Just to beat the Brooks debate to death...

BillyCarpenter1 · 06-15-2003, 07:54 PM

WhoDat,

That\'s funny man. We were not talking about the Saints. We were talking about do you change the system to fit the players or vice-versa, with no preconceived situation. And yes the Saints changed the offense to fit the players. They started out with all intentions of running a West Coast Offense. But having to play the Rams twice per year(when they were in our divison, they kind of modeled their offense after them. The Saints just changed their defensive sytem to utilize Sullivan or did you not read about that?

Read this and get back with me?

June 13, 2003) -- Given the choice between improving with potentially great new players or potentially great new strategy, any rational NFL coach would say there is nothing to choose.

Talent always comes first.

Yet even in areas their teams have addressed with high draft picks and/or high-profile free agents, coaches will still seek ways to maximize their productivity. They will still tinker, adjust, modify and perhaps overhaul. They will do anything and everything within the realm of their playbooks and philosophy to make certain they are getting the most out of the players they have.

Five prime examples can be found in the offseason workouts of teams trying to upgrade their defensive lines:

New Orleans Saints: They made a bold move in the draft, trading up to select Johnathan Sullivan. Now Jim Haslett and his defensive assistant coaches are showing some creativity in utilizing his ample size (6-foot-3 and 313 pounds), strength and quickness.

Sullivan has been lining up at nose tackle, a position usually associated with the lone occupant in the middle of a three-man front. The Saints still employ a four-man look, but their tackles aren\'t designated in normal left-right terms. Sullivan is on the nose, directly across from the center, and a \"three-technique\" tackle lines up on one side of Sullivan or the other in an effort to exploit certain blockers or blocking schemes, or just to create confusion.

[Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 06-15-2003, 10:10 PM

The Saints traded Ricky Williams because they felt Deuce fit better into the style of offense they wanted to run. You fit players into your system. If you run a defense that demands man coverage you don\'t go drafting players that have had four years of college in zone and you don\'t sign free agents that don\'t match up well as one on one cover men. You get players that play that style of defense.

I don\'t care how talented a player is at the thing he\'s good at. If he can\'t do what the team wants him to do you get the guy that can.

BillyCarpenter1 · 06-15-2003, 10:16 PM

LummOx,

While that is basically true, not always. What if your the coach of a team that runs a ball control offense and the next year you are coaching the Rams offense? Do you run the same system. Futhermore, you might not revamp your whole system but you do change it somewhat to take advantage of a players strength. If not they are very foolish.

And one more thing. Is that why in the draft a team usually takes the best player on the board and doesn\'t draft for need?

[Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 06-15-2003, 10:21 PM

First off, if I run a ball contrl offense on one team, I don\'t take a job with a team where I have no experience running the style they currently play, or I see if their bringing me in there to make the change over. And if so, either the players accept my style changes or they know in advance they will be walked if they can\'t fit.

No one brings in a coach or coordinator that runs a system opposite what their currently set up to run unless they want the change to happen. Coaches and coordinators specialize just like players.

BillyCarpenter1 · 06-15-2003, 10:26 PM

No one brings in a coach or coordinator that runs a system opposite what their currently set up to run unless they want the change to happen.Coachesandcoordinators specialize just like players.

Really? Didn\'t Tampa bring in Gruden. I belive he ran a totally different offense in Oakland but he took the same players that Tampa had the year before and adjusted his offesive style to the players he had. Am I wrong here?

lumm0x · 06-15-2003, 10:30 PM

That teams are drafting the best available player is a very recent occurence and is a luxury afforded to few teams today. As you know, teams have both a wish list, a need list and a ranking list. They will always try to combine them into a single player. I\'m certain the reason the Saints drafted Deuce was not simply because he was the best available, but because they saw how they wanted to change from a ground and pound offense and he would fit better. Plus at the time Ricky was injury prone and they needed depth. He filled a less prominent need, but the weight of the pick was good for need and value.

No team drafts a player they have no intention of using or baiting another team with. They had no intention of parking him for 10 years just because he was the best guy on the board.

lumm0x · 06-15-2003, 10:32 PM

The ownership and GM wanted a full bore offensive change. That\'s just what I said. They didn\'t want him to come in and run the old Buc O. And Gruden brought players in to fit his system and turfed the ones that couldn\'t.

You just added to what I said.

The offense he ran in Oakland was very similar to what he did in Tampa.

[Edited on 16/6/2003 by lumm0x]

BillyCarpenter1 · 06-15-2003, 10:34 PM

The truth is we\'re both right. It just depeds on the situation. If a coach goes to a team that is at or near the bottom, they get players to fit the system they want to run. If they go to a team that is talented they adjust their offensive scheme. Wouldn\'t you agree?

LummOx,

You can\'t be serious about Tampa running the same offense as Oakland. It was nowhere close. Look at some game film man...LOL

[Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 06-15-2003, 10:36 PM

I think both coaches and players try to migrate to what best suits their skills.
Agreed.

Oakland didn\'t run the same O last year, but in the Gruden era you can definitely see the influences Gruden has brought to the Bucs that mirrored the Raider stuff. Truth be, some of the current Bucs really fit well into Gruden\'s plan already. You have to admit that their offense was more 2001 Raider than it was 2001 Buc wasn\'t it. He didn\'t have all the pieces in place last year and I think you\'ll see it get more Raiderish every year.

[Edited on 16/6/2003 by lumm0x]

BillyCarpenter1 · 06-15-2003, 10:47 PM

No, I don\'t agree. He pouded Alstot and thew short passes, pretty much like Tampa did the year before. Oakland threw the ball all over the field. He tried to do some things simular to what Okland did, but in the end he had to adjust his system to the players he had.

06-15-2003, 07:54 PM	#11
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... WhoDat, That\'s funny man. We were not talking about the Saints. We were talking about do you change the system to fit the players or vice-versa, with no preconceived situation. And yes the Saints changed the offense to fit the players. They started out with all intentions of running a West Coast Offense. But having to play the Rams twice per year(when they were in our divison, they kind of modeled their offense after them. The Saints just changed their defensive sytem to utilize Sullivan or did you not read about that? Read this and get back with me? June 13, 2003) -- Given the choice between improving with potentially great new players or potentially great new strategy, any rational NFL coach would say there is nothing to choose. Talent always comes first. Yet even in areas their teams have addressed with high draft picks and/or high-profile free agents, coaches will still seek ways to maximize their productivity. They will still tinker, adjust, modify and perhaps overhaul. They will do anything and everything within the realm of their playbooks and philosophy to make certain they are getting the most out of the players they have. Five prime examples can be found in the offseason workouts of teams trying to upgrade their defensive lines: New Orleans Saints: They made a bold move in the draft, trading up to select Johnathan Sullivan. Now Jim Haslett and his defensive assistant coaches are showing some creativity in utilizing his ample size (6-foot-3 and 313 pounds), strength and quickness. Sullivan has been lining up at nose tackle, a position usually associated with the lone occupant in the middle of a three-man front. The Saints still employ a four-man look, but their tackles aren\'t designated in normal left-right terms. Sullivan is on the nose, directly across from the center, and a \"three-technique\" tackle lines up on one side of Sullivan or the other in an effort to exploit certain blockers or blocking schemes, or just to create confusion. [Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

06-15-2003, 10:10 PM	#12
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... The Saints traded Ricky Williams because they felt Deuce fit better into the style of offense they wanted to run. You fit players into your system. If you run a defense that demands man coverage you don\'t go drafting players that have had four years of college in zone and you don\'t sign free agents that don\'t match up well as one on one cover men. You get players that play that style of defense. I don\'t care how talented a player is at the thing he\'s good at. If he can\'t do what the team wants him to do you get the guy that can.

06-15-2003, 10:16 PM	#13
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... LummOx, While that is basically true, not always. What if your the coach of a team that runs a ball control offense and the next year you are coaching the Rams offense? Do you run the same system. Futhermore, you might not revamp your whole system but you do change it somewhat to take advantage of a players strength. If not they are very foolish. And one more thing. Is that why in the draft a team usually takes the best player on the board and doesn\'t draft for need? [Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

06-15-2003, 10:21 PM	#14
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... First off, if I run a ball contrl offense on one team, I don\'t take a job with a team where I have no experience running the style they currently play, or I see if their bringing me in there to make the change over. And if so, either the players accept my style changes or they know in advance they will be walked if they can\'t fit. No one brings in a coach or coordinator that runs a system opposite what their currently set up to run unless they want the change to happen. Coaches and coordinators specialize just like players.

06-15-2003, 10:26 PM	#15
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... No one brings in a coach or coordinator that runs a system opposite what their currently set up to run unless they want the change to happen.Coachesandcoordinators specialize just like players. Really? Didn\'t Tampa bring in Gruden. I belive he ran a totally different offense in Oakland but he took the same players that Tampa had the year before and adjusted his offesive style to the players he had. Am I wrong here?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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06-15-2003, 10:30 PM	#16
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... That teams are drafting the best available player is a very recent occurence and is a luxury afforded to few teams today. As you know, teams have both a wish list, a need list and a ranking list. They will always try to combine them into a single player. I\'m certain the reason the Saints drafted Deuce was not simply because he was the best available, but because they saw how they wanted to change from a ground and pound offense and he would fit better. Plus at the time Ricky was injury prone and they needed depth. He filled a less prominent need, but the weight of the pick was good for need and value. No team drafts a player they have no intention of using or baiting another team with. They had no intention of parking him for 10 years just because he was the best guy on the board.

06-15-2003, 10:32 PM	#17
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... The ownership and GM wanted a full bore offensive change. That\'s just what I said. They didn\'t want him to come in and run the old Buc O. And Gruden brought players in to fit his system and turfed the ones that couldn\'t. You just added to what I said. The offense he ran in Oakland was very similar to what he did in Tampa. [Edited on 16/6/2003 by lumm0x]

06-15-2003, 10:34 PM	#18
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... The truth is we\'re both right. It just depeds on the situation. If a coach goes to a team that is at or near the bottom, they get players to fit the system they want to run. If they go to a team that is talented they adjust their offensive scheme. Wouldn\'t you agree? LummOx, You can\'t be serious about Tampa running the same offense as Oakland. It was nowhere close. Look at some game film man...LOL [Edited on 16/6/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

06-15-2003, 10:36 PM	#19
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... I think both coaches and players try to migrate to what best suits their skills. Agreed. Oakland didn\'t run the same O last year, but in the Gruden era you can definitely see the influences Gruden has brought to the Bucs that mirrored the Raider stuff. Truth be, some of the current Bucs really fit well into Gruden\'s plan already. You have to admit that their offense was more 2001 Raider than it was 2001 Buc wasn\'t it. He didn\'t have all the pieces in place last year and I think you\'ll see it get more Raiderish every year. [Edited on 16/6/2003 by lumm0x]

06-15-2003, 10:47 PM	#20
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Just to beat the Brooks debate to death... No, I don\'t agree. He pouded Alstot and thew short passes, pretty much like Tampa did the year before. Oakland threw the ball all over the field. He tried to do some things simular to what Okland did, but in the end he had to adjust his system to the players he had.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209