How in the world....
 

is Brees going to be better than Brooks. Not that he isn't a better player but over the last 3 years Brooks was constantly running for his life behind a pourous OL that all too often gave him less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. On top of that the receivers dropped 2+ passes a game. Sadly we have not addressed the OL except to not resign our top player and lose another.

This is a major mistake since Brees will never be as durable as Brooks was. Say what you want about Brooks but he could take a hit.... and return punch drunk but he stayed healthy.

Drafting Dbrick and a center and having to start them would be a really bad. I think you can get by with some of the people on defense but once Brees gets hurt... well we all know what will happen.

Have we brought in any OLmen? What is your opinion.

http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/...02outcome2.jpg

RE: How in the world....
 

Rookie OL can come in and contribute right away unlike other positions.

RE: How in the world....
 

Center... all of the line calls... don't think so. OT on QB blind side.... don't think so again because he goes up against the best pass rushers. You might get away with it for a little while but it is more likely that a rookie will miss an assignment and get your QB killed. Especially if you have more than one.

RE: How in the world....
 

One point I'll make is that Aaron Brooks made it easier for defenses to get to him because we cut the playbook in half. This makes it harder for our line to gain an advantage because they've had the same blocking schemes over and over again. It's for defenses when this happens because they know what's coming. Brooks also didn't feel the pocket well. Many times when the opposing DEs were putting on heavy pass rushes, our OTs would push them back, but instead of stepping up into the pocket, AB dropped back into them. This is one thing Brees does much better than Brooks. Brees also throws the ball when he's supposed to which will most often times make the rush a non-factor. Also, with new coaches instilling discipline and a new more complicated scheme, our line should be able to do a very good job of protection.

Not true. Like Euph said, OL is one of the few positions where rookies can usually step in and not miss a beat. Especially with very good players like Brick and Mangold.

Overall, I think Brees will be fine. Last year ESPN was hyping this team's best asset as our offensive line. Due to A LOT of injuries and a retarded-ly simple playbook, they had some troubles getting blocks. I really think this year will be different, and with a guy that the linemen actually WANT to protect, Brees should be able to make all the passes.

They will fix the O-Line this season, I just wish Aaron was still there. But I will still go for Brees.

Simply not true Duece. In the last 3 years Brooks had very little time and was always running for his life. Our OL was the most overrated then. When Roaf and Turley both left, the line turned to mush and Brooks with it. While I might somewhat agree that rookies can come in and start on the OL, it can also be argued that the OL is last to jell and 2 rookies I think will be a big mistake going against the schedule we face.

Brooks was making bad decisions pretty much every season but his first one. This is when Turley and Roaf were still there.

That being said, Brooks and Brees are two totally different types of quarterback. Brees never had the luxury of great athleticism that Brooks has had. He's had to hone his pocket skills, and it shows. In Brees' worst statistical season(barring his 1 game rookie season), his completion percentage was 57%. Brooks' highest ever(in '03) was 59%. If you don't think that's significant, then I don't know what to tell you. These stats tell me that Brees moves the chains and is able to balance out the offense. The D can't send the house if they don't know what you're going to do, and he completes a high enough percentage of his passes to make teams respect the pass, which opens up the run game. Brooks stood in the pocket too long because he didn't know how to check down. When would you ever see Brooks hold on to the ball for more than 3 seconds and complete the pass. Very rarely. He would fix on one reciever, and if he wasn't open either try to force it in there anyway or start running. Very rarely would you see him throw it away. The only plays he was consistently successful on were three-step drops to recievers on slant routes, which negated any pass rush. Also, he only had one kind of throw, and that was the bullet pass....no touch on the ball whatsoever. This meant that most of the fade and out patterns were virtually impossible to complete. This is why his completion percentage was so low for all of these seasons. You can't just blame it all on the line, although they deserve some of the blame too.

Look I was a fan of Brooks, but Duece has a point on the dropping back into the rush, although this really only started once Bently took over at Center, which can be blamed in large part on protection schemes called by the center, as there was always heavy pressure up the middle, which is why a QB will drop back.

Brooks lacked touch on his passes I will concede that, but lets not go to far with the dummed down playbook. That does not effect how the line blocks. Anticipation and scheme effects how the line blocks, Period, and evidence of that was shown in the lack of run game that this team exhibited.

If anyone thinks that signing Brees fixed all the problems on offense they are clearly living with Brooks Blinders on.

Clearly Brees brings the ability to read a defense and audible out at the line better than Brooks, but unless his arm heals completely we will be in for a long season.

i sure will be happy when the debates about what brooks did/did'nt or could/could'nt do disappear. he's just a backup on another roster now. well, maybe not on the raiders LOL.

1. We do have a center option, Mayberry. It may not be a wonderful option but he is a veteran that has played the position extensively before with the Eagles.

2. McKinney and Fowler came in for a visit. I have heard nothing to imply that either still may not sign here.

3. Ther are still quite a few other centers with starting experience available as free agents- Flanagan, Mitchell, Teague, etc.

Consequently, I am not worried about that position as much as some.

We do have 2 solid OL starters in Brown and Holland. Mayberry and Gandy certainly are not on the upswing of their careers but they are names with experience to have penciled in two slots until acquiring someone better. Stinchcomb still might be a player too. I look for at least one starter to be attained in the draft. It will only take another not great but just decent free agent signing to bring the starting 5 into focus.

As far as the line on a whole last year, it was the worst in a while. I wouldn't characterize Brooks as constantly running for his life the past 3 years though. As noted, many might have counted the OL as a team strength going into last season. Brooks actually had the most sacks in 2001 with 50. It has been consistent since then- 36, 34, 41, and last year's 33 in 13 games projecting to 41. That isn't great but it isn't as bad as David Carr's 208 in his first 60 games either.

My point is this.... I have about 100 saints games on tape and in many of those games, Brooks had 3 seconds to throw the ball and that is in slow motion before he had to run for his life. Wiithout a proper OL my fear is that Brees will get killed. It doesn't mean squat who your QB is if you don't have an experienced OL. Ditto the running game. This has nothing to do with Brooks, it has to do with blocking the man in front of you who is better than you... a lot better. If the OL continues to give Brees the same time, he's dead and we will be drafting in the top 3 again next year. Everybody wants to blame Brooks for everything, but the OL was the reason we lost so many games and that reflected on Brooks who couldn't handle the additional pressure.

Great QB always have a great running back, an excellent OL and receivers. If they are missing just one, they will struggle just like Brooks. Brooks was missing Duece and Horn, his receivers can't catch and no body blocked squat. He suffered from the triple wammie. Brooks never had to lock on receivers because the HAD NO TIME. Only when he lined up in the shotgun did he have enough time to get rid of the ball. Remember, I''m not taking up for Brooks, I'm just saying that Brees and our current OL will get him killed and if you think that a rookie tackle and center will be the answer, you are crazy. OL take time to jell at Brees left shoulder's expense. We need an ex[perienced players on the OL. And what if Mangold isn't there in the second round.... we're screwed.

Having said that, I see your points and hope to god you are correct.

False starts and Holding penalties killed the saints. That's not on the QB. Unless thats solved no one can overcome consistant 1st second and third and longs. That's not due to dumbed down playbooks just poor play

Hmmmm...this all sounds too familiar..... :bang:

some of the drops by the w.o. was because the ball was poorly thrown or there was no touch on the ball. every ball looked to be thrown a hundred miles an hour. it didn't matter if it was five yards away. in 2003 brooks had his best year in terms of td's to int's. in 2004 he threw for his second most amount of yards in his career only 22 less then 2001. what is the argument?

A lot of the issue with Brooks is that he was unable to read defenses then check out of unfavorable plays to plays that matched up to what he saw (in a timely fashion - see the innumerable posts on timeouts on the second play of the game). Most of the o-line's problem wasn't lack of talent or schemes, it was being overwhelmed. Defenses lined up 8 in the box and blitzed most downs because putting any pressure on Brooks meant that he'd make a mistake in either not checking out or running into the oncoming rush. While dummying down the playbook has some posters dismissing its effect on the offense's performance, it's hard to argue that if your rate limiting piece is your qb, it is very hard to gain a strategic advantage when your playbook/playcalling is your strategic advantage. The pressure on the o-line because of this caused many of the penalty/confusion issues.

All that being said, no one can downplay the negative effect of the McCarthy era OC.

OK....Brooks is gone. Could we please stop this crap?

Any discussion of the line and all the tape you watched has to include him turning 3 step drops into 8 step drops and missing open receivers....running around in circles and throwing into triple coverage. I guess that double pump int for a td to Al Harris was the lines fault?And all the unforced fumbles....that was the TE's fault. That's just silly. The drops, the line, blah, blah, blah.

3 seconds in slo mo huh? I gotta see these tapes.

Follow his bunk ass to the Raiders and let me know how that works out for you.

I agree that Brees will be better able to read defenses (see above). II agree totally

forever, you may not be taking up for brooks but it sure sounds like you are. he is done and gone to me and is of very little interest. many though still suffer from the anguish he inflicted over 5 years will take your statements very critically.

You say quartebacks will be great only when they have a great running back, and excellent offensive line, and receivers. If they do not they will struggle like Aaron Brooks did. Whew! First, I want avoid brooks debate but will say he struggled plenty of times even when he had the best of these components when here. Second, you are basically saying then a quarteback can only be great if he is on a great offensive team- RB, line, and receivers is all else there is. I will only say you should peruse the history and record books of the NFL. I will throw out some Hall of Fame quarterbacks that still performed at premium level even when on some dreadful teams that often lacked some of those components mightily-
Dan Fouts
Sonny Jurgensen
Warren Moon
Joe Namath
Fran Tarkenton
Look'em up. Sure, you need support to win but great players still are identifiable on bad teams or without support. They all had some off years I am sure. But say any player will struggle like Brooks if you are missing a component is quite a leap IMO.

Why is anyone entertaining ANOTHER fluffy Brooks thread? A gimpy armed Brees is better than Aaron Brooks, cause he laps him in intelligence, football IQ, accuracy, leadership, and camraderie. But, IT DOESN'T MATTER. That over-hyped meatball IQ simpleton will be someone else's problem, and all the people who were crying about how great he would be on another team, will have excuses as for why that team wasn't the right fit either. The moron is gone, let it be. If you wanna say Brees is the wrong QB, fine. But why does it have to be in compared to AB? That guy is a loser, and he's gone. People who think he is anything but back-up material will soon have to come with new excuses once he ruins another team.

...we need to call the Guinness Book of Records... most handles in one forum...

Here's a little somethin' somethin' that I call:

Lil' things Brees (if healthy) Will Introduce This Year We Haven't Seen In Ages:

1.- Screen pass
2.- Unpredictability.
3.- Passes thrown in front of the receivers
4.- Quick decisions
5.- 3-step drops

... I am not going to say that the Saints o-line has been great, but there's just so much they can do when:
- There are no screen passes thrown: If the defense knows you can't throw a screen pass to save your life, no reason why hold the rush.
- The defenses know what you are going to do. When you limit the offense to calling certain plays certain way, it takes a lot of the guess work by the defense out of the equation.
- All pass plays involve the QB dropping back 7 steps or more and see what develops, or trying to go for the bomb...
- The QB panics and instead of using the pocket he tries to flee out of it.

Brees is not great by any means, but he'll brings something to the table we have not seen in years at the QB position: brains.


.. I just hope he brings the shoulder with 'em noggin

hehe, i told ya forever.

maybe you haven't suffered like we have watching him. after he signs somewhere i would like to see a no brooks thread policy. not even to laugh or criticize him. it's kinda like divorce, i'd rather not even think about that biatch than even know about the loser she got tangled up with.

Agreed, I'm thrilled to have a guy that won't be backing out of his protection on every pass play.

Brooks at times made the OL look bad because he cannot read a defense these guys cannot block forever. Bouman was a bust but did you notice the OL did not look as bad when he played because he got the ball out of his hands faster than brooks.

Lil' things Brees (if healthy) Will Introduce This Year We Haven't Seen In Ages:

1.- Screen pass
2.- Unpredictability.
3.- Passes thrown in front of the receivers
4.- Quick decisions
5.- 3-step drops

Come on TR....give AB some credit, I thought he accomplished #2 quite nicely, we never knew what he was going to screw up next.

Breesesus Christ already.... I'm not taking up for Brooks.... I'm just saying that many of the problems that Brooks had last year with his offensive line are not being fixed and will continue to hamper Brees in the same manner. Believe me, I glad Brooks is gone. Some of ya'll hate Brooks so bad that you are missing the point completely. Seriously... you have me laughing so hard it hurts.
:bart: :help:

i warned ya

:cheers:

Just don't mention his name again around here buddy, LOL

--maybe this: if Payton corectly estimated and implemented the need for change at QB correctly, then let's think he probably understands the OL issues as well and will do the same. Six weeks before the draft with plenty of FA lineman still out there is a little early to ring the fire alarm.

This is akin to someone having a gun in your back and the other hand in your pocket, and repeatedly saying, "Really, i'm not robbing you. I'm doing you a favor. The guy around the corner might have robbed you too, so i'm not robbing you." You ARE taking up for Brooks, every time youmake up an excuse for his piss poor play. You can say you're not as many times as you like, seems the majority of the forum see it differently.

Remember the OL... 3 seconds in slow motion.... I have the tapes... it is over and over the last 3 years... sure hope you guys are right but in full motion he only had a second and a half. Here hoping that brains beats out muscle.

Oh yea Kelly... all of those QB played there greatest football when they had the time to throw the ball. Fran Tarkenton would have to run for his life behind our OL the past few years. Excellent highlite reels.

Again this is not a I love Brooks thread. It is a we need a freaking offensive line thread or Brees is going to get killed. Where is the beef?

And Kelly... I'm sure Brooks's name is going to continue to be mentioned. You bring up some valid point about the offseason. I just need to know that Brees back is covered and I don't want to rely on rookies to do the majority of it.

Hey by the way... Anybody want a Brooks jersey....

... you are the one that doesn't get it...

... what you don't get is that some mof those problems you saw with the line were directly related to the play of the QB:
- holding on to the ball too long
- not being able to do a 3-step drop
- not being able to throw a screen pass
- paniking and bailing out of the pocket rather than stepping into the pocket and using it
- not being able to memorize an NFL playbook, therefore making the offense that much more predictable: the Saints either handed the Ball or attempted a pass of 20+... all of these things make the job of the o-line that much harder..

... Brees can throw screens, can do 3-step drops and hit screen passes, Brees can memorize an NFL-sized playbook, and seems to use the pocket well... just those three factors alone will buy him time and keep opposing defenses back, and will make the o-line's job easier...


..and that "3 seconds in slow motion" is BS... it is blatantly false...

Hey SaintWhoDi

Is that a gun in your pocket are you just trying to argue with me.

Remember, Brooks was not the only problem last year and he had to handle the ball every play no matter how bad everybody else played.

It really maginified his weaknesses while not showcasing his strengths.

Still in Brooks defense... he did have some very good seasons, own most of the QB records, had more come from behind victories 26 and is the only QB in saints history that could make a 3rd and 25 yards to go play. He has some strengths.... but his weaknesses on a very poor team easily overshadowed them.

I hope he goes to the Raiders and does great in a vertical passing game that suits him well.

Tobias - Your points are well taken. Hopefully he can do it behind our OL this season and not get killed. The saints haven't be able to run a screen since Archie Manning.

Man I hope I don't get flamed for this.... just stating facts....

Brees hopefully will remind us of Archie Manning... haveing said that Brooks owns most of Archie's records. (just a fact ok) Archie was a great QB but was terrible until we got a supporting cast. I remember him running for his life for 7 seasons. Sure he was smart, mobile and could throw the hell out of the screen pass and 5 and outs, and was a great game manager, but when it was 3rd and very long... he never made those plays because he was runnig for his life after a second and a half. He did however throw a catachable ball, completed a higher precentage of passes... for 1 to 5 yards short of the first down, for losses the the backfield and this helped his completeion percentage.

FYI FACT: Archie was the saints leading all time rusher until George Rodgers.

It wasn't until 1978 and 1979 before Archie had a break out season. I remember an important pick up that season, guard Conrad Dobler. We need a person like because we have all of the other parts that Archie had in 1978 and 1979 except the offensive line, FB Tony Galbreath and TE Henry Childs. Those two seasons were one of the greatest seasons to be a saints fan. It can happen again if Brees can stay healthy.

That my friends is the primary objective.

For you youngsters that never saw Tony Galbreath play.... he could have been a great tailback because he could run, he was fast, he had incredible moves and could make people miss and he had some of the best hands ever for a FB. Does anybody ever remember seeing a FB like him in recent years? I don't. The saints always lined up in a pro-set and nobody ever knew where they were going with the ball. It was great. Hank Stram knew what he was doing.

i tried
:puke:

who are you blaming for our inability to run the screen?

My brother who lives in FL who played QB for years thought the same thing until he saw the tapes.... it happens so fast you can't believe it. Brooks was so bad with the 3 step drop because people were in his face. Five step drop not much better. Countless times there was no place to step up... you you step out. He couldn't handle it. Hopefully a smarter QB will eliminate muscle and being overpowered up front. It worked for Elway, Marino and Peyton.

Luckly Brooks had the talent to avoid the rush and many times to out run it. When QBs hold the ball too long it's because no one is open or they ran the wrong route. This leads to sacks and fumbles. Remember the who team was bad.

Hopefully a smarter QB will eliminate muscle and being overpowered up front. It worked for Elway, Marino and Peyton.

Do any of you think a bad team can make a good QB look bad? I don't want this to happen to Brees. Why do you think he wanted to go to Miami? I'm sick of looking at the offseason with blinders.

Errrr..... Tom Benson....??????

why not go higher than that....blame God.

You do realize that the best season we ever had the pope was in town so you might have a point. This is a whole diffenent disscussion.

i seem to remember that.

my point was blaming Benson is an easy out. you claim to have footage of games from previous seasons, i'm sure you can find a few plays where we tried to run the screen, and it didn't work. the reasons vary, but starts with the fact that Brooks has NEVER been able to hide his primary target, and defenses read that.

check-off receiver? what's that?

I swear I've seen this arguement somewhere.....man this is killin me!!!! :cursing:

http://www.snarkymalarkey.com/Cat_With_Rifle.jpg

Calm down Lee Harvey... he didn't mean it.