why he's third, and Leinart's first. HE'S NOT AS GOOD. He's not as good mentally, and he's not as good physically. He has worse accuracy and worse decision-making skills. Hmmmm.... bad decisions, that sounds like somebody I know. *cough* *AB* *cough*

If you seriously think Cutler is better than Leinart then there's something seriously wrong with you and your "information." If you actually read ANYTHING about Leinart besides just listening to some of the garbage being posted here, you'd understand that Leinart's arm strength is severly underrated. Besides, his arm trouble never seemed to give him that much trouble in college. I remember him being one of the most accurate deep-ball throwers in college. Hmmmmm.....

O and I forgot to mention. The only reason that people are talking about Cutler and not Leinart and Young is because Cutler has been doing things like the Senior Bowl. He's been in the media spotlight because he's doing stuff. Leinart and Young don't need to. Just wait until Leinart and Young do their personal workouts, then you will see less attention on Cutler and more on the best QBs in this draft (Leinart and Young).

By the way, did you by any chance watch the Senior Bowl? Cutler was AWFUL. Yeah, I'm really impressed.

How do you define awful? I watched the second half of the senior bowl and two consecutive passes were perfectly thrown balls dropped by recievers for first downs. The touchdown pass was a bullet under pressure. Sure he uderthrough a halfback screen but that was it. I did miss the first half so I will not comment on the interception, or any of the first portion of the game, and this is all while working with different recievers than a season of drills will do.
Leinart did not play because he felt he did not have to and ritefuly so, but I also suspect without his oline and recievers he would have fared no better. And I have read Alot on both and seen many games with both to come to a decision that one has more talent and ability than the other, and that good decision making that the other exhibited will be exposed when under real defensive pressure. Floating balls in the NFL and leaving a reciever exposed will not last long in the NFL with safties and corners that can hit and cover.
But your in one camp and thats fine, time will tell.

mmmmmmmmm Cutler no thanx.........

Leinart yes please..............

This whole Cutler situation is reminding me of 2 years ago with Phillip Rivers, Big Ben and Eli. Big Ben and Eli were the two top guys until Rivers impressed some people in the senior bowl and jumped over Ben and into the top 5. Rivers was originally a mid first rounder who became the flavor of the week at the senior bowl and rode that all the way to the #4 pick in the draft. Cutler was originally a mid first rounder who impressed some at the senior bowl and is now a projected top 5 pick. Now let's see here, Eli led his team to the playoffs in his first year as starter and Ben won the super bowl in his second year as starter, while Rivers is still riding the bench. There's no way the chargers would have Eli or Ben on the bench for 2 full years. Rivers wasn't as good as the other 2 and SD realizes they made a mistake cause they got caught up in the hype. Similarly, Cutler isn't nearly as good as Leinart (or Young) and I'm not allowing myself to get caught up in the hype. Cutler was rated a mid first rounder for a reason just like Rivers was, they just aren't top 5 picks. Lets not make that mistake. Draft Leinart and we'll finally have a franchise qb!

I never said he was first Duece. I did say his name is flying through the ranks. You know why he won't be projected as first or second? Easy....it is still impossible to think that Vanderbilt could have produced such an athelete. In short when you play for Vandy you have to struggle in the all powerful SEC. No Rose Bowl, No Championships, Hiesman my foot. Yet he managed to make that crappy school respectable this year. What I do know is...they had him at 9th. He is now third. Unfortunately he has more to prove than Lienart and Young.

That sounds like saying he's first. Anyways, he still completed only 59% of his passes this year. That's down from his junior year. I'll take Leinart who's "uber" accurate.