How in the world....

foreverfan · 03-21-2006, 12:40 AM

is Brees going to be better than Brooks. Not that he isn't a better player but over the last 3 years Brooks was constantly running for his life behind a pourous OL that all too often gave him less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. On top of that the receivers dropped 2+ passes a game. Sadly we have not addressed the OL except to not resign our top player and lose another.

This is a major mistake since Brees will never be as durable as Brooks was. Say what you want about Brooks but he could take a hit.... and return punch drunk but he stayed healthy.

Drafting Dbrick and a center and having to start them would be a really bad. I think you can get by with some of the people on defense but once Brees gets hurt... well we all know what will happen.

Have we brought in any OLmen? What is your opinion.

Euphoria · 03-21-2006, 01:30 AM

Rookie OL can come in and contribute right away unlike other positions.

foreverfan · 03-21-2006, 01:37 AM

Center... all of the line calls... don't think so. OT on QB blind side.... don't think so again because he goes up against the best pass rushers. You might get away with it for a little while but it is more likely that a rookie will miss an assignment and get your QB killed. Especially if you have more than one.

TheDeuce · 03-21-2006, 01:45 AM

is Brees going to be better than Brooks. Not that he isn't a better player but over the last 3 years Brooks was constantly running for his life behind a pourous OL that all too often gave him less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. On top of that the receivers dropped 2+ passes a game. Sadly we have not addressed the OL except to not resign our top player and lose another.

One point I'll make is that Aaron Brooks made it easier for defenses to get to him because we cut the playbook in half. This makes it harder for our line to gain an advantage because they've had the same blocking schemes over and over again. It's for defenses when this happens because they know what's coming. Brooks also didn't feel the pocket well. Many times when the opposing DEs were putting on heavy pass rushes, our OTs would push them back, but instead of stepping up into the pocket, AB dropped back into them. This is one thing Brees does much better than Brooks. Brees also throws the ball when he's supposed to which will most often times make the rush a non-factor. Also, with new coaches instilling discipline and a new more complicated scheme, our line should be able to do a very good job of protection.

Drafting Dbrick and a center and having to start them would be a really bad. I think you can get by with some of the people on defense but once Brees gets hurt... well we all know what will happen.

Not true. Like Euph said, OL is one of the few positions where rookies can usually step in and not miss a beat. Especially with very good players like Brick and Mangold.

Overall, I think Brees will be fine. Last year ESPN was hyping this team's best asset as our offensive line. Due to A LOT of injuries and a retarded-ly simple playbook, they had some troubles getting blocks. I really think this year will be different, and with a guy that the linemen actually WANT to protect, Brees should be able to make all the passes.

saintsrule · 03-21-2006, 02:00 AM

They will fix the O-Line this season, I just wish Aaron was still there. But I will still go for Brees.

foreverfan · 03-21-2006, 02:29 AM

Simply not true Duece. In the last 3 years Brooks had very little time and was always running for his life. Our OL was the most overrated then. When Roaf and Turley both left, the line turned to mush and Brooks with it. While I might somewhat agree that rookies can come in and start on the OL, it can also be argued that the OL is last to jell and 2 rookies I think will be a big mistake going against the schedule we face.

GoldRush26 · 03-21-2006, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by foreverfan

Simply not true Duece. In the last 3 years Brooks had very little time and was always running for his life. Our OL was the most overrated then. When Roaf and Turley both left, the line turned to mush and Brooks with it. While I might somewhat agree that rookies can come in and start on the OL, it can also be argued that the OL is last to jell and 2 rookies I think will be a big mistake going against the schedule we face.

Brooks was making bad decisions pretty much every season but his first one. This is when Turley and Roaf were still there.

That being said, Brooks and Brees are two totally different types of quarterback. Brees never had the luxury of great athleticism that Brooks has had. He's had to hone his pocket skills, and it shows. In Brees' worst statistical season(barring his 1 game rookie season), his completion percentage was 57%. Brooks' highest ever(in '03) was 59%. If you don't think that's significant, then I don't know what to tell you. These stats tell me that Brees moves the chains and is able to balance out the offense. The D can't send the house if they don't know what you're going to do, and he completes a high enough percentage of his passes to make teams respect the pass, which opens up the run game. Brooks stood in the pocket too long because he didn't know how to check down. When would you ever see Brooks hold on to the ball for more than 3 seconds and complete the pass. Very rarely. He would fix on one reciever, and if he wasn't open either try to force it in there anyway or start running. Very rarely would you see him throw it away. The only plays he was consistently successful on were three-step drops to recievers on slant routes, which negated any pass rush. Also, he only had one kind of throw, and that was the bullet pass....no touch on the ball whatsoever. This meant that most of the fade and out patterns were virtually impossible to complete. This is why his completion percentage was so low for all of these seasons. You can't just blame it all on the line, although they deserve some of the blame too.

FanNJ · 03-21-2006, 08:25 AM

Look I was a fan of Brooks, but Duece has a point on the dropping back into the rush, although this really only started once Bently took over at Center, which can be blamed in large part on protection schemes called by the center, as there was always heavy pressure up the middle, which is why a QB will drop back.

Brooks lacked touch on his passes I will concede that, but lets not go to far with the dummed down playbook. That does not effect how the line blocks. Anticipation and scheme effects how the line blocks, Period, and evidence of that was shown in the lack of run game that this team exhibited.

If anyone thinks that signing Brees fixed all the problems on offense they are clearly living with Brooks Blinders on.

Clearly Brees brings the ability to read a defense and audible out at the line better than Brooks, but unless his arm heals completely we will be in for a long season.

LKelley67 · 03-21-2006, 08:50 AM

i sure will be happy when the debates about what brooks did/did'nt or could/could'nt do disappear. he's just a backup on another roster now. well, maybe not on the raiders LOL.

1. We do have a center option, Mayberry. It may not be a wonderful option but he is a veteran that has played the position extensively before with the Eagles.

2. McKinney and Fowler came in for a visit. I have heard nothing to imply that either still may not sign here.

3. Ther are still quite a few other centers with starting experience available as free agents- Flanagan, Mitchell, Teague, etc.

Consequently, I am not worried about that position as much as some.

We do have 2 solid OL starters in Brown and Holland. Mayberry and Gandy certainly are not on the upswing of their careers but they are names with experience to have penciled in two slots until acquiring someone better. Stinchcomb still might be a player too. I look for at least one starter to be attained in the draft. It will only take another not great but just decent free agent signing to bring the starting 5 into focus.

As far as the line on a whole last year, it was the worst in a while. I wouldn't characterize Brooks as constantly running for his life the past 3 years though. As noted, many might have counted the OL as a team strength going into last season. Brooks actually had the most sacks in 2001 with 50. It has been consistent since then- 36, 34, 41, and last year's 33 in 13 games projecting to 41. That isn't great but it isn't as bad as David Carr's 208 in his first 60 games either.

foreverfan · 03-21-2006, 08:53 AM

My point is this.... I have about 100 saints games on tape and in many of those games, Brooks had 3 seconds to throw the ball and that is in slow motion before he had to run for his life. Wiithout a proper OL my fear is that Brees will get killed. It doesn't mean squat who your QB is if you don't have an experienced OL. Ditto the running game. This has nothing to do with Brooks, it has to do with blocking the man in front of you who is better than you... a lot better. If the OL continues to give Brees the same time, he's dead and we will be drafting in the top 3 again next year. Everybody wants to blame Brooks for everything, but the OL was the reason we lost so many games and that reflected on Brooks who couldn't handle the additional pressure.

Great QB always have a great running back, an excellent OL and receivers. If they are missing just one, they will struggle just like Brooks. Brooks was missing Duece and Horn, his receivers can't catch and no body blocked squat. He suffered from the triple wammie. Brooks never had to lock on receivers because the HAD NO TIME. Only when he lined up in the shotgun did he have enough time to get rid of the ball. Remember, I''m not taking up for Brooks, I'm just saying that Brees and our current OL will get him killed and if you think that a rookie tackle and center will be the answer, you are crazy. OL take time to jell at Brees left shoulder's expense. We need an ex[perienced players on the OL. And what if Mangold isn't there in the second round.... we're screwed.

Having said that, I see your points and hope to god you are correct.

03-21-2006, 12:40 AM	#1
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	How in the world.... is Brees going to be better than Brooks. Not that he isn't a better player but over the last 3 years Brooks was constantly running for his life behind a pourous OL that all too often gave him less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. On top of that the receivers dropped 2+ passes a game. Sadly we have not addressed the OL except to not resign our top player and lose another. This is a major mistake since Brees will never be as durable as Brooks was. Say what you want about Brooks but he could take a hit.... and return punch drunk but he stayed healthy. Drafting Dbrick and a center and having to start them would be a really bad. I think you can get by with some of the people on defense but once Brees gets hurt... well we all know what will happen. Have we brought in any OLmen? What is your opinion.
	2019 Death of a Parrot.

03-21-2006, 01:30 AM	#2
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	RE: How in the world.... Rookie OL can come in and contribute right away unlike other positions.

03-21-2006, 01:37 AM	#3
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	RE: How in the world.... Center... all of the line calls... don't think so. OT on QB blind side.... don't think so again because he goes up against the best pass rushers. You might get away with it for a little while but it is more likely that a rookie will miss an assignment and get your QB killed. Especially if you have more than one.

03-21-2006, 01:45 AM	#4
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928	RE: How in the world.... is Brees going to be better than Brooks. Not that he isn't a better player but over the last 3 years Brooks was constantly running for his life behind a pourous OL that all too often gave him less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. On top of that the receivers dropped 2+ passes a game. Sadly we have not addressed the OL except to not resign our top player and lose another. One point I'll make is that Aaron Brooks made it easier for defenses to get to him because we cut the playbook in half. This makes it harder for our line to gain an advantage because they've had the same blocking schemes over and over again. It's for defenses when this happens because they know what's coming. Brooks also didn't feel the pocket well. Many times when the opposing DEs were putting on heavy pass rushes, our OTs would push them back, but instead of stepping up into the pocket, AB dropped back into them. This is one thing Brees does much better than Brooks. Brees also throws the ball when he's supposed to which will most often times make the rush a non-factor. Also, with new coaches instilling discipline and a new more complicated scheme, our line should be able to do a very good job of protection. Drafting Dbrick and a center and having to start them would be a really bad. I think you can get by with some of the people on defense but once Brees gets hurt... well we all know what will happen. Not true. Like Euph said, OL is one of the few positions where rookies can usually step in and not miss a beat. Especially with very good players like Brick and Mangold. Overall, I think Brees will be fine. Last year ESPN was hyping this team's best asset as our offensive line. Due to A LOT of injuries and a retarded-ly simple playbook, they had some troubles getting blocks. I really think this year will be different, and with a guy that the linemen actually WANT to protect, Brees should be able to make all the passes.
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03-21-2006, 02:00 AM	#5
saintsrule 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 657	They will fix the O-Line this season, I just wish Aaron was still there. But I will still go for Brees.
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03-21-2006, 02:29 AM	#6
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	Simply not true Duece. In the last 3 years Brooks had very little time and was always running for his life. Our OL was the most overrated then. When Roaf and Turley both left, the line turned to mush and Brooks with it. While I might somewhat agree that rookies can come in and start on the OL, it can also be argued that the OL is last to jell and 2 rookies I think will be a big mistake going against the schedule we face.

03-21-2006, 02:56 AM	#7
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594	Originally Posted by foreverfan Simply not true Duece. In the last 3 years Brooks had very little time and was always running for his life. Our OL was the most overrated then. When Roaf and Turley both left, the line turned to mush and Brooks with it. While I might somewhat agree that rookies can come in and start on the OL, it can also be argued that the OL is last to jell and 2 rookies I think will be a big mistake going against the schedule we face. Brooks was making bad decisions pretty much every season but his first one. This is when Turley and Roaf were still there. That being said, Brooks and Brees are two totally different types of quarterback. Brees never had the luxury of great athleticism that Brooks has had. He's had to hone his pocket skills, and it shows. In Brees' worst statistical season(barring his 1 game rookie season), his completion percentage was 57%. Brooks' highest ever(in '03) was 59%. If you don't think that's significant, then I don't know what to tell you. These stats tell me that Brees moves the chains and is able to balance out the offense. The D can't send the house if they don't know what you're going to do, and he completes a high enough percentage of his passes to make teams respect the pass, which opens up the run game. Brooks stood in the pocket too long because he didn't know how to check down. When would you ever see Brooks hold on to the ball for more than 3 seconds and complete the pass. Very rarely. He would fix on one reciever, and if he wasn't open either try to force it in there anyway or start running. Very rarely would you see him throw it away. The only plays he was consistently successful on were three-step drops to recievers on slant routes, which negated any pass rush. Also, he only had one kind of throw, and that was the bullet pass....no touch on the ball whatsoever. This meant that most of the fade and out patterns were virtually impossible to complete. This is why his completion percentage was so low for all of these seasons. You can't just blame it all on the line, although they deserve some of the blame too.
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594

03-21-2006, 08:25 AM	#8
FanNJ 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 324	Look I was a fan of Brooks, but Duece has a point on the dropping back into the rush, although this really only started once Bently took over at Center, which can be blamed in large part on protection schemes called by the center, as there was always heavy pressure up the middle, which is why a QB will drop back. Brooks lacked touch on his passes I will concede that, but lets not go to far with the dummed down playbook. That does not effect how the line blocks. Anticipation and scheme effects how the line blocks, Period, and evidence of that was shown in the lack of run game that this team exhibited. If anyone thinks that signing Brees fixed all the problems on offense they are clearly living with Brooks Blinders on. Clearly Brees brings the ability to read a defense and audible out at the line better than Brooks, but unless his arm heals completely we will be in for a long season.
FanNJ 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 324

03-21-2006, 08:50 AM	#9
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	i sure will be happy when the debates about what brooks did/did'nt or could/could'nt do disappear. he's just a backup on another roster now. well, maybe not on the raiders LOL. 1. We do have a center option, Mayberry. It may not be a wonderful option but he is a veteran that has played the position extensively before with the Eagles. 2. McKinney and Fowler came in for a visit. I have heard nothing to imply that either still may not sign here. 3. Ther are still quite a few other centers with starting experience available as free agents- Flanagan, Mitchell, Teague, etc. Consequently, I am not worried about that position as much as some. We do have 2 solid OL starters in Brown and Holland. Mayberry and Gandy certainly are not on the upswing of their careers but they are names with experience to have penciled in two slots until acquiring someone better. Stinchcomb still might be a player too. I look for at least one starter to be attained in the draft. It will only take another not great but just decent free agent signing to bring the starting 5 into focus. As far as the line on a whole last year, it was the worst in a while. I wouldn't characterize Brooks as constantly running for his life the past 3 years though. As noted, many might have counted the OL as a team strength going into last season. Brooks actually had the most sacks in 2001 with 50. It has been consistent since then- 36, 34, 41, and last year's 33 in 13 games projecting to 41. That isn't great but it isn't as bad as David Carr's 208 in his first 60 games either.

03-21-2006, 08:53 AM	#10
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	My point is this.... I have about 100 saints games on tape and in many of those games, Brooks had 3 seconds to throw the ball and that is in slow motion before he had to run for his life. Wiithout a proper OL my fear is that Brees will get killed. It doesn't mean squat who your QB is if you don't have an experienced OL. Ditto the running game. This has nothing to do with Brooks, it has to do with blocking the man in front of you who is better than you... a lot better. If the OL continues to give Brees the same time, he's dead and we will be drafting in the top 3 again next year. Everybody wants to blame Brooks for everything, but the OL was the reason we lost so many games and that reflected on Brooks who couldn't handle the additional pressure. Great QB always have a great running back, an excellent OL and receivers. If they are missing just one, they will struggle just like Brooks. Brooks was missing Duece and Horn, his receivers can't catch and no body blocked squat. He suffered from the triple wammie. Brooks never had to lock on receivers because the HAD NO TIME. Only when he lined up in the shotgun did he have enough time to get rid of the ball. Remember, I''m not taking up for Brooks, I'm just saying that Brees and our current OL will get him killed and if you think that a rookie tackle and center will be the answer, you are crazy. OL take time to jell at Brees left shoulder's expense. We need an ex[perienced players on the OL. And what if Mangold isn't there in the second round.... we're screwed. Having said that, I see your points and hope to god you are correct.
	2019 Death of a Parrot.