Interesting data

FrenzyFan · 10-22-2007, 08:41 AM

I've been looking the post after post about how the pass protection of our O-line is so bad. I note some interesting things though:

Notable QBs who have been sacked more times than Brees ( 4 ):
Vince Young ( 5 ), Eli Manning ( 7 ), Tom Brady ( 7 ), Jay Cutler ( 8 ), Phillip Rivers ( 8 ), Carson Palmer ( 10 ), Tony Romo ( 11 ), Ben Roethlisberger ( 15 ), Donavan McNabb ( 23 ), John Kitna ( 28 ).

The only one on that list who has a worse rating than Brees is Vince Young. The QB rating figures don't exist in a vacuum, there are dropped passes, bad route running, etc. But as a pure measure of offensive line protection, it seems that more sacks equals more hurries and more hits. You can only blame the O-line for our lack of offensive performance for so long before you have to start looking in other places to find the source of our problems.

Edited because it turned a lot of my data into smiley faces.

WillMacKenzie · 10-22-2007, 11:31 AM

THANK you for finding this, as I've said it's been Brees that is off - not the o-line. He's standing back there for like 5-10 seconds and finding nothing. You don't think the o-line would get tired from pass-blocking all day long? It's all we ever do is pass. I'm hoping to see more balance in the future.

ScottyRo · 10-22-2007, 11:46 AM

You can post stats all you want, but I actually watched the games to know that the O-Line has been sucking. I posted in another thread that said they have improved, but it is still not great work.

I'm not saying Brees doesn't have any responsibility or the WR's or anyone else on the offense, but the first three games were lost primarily because of the O-Line. Sacks don't mean crap if your QB is throwing the ball away in time or throwing INT's because of the pressure. Brees has 10 or 11 INT's? Credit 6 or 7 of those to the O-Line.

DeadmaN · 10-22-2007, 11:59 AM

To Be Sacked or Not To Be Sacked
That is the question…
lol
just kidding

I disagree
First up sacks don't really mean much when it comes to a QB being on target
Yes it can mess up his confidence and break his concentration from time to time but 90% of it about timing
most of the time the QB is counting in his head and will release the ball once he get to that special number, other times he has to read the play to make things happen and lets not forget that some QB's are more slippery then others so you can't assume that just because a QB has or has not been sacked he is going to be off target

the reason the O line got so much blame is because of Brees being rushed not that they gave up sacks
and if a QB is Rushed and his timing get’s off it’s all down hill from there

and ScottyRo said it best with…

You can post stats all you want, but I actually watched the games to know that the O-Line has been sucking.

As have many of us

You can dress it up and spin it around as much as you like but in the end the films show clearly that they were not performing up to par

papz · 10-22-2007, 12:14 PM

You can only blame the O-line for our lack of offensive performance for so long before you have to start looking in other places to find the source of our problems.

Fo shizzle my nizzle.

QBREES9 · 10-22-2007, 12:26 PM

are the wideouts getting open. that might be another question too.

WillMacKenzie · 10-22-2007, 01:00 PM

The last two games Brees has had wayyyy too much time in the pocket to throw. It's like he's been sitting in a star trek force field. There are wide receivers in single coverage and things like that, I'm just wondering if it's a mixture of Brees not having the confidence in his receivers to catch the ball and a mixture of his timing is just off right now.

You can't sit here and tell me it's because of the o-line that Brees threw that interception against the Falcons. He had 5 seconds to find someone and he underthrew it to a falcon. The o-line is much improved, it's time for Brees to improve and make it count for something

FrenzyFan · 10-22-2007, 03:00 PM

As odd as it may seem to some, I am also watching the games (haven't missed a Saints' game in I can't remember how many years). In the first two games, the O-line was an absolute mess of ill-performance. The third game they started to look a little better, and in the last three it appears to me that they've shaped up considerably. While the O-line is showing what every one seems to regard as steady improvement, we still see severely sputtering offense every week. That lends me to seek other reasons for the lack of production.

In essense, I guess what I think I am seeing is that through 12 halves of football, I've only seen the offense I expected show up for one (at Seattle first half). I can give them a pass for the second half of the Seattle game, due to the fact they were playing to hold the lead and even Payton talked about how he thought he called it too conservatively. If the basic assumption that the O-line is improving its performance is true, therefore something else must be responsible for the lack of production in the last three games.

If I had to take a swing at what I think it might be, I'd say that the play-calling has been pretty bad at times. Add to that that Brees has not been accurate in 5 of 6 games (I think he was right on at Seattle), and I believe I have a 'winner'.

I'm nervous about our QB, plain and simple. I partially tore my rotator cuff in highschool. I concede that I did not have NEAR the medical care that Brees had (also didn't have near the amount of damage either, but I digress), but when my arm was "recovered" my throws tended to float. The whole throwing motion just felt "wrong" and I could never get it back. I talked about that prior to last season on this board. All last year, I watched Brees show that he still had "it". I happily chalked it up to better medical procedures since my day and enjoyed the hell out of watching my Saints do things I'd never seen them capable of doing before.

This year, I'm watching Brees' mid-range and deep ball float. I'm watching him seem to lose his "touch" on some throws. Why would that show up in his second year after the injury? I don't have a clue and I sure hope I'm wrong, but I'm watching the games and he's not hitting receivers in stride any more. I'm not sure why that is - but I'm worried.

ScottyRo · 10-22-2007, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie

You can't sit here and tell me it's because of the o-line that Brees threw that interception against the Falcons. He had 5 seconds to find someone and he underthrew it to a falcon. The o-line is much improved, it's time for Brees to improve and make it count for something

Who tried to tell you that? I've been down on the o-line , but I haven't said anything like that. It was a bad throw, bad choice. That doesn't excuse the o-line.

You say they're much improved, but improving much from blocking none to blocking some doesn't really help my feelings about them.

WillMacKenzie · 10-22-2007, 04:38 PM

I'm just trying to get you to deduce from your own reasoning that the last 3 games Brees has had plenty of time to throw the ball - yet save for the first half of the Seattle game, he's looked like Danny Weurful.

I think it's a timing and confidence issue between he and his receivers. Because look at the preseason when they got the ball rolling. They were really a sight to behold.

nothin on you scottyro, nothin against you, I just think o-line problems are exaggerated cause we can't seem to convert on 3rd downs

10-22-2007, 08:41 AM	#1
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Interesting data I've been looking the post after post about how the pass protection of our O-line is so bad. I note some interesting things though: Notable QBs who have been sacked more times than Brees ( 4 ): Vince Young ( 5 ), Eli Manning ( 7 ), Tom Brady ( 7 ), Jay Cutler ( 8 ), Phillip Rivers ( 8 ), Carson Palmer ( 10 ), Tony Romo ( 11 ), Ben Roethlisberger ( 15 ), Donavan McNabb ( 23 ), John Kitna ( 28 ). The only one on that list who has a worse rating than Brees is Vince Young. The QB rating figures don't exist in a vacuum, there are dropped passes, bad route running, etc. But as a pure measure of offensive line protection, it seems that more sacks equals more hurries and more hits. You can only blame the O-line for our lack of offensive performance for so long before you have to start looking in other places to find the source of our problems. Edited because it turned a lot of my data into smiley faces.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

10-22-2007, 11:31 AM	#2
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: Interesting data THANK you for finding this, as I've said it's been Brees that is off - not the o-line. He's standing back there for like 5-10 seconds and finding nothing. You don't think the o-line would get tired from pass-blocking all day long? It's all we ever do is pass. I'm hoping to see more balance in the future.

10-22-2007, 11:46 AM	#3
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Re: Interesting data You can post stats all you want, but I actually watched the games to know that the O-Line has been sucking. I posted in another thread that said they have improved, but it is still not great work. I'm not saying Brees doesn't have any responsibility or the WR's or anyone else on the offense, but the first three games were lost primarily because of the O-Line. Sacks don't mean crap if your QB is throwing the ball away in time or throwing INT's because of the pressure. Brees has 10 or 11 INT's? Credit 6 or 7 of those to the O-Line.

10-22-2007, 11:59 AM	#4
DeadmaN Saints Junky Join Date: May 2007 Location: Metairie Originally now a Houston transplant Posts: 672	Re: Interesting data To Be Sacked or Not To Be Sacked That is the question… lol just kidding I disagree First up sacks don't really mean much when it comes to a QB being on target Yes it can mess up his confidence and break his concentration from time to time but 90% of it about timing most of the time the QB is counting in his head and will release the ball once he get to that special number, other times he has to read the play to make things happen and lets not forget that some QB's are more slippery then others so you can't assume that just because a QB has or has not been sacked he is going to be off target the reason the O line got so much blame is because of Brees being rushed not that they gave up sacks and if a QB is Rushed and his timing get’s off it’s all down hill from there and ScottyRo said it best with… You can post stats all you want, but I actually watched the games to know that the O-Line has been sucking. As have many of us You can dress it up and spin it around as much as you like but in the end the films show clearly that they were not performing up to par
	http://blackandgold.com/members/dead...1t-saints3.gif Last edited by DeadmaN; 10-22-2007 at 12:02 PM..

10-22-2007, 12:14 PM	#5
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,754	Re: Interesting data You can only blame the O-line for our lack of offensive performance for so long before you have to start looking in other places to find the source of our problems. Fo shizzle my nizzle.

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10-22-2007, 12:26 PM	#6
QBREES9 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Haven Ct Posts: 23,985	Re: Interesting data are the wideouts getting open. that might be another question too.

10-22-2007, 01:00 PM	#7
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: Interesting data The last two games Brees has had wayyyy too much time in the pocket to throw. It's like he's been sitting in a star trek force field. There are wide receivers in single coverage and things like that, I'm just wondering if it's a mixture of Brees not having the confidence in his receivers to catch the ball and a mixture of his timing is just off right now. You can't sit here and tell me it's because of the o-line that Brees threw that interception against the Falcons. He had 5 seconds to find someone and he underthrew it to a falcon. The o-line is much improved, it's time for Brees to improve and make it count for something

10-22-2007, 03:00 PM	#8
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Interesting data As odd as it may seem to some, I am also watching the games (haven't missed a Saints' game in I can't remember how many years). In the first two games, the O-line was an absolute mess of ill-performance. The third game they started to look a little better, and in the last three it appears to me that they've shaped up considerably. While the O-line is showing what every one seems to regard as steady improvement, we still see severely sputtering offense every week. That lends me to seek other reasons for the lack of production. In essense, I guess what I think I am seeing is that through 12 halves of football, I've only seen the offense I expected show up for one (at Seattle first half). I can give them a pass for the second half of the Seattle game, due to the fact they were playing to hold the lead and even Payton talked about how he thought he called it too conservatively. If the basic assumption that the O-line is improving its performance is true, therefore something else must be responsible for the lack of production in the last three games. If I had to take a swing at what I think it might be, I'd say that the play-calling has been pretty bad at times. Add to that that Brees has not been accurate in 5 of 6 games (I think he was right on at Seattle), and I believe I have a 'winner'. I'm nervous about our QB, plain and simple. I partially tore my rotator cuff in highschool. I concede that I did not have NEAR the medical care that Brees had (also didn't have near the amount of damage either, but I digress), but when my arm was "recovered" my throws tended to float. The whole throwing motion just felt "wrong" and I could never get it back. I talked about that prior to last season on this board. All last year, I watched Brees show that he still had "it". I happily chalked it up to better medical procedures since my day and enjoyed the hell out of watching my Saints do things I'd never seen them capable of doing before. This year, I'm watching Brees' mid-range and deep ball float. I'm watching him seem to lose his "touch" on some throws. Why would that show up in his second year after the injury? I don't have a clue and I sure hope I'm wrong, but I'm watching the games and he's not hitting receivers in stride any more. I'm not sure why that is - but I'm worried.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

10-22-2007, 04:28 PM	#9
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Re: Interesting data Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie You can't sit here and tell me it's because of the o-line that Brees threw that interception against the Falcons. He had 5 seconds to find someone and he underthrew it to a falcon. The o-line is much improved, it's time for Brees to improve and make it count for something Who tried to tell you that? I've been down on the o-line , but I haven't said anything like that. It was a bad throw, bad choice. That doesn't excuse the o-line. You say they're much improved, but improving much from blocking none to blocking some doesn't really help my feelings about them.

10-22-2007, 04:38 PM	#10
WillMacKenzie 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,627	Re: Interesting data I'm just trying to get you to deduce from your own reasoning that the last 3 games Brees has had plenty of time to throw the ball - yet save for the first half of the Seattle game, he's looked like Danny Weurful. I think it's a timing and confidence issue between he and his receivers. Because look at the preseason when they got the ball rolling. They were really a sight to behold. nothin on you scottyro, nothin against you, I just think o-line problems are exaggerated cause we can't seem to convert on 3rd downs