RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

There has been other to have scored even lower and ended up in the Hall of Fame. I am still waiting to hold judgement until the official results come out. They are not to be released until after the combine is over. Kind of weird for that score to leak out and no others. I just think that with all this uncertainty that the Saints will be better off going OL, scooping up D'Brick. I am hoping Mongold doesn't reach the second round but he was so impressive he may make it. Bently gets signed and them 3 alone will be a force on our OL for years to come.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

That 16 score was leaked by his agent in response to the rumor of a "6" score. Marino's supposed 14 can't be verified by ESPN folks so may or may not be accurate. Though it is said he scored low. As I've said elsewhere, this isn't the end of Young, just another strike against him.

As for the OL, I'm waiting to see what the FO does based upon Payton's evaluations before passing judgement on them as a whole. I think they're better than they played this year, the false starts show that they wern't practicing as well as should be. I'll let that go because of Katrina, Haslett, and a rookie.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

Marino's score was actually a 16.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

I like Amac's score, 26

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

Agents don't get the results... until after it is posted at the end of the combine. Someone - NFL employee would have had to have leaked that info. and who would have done that risk losing there job.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

Euph, if you check out the link I provided earlier in this thread it states:

SO it was his agent who gave out the 16.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

The full report of Wonderlic scores distributed to NFL teams reportedly ommitted Vince Young.
Young's future won't be decided by this score, but he needs this story to go away. There are further reports that Young didn't score a 16 on his re-test, which presents a problem for his agent who said he did. Mar. 5 - 12:28 pm et

Laugh. So basically, he scored lower than 16 the second time he took the exact same test?!

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

yeah um i said he would be nothing in the nfl. cutler has to be in front of this guy to say the least. i think he may fall out opf the top 10. i see him going to the 20's
what do you guys think

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

LOL....

Why does it have to be so polarized on these topics??? Either VY is going to the Hall of Fame on first ballot or he'll be a bum on the streets in 4 years???

The Wonderlic is just one evaluation that is used to gauge a player's future expectations. His low score is actually a positive for teams willing to trade up, and I'm sure that teams like the Titans, Jets and Packers know this. If no trades happen and he slips a bit, VY won't last past Detroit. Teams are not just going to forget his career numbers and performance at the Rose Bowl over one overrated exam.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

sorry goldrush but the opinion goes far beyond for me. before he ever came close to having that score i said he would be nothing in the nfl. it has to be that way with him because that is what he brings. either a great talent or a terrible qb. there is no in between. my guess would say a whole lot of nothing in the nfl. really i could care less what he does in the nfl. just don't draft him new orleans and i could care less what he does one way or the other.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

did you watch the aggies game goldrush. he was **** in that game. one game may noit make him **** but one game doesn't make him great either.

RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=PNph
 

i agree spkb, but i will take it further...mcneal looked like the better qb in that game. some team will be very happy when they draft him in day 2.

Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?name=
 

... and Dan Quayle is getting acceptance...

.. the Wonderlic measures how fast you think, and if you are a QB in the NFL, you need to think very fast under pressure.. sure he can take off running, but in the NFL everyone is as fast as Young, and they hit much harder thsn in college too. So, while he may not be a "bum on the streets in 4 years", he sure as hell ain't going to be a SB MVP...his physical ability will only take him so far ... well let me rephrase that: his running ability will only take him so far... he's not accurate throwing the ball...

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?n
 

The negative press from this story just balances out the over-hyped positive press from the Championship game. Now teams will look at him without the rose-colored (sorry for the pun) glasses they had been using. It'll level him out on some teams boards. Now on his pro-day he's going to have to actually prove he can QB.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?n
 

He will be gone by the 7 pick in round one anyways. Why should he care. he will be an overnight millionare. I can not wait till he takes off to run and gets hammered by the LB's in the nfl. He will learn to slide quickly. That's what a low wonderlick score gets you.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.php?n
 

Ahh What was his Completion Persentage?? I do believe he is quite accurate. Not that I would want him...But I will give the man some credit where it is due.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/index.p
 

What credit? They ran a pop warner offense for him. ANYONE's completion percentage would be high the way they took most of his reads away. He was in a shotgun, and even after that is was 1 read, 2 read, run. He should have completed 100% of his passes in that gimmick offense. It catered to his abilities wonderfully, but let's not get hung up on his completion percentage as a judge of his ability to play QB.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/ind
 

Anyone who watched the championship game saw that he didn't complete a pass over 15 yards and because of the gimmick offense they ran he had wide open recievers on every pass play. What I saw was those recievers having to adjust and make very good catches on easy throws to bail him out. You give any qb recievers that wide open and they're going to have a high completion percentage. And after that Texas A&M game I saw him with his head down on the sideline after they secured the game because he had a bad game and realized he threw away the heisman. He's got additude problems, he's as a dumb as a brick and I don't trust him to win any games with his arm. The guy has no common sense either, he showed up to the white house in a sweat suit! In the right system and with the proper coaching he could become a decent qb, but I'm glad this test score opened up peoples eyes and balanced out his rose bowl performance.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site/ind
 

LOL. MY only point was please get off of that Wonderlic BS. It's an exam and it has its purpose, just like the SAT and the ACT. Scoring well or poorly does not necessarily predict future results. There are QBs that get great scores every year. Didn't Alex Smith get a 40 last year??? How did he do? Drew Henson got a 42. How has he been doing?? David Maas got a 43 in 1999. WHO????? Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly, Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino all got 15s. To make any kind of judgement on it other than the fact that VY did poorly is asinine.

I personally want the Saints to pick Leinart, and they will. I'm not gonna just slam every other QB that's not Leinart because of that though. And using this overrated test to slam VY is weak. It doesn't have to be "QB A sucks" or "QB A rules".

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site
 

..uh... if you score 100 in your SAT's I guarantee you, you don't get into college unless you go play QB in Texas...

We all know what the Wonderlic is and what's supposed to measure... it's not a make or break thing, obviously, as there are exceptions to every rule... but let me ask you...
...if your life depended on it, which doctor would you like to perform emergency brain surgery on you? The doctor who scored 6 on the Wonderlic, or the doctor who scored 43???

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site
 

And that's where you're missing everything. You seem to have ignored a lot of the other stuff I wrote up there. But anyway...you are judging VY or any other person that scores poorly on this test to your personal standards for excellence. Apparently everyone doesn't know what the Wonderlic measures if there are such rash conclusions made about players like VY who score poorly.

Obviously, a doctor's Wonderlic score is far more relavent than an athlete's score, so that comparison is reaching a bit. Vince Young is an athlete, who relies PRIMARILY on athletic prowess to succeed in his profession. He's not a doctor, ok? Obviously it is very possible for QBs to succeed who score below average. Whether he will or not no one, not me, you or anyone else has any way of knowing.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site
 

..it's not a comparison, it is an analogy... and is you who's missing the point...

... again, what the Wonderlic measures is how fast you think under stress, not how much you know.... if you give people 5 hours to answer the 50 questions instead of 5 minutes, I bet you everyone would score just about perfect, because the questions in the Wonderlic do not require any knowledge beyond the 2nd grade....

...continuing with the brain surgeon analogy, it is very possible that the doctor who scored the 6 knows more about the brain than the doctor who scored the 43: the Wonderlic doesn't ask medical questions; but in an emergency situation when they have to make the right split second decision to save someone's live, the guy who thinks faster and sees thinks clearer in the shortest amount of time may be the best bet for that someone laying on the operating table.

How does that apply to a QB in the NFL? Well, how many times have you heard someone ask "with the game on the line, who you want at QB? " ? Do you want a QB who is going to take 10-15 seconds to read a defense when he gets to the line of scrimmage? Or a QB who's going to take 5-10 seconds after the ball was snapped to get a grasp of what coverage the defense dropped into? In that situation, you want the QB who can think fast and recognize what's going on around him in 2 seconds, not 20..

..and athletic ability, especially at the QB position, will only take you so far in the NFL because, in the NFL EVERYBODY has athletic ability... in the NFL, you have DE's that run as fast as Young...

... and, speaking of Marino and Bradshaw... these guys took the Wonderlic test waaaay before the Wonderlic meant anything... nowadays the Wonderlic is much more relevant that it was back in those days... I can see both just marking "B" all the way down (as Papz suggested) just to get ou of there quickly... but today, it is different; today it is very relevant to an NFL prospect, especially at QB.

... that actually brings me to another red flag against Young: if you KNOW that you score in the Wonderlic is as relevant in the NFL draft process as it is today, you need to PREPARE for it.... Itf an adult with a college education (allegedly) t scored a 6 in the Wonderlic , he did NOT prepare for it, he didn't CARE, or he's retarded...

...I'll tell ou what, in my book, I would draft the retarded one... at least I know he's really trying...

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site
 

While you're condescending to me, a comparison is an analogy. :roll:

If the Wonderlic is such an accurate gauge on, as you put it "how fast you think under stress", then what accounts for the slow thinking Neanderthal Hall of Fame QBs who scored almost as poorly or worse than VY did???

And how can you determine that the Wonderlic is any more "relavent" than it is today? Was it modified since Bradshaw and Marino took it? Was it changed in any manner? The only thing different about the Wonderlic is that it gets more coverage due to the tenfold increase of media coverage of the NFL and all of its correlating activities.

Now if u want to say that Young was unprepared for the exam and THAT'S why you are down on him, then that's one thing. But there have been too many QBs who scored poorly on the Wonderlic that performed well in their careers. That Wonderlic won't mean a thing to the Titans when they pick him at 3. After that we won't hear another thing about VY and his wonderlic score. It's all pre-draft rhetoric meant to incite trade possibilities.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/site
 

I'm not being condescending.. a comparison is not the same as an analogy...
..a comparison makes note of similaries and/or differences between any 2 or more things, while an analogy only makes note of similarities between otherwise dissimilar things...

.. the reason why the Wonderlic is more relevant today is because the game has gone from "sweep right sweep right hut hut" to "left eagle 9 wide T scrambled 32 thight C deep Y on 3", because defenses shift much more than they did before, etc, etc, etc... so, why the Wonderlic probably has not changed much, the game of Football has changed a lot.

As far as how many Neanderthal QB's are in the HoF with low Wonderlic scores-
First off, there isn't one who has done as bad or worse than Young.
Second - The Wonderlic started being administered in the 70's and only by some teams, and didn't become the pre-draft staple that it is today until the 80's, so there's only so many QB's drafted pre-seventies that you can choose from.. I don't know the date when all teams started administering the Wonderlic, but since 1970 you got:
Aikman
Bradshaw
Elway
Fouts
Kelly
Marino
Montana
Moon
Young


...yet, that is irrelevant... instead of looking at the past, look at the present... Vince Young is not going to play NFLfootball in 1976, or 1986, he's going to play NFL football in 2006.. Payton Manning , Tom Brady, those 2 will be in the HoF and most likely will be 1st ballot HoF'ers... They run extremely complicated offenses and do it very well. None of them scored a 6.


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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: http://blackandgold.net/
 

I really don't get this..........A few years back Michael Vick comes out and the media and teams jump all over him. People say he is the FUTURE of the NFL. The Falcons trade away their lives to draft him. There was a great running back and and another great quaterback also in that draft, just like this one, and yet Vick was what EVERYONE talked about. VT ran the same shotgun and run offense that Texas ran. VT had a very good TB, unlike Texas, but everyone was on the Vick bandwagon. Now Vick is still seen as THE FUTURE, if he would shut his mouth and stay healthy.

Now you can argue that Vick is faster and more elusive. You can say Vick has a stronger arm and better release. You can even argue that Vick is not the future of NFL QBs, thus saying Vince Young won't be either. All I am asking is why is this guy, all he did this past season was throw for 2,000+ and run for 1,000+ against the very defensive minded Big 12, seen as a blubbering idiot who couldn't lead an NFL team to even a Pre-season victory against NFLEurope rejects.

One last thing, and this is no way is even conceivable....................What if Young runs a 4.4 40 throws very accurate 60+ yard passes, benches exactly like Cutler did, and Leinart runs a 5.1 40 throws sloppy 30 yard passes, and benches like a punter. Will the media start putting Young and Cutler in the top 5 pickas and Leinart into the late first round, or is the infactuation with Leinart so high that they would call it a fluke and convince the Saints to draft him. Now I will repeat THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.........but what if it did.

well i think your question was your answer also. or within your question was your answer. vick was hyped and hyped and hyped. now he hasn't become much of a qb. great athlete, average at best qb. i heard for a long time that all he did was win. well that has now stopped or at least for this year. then i hear well he doesn't have a supporting cast. that goes to my point that it is a team game. i am not real sure nor do i really care why vick sucks he just does. THAT IS YOUR ANSWER MY FRIEND. because this experiment has been tryed before. vince may be a great qb. what do i really know. all i am is a fan. i just have seen running qb's over and over again and never seen any be that good. well that is until they stopped running and started throwing more. i just don't see this in vince.

You are both right and wrong, but mostly right. Vick is a game CHANGER not a game winner. Aaron Brooks is a game changer. They change the game, by making spectacular plays, and bonehead plays. Vince Young is a game winner in college, but who is to say he won't just be another game CHANGER. That is where you are right. You are also right that perhaps the media now sees that Athletic QBs are just a passing fad and defenses easily defend against them. You are wrong to say that no mobile QB has ever been great unless they stopped running. Cunningham, McNabb, McNair, Moon, Pete, etc. are all Hall of Fame type QBs because of their mobility. Their ability to run out of the pocket and throw off their back foot, or just take off and run is what makes them great. Vick, IMHO, does not have the ability to read a defense and lure in the CBs acting like he will just take off. When Vick decides to takeoff he just goes. Luring in DBs is something I have seen Vince do. I think he understands that his feet are a 4th or 5th option on EVERY play. Does Young make bonehead plays..........Anyone who sat through the A&M game saw his poor decision making first hand. He was very ratlled, and that makes me nervous. I saw glimpses of Brooks duiring that game.

I would be very excited to have Jay Cutler on my beloved Saints team. There are several reasons......He has a strong arm, he is quick and mobile for a QB, he is very accurate and a polished passer. My next selection if there was no Cutler would be A.J. Hawk, if he wouldn't be there then Brickshaw would be an amazing addition, my 4th choice would be Young, only because his raw talent is just too much to look past. Where does Leinart fall on my list of options....................he would be around plan N. Why that low? Well like I have said on here 10 or 15 times before. I have seen him play every game. I saw him play against Oregon, ASU, ND, WSU, Whashington, and I have seen a quaterback that is the EXACT opposite of Jay Cutler. He had a perfect 10 supporting cast. Everyone of those last minute wins were won on the feet of Reggie Bush and Lindale White, and the ONE time he had to win with his arm, 2006 Rose Bowl, they lost. Why is that?????Lainart has a very sloppy pass. The ball wobbles out of his hand and is thrown behind his talented recievers. This is just what I have seen from him duiring games. If you watch his highlight reel you won't see many deep passes. They usually show him dumping the ball off to Bush or to his fullback or tightend. I also think he needs a lesson in attitude adjustment. He seriously reminds me of Ryan Leaf with a smaller arm. Could Leinart be great?.......................In Oakland maybe, or Denver(because of their focus on running backs), or even Tampa who has some great recievers, but as a Saint I really believe he would be a first round flop. I would rather see him prove me wrong for another team than to prove me right with my Saints.

One last disclaimer.......I am merely a fan of football, and do not know what is going on in the head of these kids, so hey take all this how you want. These are only opinions.

1999 Philadelphia Eagles 12 6 47 313 6.7 27 0 5 16
2000 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 86 629 7.3 54 6 6 31
2001 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 82 482 5.9 33 2 2 27
2002 Philadelphia Eagles 10 10 63 460 7.3 40 6 6 34
2003 Philadelphia Eagles 16 16 71 355 5.0 34 3 3 26
2004 Philadelphia Eagles 15 15 41 220 5.4 28 3 2 12
2005 Philadelphia Eagles 9 9 25 55 2.2 11 1 0 7
TOTAL 94 88 415 2514 6.1 54 21 24 153

4 2 11 38 3.5 13 0 0 2
1996 Houston Oilers 9 4 31 169 5.5 24 2 1 18
1997 Tennessee Oilers 16 16 101 674 6.7 47 8 9 50
1998 Tennessee Oilers 16 16 77 559 7.3 71 4 4 38
1999 Tennessee Titans 11 11 72 337 4.7 38 8 1 34
2000 Tennessee Titans 16 15 72 403 5.6 25 0 4 23
2001 Tennessee Titans 15 15 75 414 5.5 24 5 3 31
2002 Tennessee Titans 16 16 82 440 5.4 26 3 4 29
2003 Tennessee Titans 14 14 38 138 3.6 23 4 1 9
2004 Tennessee Titans 8 8 23 128 5.6 23 1 1 11
2005 Tennessee Titans 14 14 32 139 4.3 19 1 0 12
TOTAL 139 131 614 3439 5.6 71 36 28 257

| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1984 hou | 16 | 259 450 57.6 3338 7.4 12 14 | 58 211 1 |
| 1985 hou | 14 | 200 377 53.1 2709 7.2 15 19 | 39 130 0 |
| 1986 hou | 15 | 256 488 52.5 3489 7.1 13 26 | 42 157 2 |
| 1987 hou | 12 | 184 368 50.0 2806 7.6 21 18 | 34 112 3 |
| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |
| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |
| 1990 hou | 15 | 362 584 62.0 4689 8.0 33 13 | 55 215 2 |
| 1991 hou | 16 | 404 655 61.7 4690 7.2 23 21 | 33 68 2 |
| 1992 hou | 11 | 224 346 64.7 2521 7.3 18 12 | 27 147 1 |
| 1993 hou | 15 | 303 520 58.3 3485 6.7 21 21 | 48 145 1 |
| 1994 min | 15 | 371 601 61.7 4264 7.1 18 19 | 27 55 0 |
| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |
| 1996 min | 8 | 134 247 54.3 1610 6.5 7 9 | 9 6 0 |
| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |
| 1998 sea | 10 | 145 258 56.2 1632 6.3 11 8 | 16 10 0 |
| 1999 kan | 1 | 1 3 33.3 20 6.7 0 0 | 0 0 0 |
| 2000 kan | 2 | 15 34 44.1 208 6.1 1 1 | 2 2 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------

stats for mcnabb, mcnair, and moon as far as rushing and passing for their careers. first you can not even put moon into the argument because the guy never rushed for over 300 yards in a season. matter of fact he only rushed for over 200 three times. mcnair and mcnabb at their best did about 400 yards rushing per year. that is not exact and porbably over stated. if you are talking about rodney pete bro are you kidding me to even say him. i hope you are because that is a joke. cunningham sucked for nearly his entire career or was at best a better vick. the guy had a good year with the vkings. mcnair and mcnabb have done better throwing when they slowesd down their running. the two may not have anything to do with eah other more then the fact that they have both begun to throw muich more. that and they are both good at throwing the ball.

001 Atlanta Falcons 8 2 31 289 9.3 35 1 6 15
2002 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 113 777 6.9 46 8 10 44
2003 Atlanta Falcons 5 4 40 255 6.4 43 1 2 14
2004 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 120 902 7.5 58 3 10 49
2005 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 102 597 5.9 32 6

last is vicks rushing stats. notice the three times he has played 15 games he has rushed at a minimum for 597 yards. how does that compare at all to the other qb's. exactly my point