DE evaluation
 

After watching the Giants get after the Pats on Sunday.
Anyone else think our DE's are overweight and out of shape?
From Strahan to Tuck...
The G-men looked very athletic...
I don't see that in Grant or Smith
The only guy I thought looked fit was Cooper.

Am I wrong?

Re: DE evaluation
 

In all earnestness, I have to agree with someone else that posted earlier, in the fact that this draft, has got to be defense all the way through, and I mean every freakin' pick. Forget BPA, and think BDPA. We have a first round receiver from last draft, that I don't think played one game this season. Duece will be back from injury, with something to prove, which in turn will turn up yards for Bush, once he's back to bruising up the middle. Just make sure we lock up Colston, and there you go.

I do have to say, that a solid DT, or MLB, would be my first round pick, if I were at the helm, but I am not. Oh well, I will light a candle then.

Re: DE evaluation
 

saintpaul25.....are you serious about taking a DT or LB in the first round?? please tell me how that would be better than taking a CB....jason david needs to quit ..and i think a fan will kill him within the next 2 weeks so therefore we need to draft a CB....haha :) ...but...if we get Samuel or Trufant we should go after Keith Rivers and give some athleticism to our old slow white linebackers.....

Re: DE evaluation
 

I am torn at LB. A stud Vs. Brains. I like Both.
Conners will be a solid LB for years to come and I really like the brain part of his game. At MLB he would be making all the calls.
Rivers is the stud. Abit on the small side but talk about speed and skills. He would be an upgrade to WLB as soon as he put the uniform on. He could develope into a good MLB with a couple of pounds added. Every time he speaks I am impressed. He is a smart guy. But can that translate to the field? I think so.
Rivers would make the most impact ASAP on the saint and in Smiths game.
Move Shanle into the MLB position and draft a young kid in round 3 at MLB to groom for a year. Say Jonathan Goff, Vanderbilt
Draft say Terrell Thomas, USC in round 2, as a hard hitting CB/S to force the play back inside to the DE. The kid has the speed to blitz and would free up the DE in blitz packages.
See getting the right supporting cast is key to improving the DE play for the saints. Thats what NYG have done. They force the OL to account for everyone. That one second of counting is all a good DE needs to beat his man.
Till we adress the other areas on defense I hate to judge the DL. It was 5 against 4 all year long. We had no other players in blitz packages that scared the other team. They knew that who ever we blitzed, a RB or a simple chip block was enough to give the QB and WR the time they needed to get open. So till the fear is back on the field for the saints judging the front four will be hard.
This is a contract year for Smith. We all know what that means.

Re: DE evaluation
 

I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down my brother....:-D

Re: DE evaluation
 

Yes he is serious, just like most of us on here, want a DT or a LB as the first pick. Here is why picking a DT, LB helps the secondary.....

If the DT punches a hole in the Oline, and a LB rushes through it and drills the freakin' QB three feet into the earth, the QB doesn't have time to throw or throw the ball accurate. Now if he can't throw the ball accurate, even Jason David can make a better attempt at an INT.

The Giants defense executed this to almost perfection against Brady and his Oline. The front 7 is a very big key to a successful defense.

By the way, welcome to B&G Passion!

Re: DE evaluation
 

I would run people down on my way to the podium to pick Sedrick Ellis. If he falls to us that front four is going to be disgustingly good. He and Young can push the interior around while Hollis sucks up space in the middle, and suddenly Smith and Grant are both having double digit sack seasons and people forget all about us even having a secondary. The Giants shut down the most prolific passing attack ever with both their starting corners hurt and one safety who makes Josh Bullocks look good. How? Trench warfare, baby, that's where you win the game.

Re: DE evaluation
 

^^^^

Amen

Re: DE evaluation
 

Regarding the 1st post, Yes, our DE's were out of shape by 20+ pounds all season long.

Coach Payton is a joke.
If he truly ran a "BIG TUNA" type of training camp, Grant and Smith wouldn't have started the season out of shape like that.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Hagan?? Move Shanle into the MLB position??
You are killing me here. We need a cat in the middle. A tough fast cat.

Re: DE evaluation
 

I will STAND by my DT first round idea, because it's the first line of defense. A large, athletic DT, pulls alot of double teams, which frees up the DE spot to attack. Not to mention, a great DT, can also stop the run in this situation as well. A MLB would also provide insurance, just in case something gets through.

More pressure up front, gives more freedom front to back. The secondary will look ten times better, if the QB is running for his life every play.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Ok if we go with Rivers he is going to play WLB I am assuming. So who would play MLB? Thats why I have Shanle moving to MLB for a year, till a replacement is found. Either through draft or FA. The move for Shanle is to a position he has played before. Besides he knows the defense.

What other options do we have on the roster?

We may get lucky and find another rookie to start. But two rookies starting scares me.

Re: DE evaluation
 

You have to commit to building a championship caliber D and that starts with the front 7. Our front 7 can NOT put pressure on anyone. Sure they can stop someone who runs at them but having to go chase someone - FORGET IT. PRESURE, PRESURE, PRESURE. I can't name not one CB on the Giants team but I did see Brady get slammed to the turf over and over by there front 7. We are no where near that.

Re: DE evaluation
 

That was my point exactly, Euph. If the front 7 is doing there job, the CB, and SS really have nothing to worry about.

Our secondary just got hammered this year. One play after another.

Re: DE evaluation
 

WOW! I must be channeling. Your post gets a big:

http://jesusrave.com/images/BuddyJesus.jpg

THUMBS UP!

SFIAH

Re: DE evaluation
 

Captain on defense is needed agreed. I am not sure who that player is right now. They are hard to find.

Re: DE evaluation
 

But that player needs to be found. Signing Brees two years ago ignited the offense. Look at the difference in the Colts defense with/without Sanders.

Another reason I think the Saints needs to sign a stud (hopefully 2) is then there's no doubt about them getting on the field. Last year the team signed a host of mid-tier defensive free agents (Simmons, KK) that had limited exposure on the field even though most would agree they were better players than the starters who played ahead of them.

You sign a top tier guy and he's going to play. And as a top teir guy hopefully he will mask some of the continuing weaknesses in the coaching and scheme that unfortunately are not going away any time soon.

I want to see a defense flooded with talent. Enough talent to overcome the structural problems that I see from Gibbs.

SFIAH

Re: DE evaluation
 

Euph,

We are definitely on the same page. I don't think the entire front 7 can be overhauled. Do you think we can build a workable pressure defense around the 3-4 players that we know we are going to have to keep in the front 7: Grant, Smith, Fujita, and most likely Thomas? If we get the stud DT (say Ellis) and sign the impact MLB (Briggs for example), could that be enough of an upgrade to at least start moving in the right direction?

I certainly hope so.

SFIAH

Re: DE evaluation
 

sappersaint....thanks....but anyways....i know how football works and i know how a D line changes the whole defense....but you are trying to say lets take a DT for our first pick and it will suddenly change the fact that jason david doesn't suck? and anyways...if we do...Kentwan Butler wont make half the impact your talking about for atleast 2 years...and dont say sedrick ellis because i doubt he will drop to 10 and if he does and we do get him i dont think he will run over NFL centers each down...I understand how having a good D line can get to the qb before he can throw to the receiver....but you are talking about the giants line with osi, michael, and jason tuck....3 speed rushers....and our line doesnt even compare with that and with the addition of Dorsey or Ellis it wont make some huge impact within the first 2 years and suddenly make our absolutely horrible secondary better.... believe me, Mike Jenkins or Leodis Mckelvin on the field with Bryan Young would do a much better job than Jason David and Sedrick Ellis..... think of what you are saying...so lets say... we had Ellis and he is blocked by a good center all day long, allowing the qb to have ample time in the pocket...Jason David is still 1 on 1 with someone to get his ass burnt or just by taking himself out the play because he is horrible at man coverage and doesnt know what the hell he is doing...what im trying to say is....with a top 10 CB drafted...we will actually have a chance for a CB to make a play on the ball instead of watching David trail receivers....and guys...he really is that bad....no doubt in my mind and all of you have to agree with me that a Mike Jenkins or Mckelvin will make a much bigger impact on the defense....have you ever thought about what our biggest weakness is on defense? cornerback.... so we need to address the problem and stop playing around it...once that is fixed we can worry about other weak spots...and i promise you that you have no clue just how much better our defense will be when we get 1 playmaking CB....the points allowed on us will be cut in half....just think of all the touchdowns David gives up on horrible coverage....and then cut those down to 1/2 and add a couple bats and pics in that....our team wont be one dimensional anymore...

Re: DE evaluation
 

ever thought about maybe if we had shutdown CBs that our line would have much more time to get to the qb....?? when a qb drops back he only needs 2 seconds to throw on Davids side because he is usually 15 feet away from the receiver....if their receivers were covered our guys like smith and grant could actually get 12+ sacks a year. instead of grants 2.5 this year....and you all know he is much better than 2.5 sacks a year...

Re: DE evaluation
 

Champ Bailey and Dre Bly... need I elaborate? Worry about the front 7 first.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Bingo! Same with the Giants.

SFIAH

Re: DE evaluation
 

ummm good point? but our d line is much better than the broncos...and they flat out suck....they still had better defense against the pass than us so whats your point?

Re: DE evaluation
 

The point is that you can have all the stud corners you want and it wouldn't mean squat unless you solidify your front 7. I guess I should have made myself more clear.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Passion,

Didn't intend it to make it sound like I was being a smart :moon: , I just don't see a CB making as big of an impact as a DT or LB. LB is my first choice. There is always a chance Ellis or Dorsey could fall in our lap. Stranger thing have happened.:nuts:

Don't mistake me not jumping on JD as a sign of me "favoring" him. I am a very BIG HATER of Mare and Jason David. I have been on David's case since the Indy game. So yes, I agree with you that our CB's suck big time and we need some serious help in that position. I just think we can get that in the second and third round. I am no MM fan either. I agree with Hagan, we he said the Saints is a old timers home for defensive players.

Re: DE evaluation
 

its kool sapper..yea well listen....honestly...i want keith rivers for our 1st round....but only if we get Samuel or Trufant...but i would love to get Sedrick Ellis...in my opinion and many other peoples....Sedrick Ellis is better than Dorsey...Dorsey just has all the hype....Ellis is 5 times more athletic and he makes plays....he is a better natural pass rusher than dorsey....but look...i honestly think if we can get a good corner in FA we cant go wrong with drafting a DT or LB....but i love Rivers athleticism...he is going to be a man in the NFL when he bulks up a bit...im not impressed too much with Dan Connor though....i mean he is good but no comparison with Rivers....After seeing Dan Connor get launched on his back by Matt Forte I was not impressed....and he does lack speed..... i just want this to happen for the saints... an upgrade to Jason David....and any other defensive players chosen in the draft will make me happy.....im a true saints fan and have been a saints fan all my life and am just tired of putting up with mediocre defenses when we have such a talented offense...you think someone would make a change by now....if Jason David is starting next year im going to become a hornets fan...lol

Re: DE evaluation
 

Trust me when I say passion, that it used to be a total reverse, when Mora Senior was at the helm. All defense, and mediocre offense, and I would put the front seven from that time, up against any high powered offense. I agree that CB needs to be addressed, but you brought up an interesting point about the DTs impact in the first season. How much of an impact can a rookie CB make against star receivers, in their first year?

All I'm saying is, that we should take our gambles on CBs in FA, or in the later rounds of the draft. Shore up the front seven in the first three rounds, unless they get an impact DT, or LB in FA. I just don't share alot of people's optimism, with the abilities of our front four. What was our turnover differentium this past season? It wasn't very good, if I remember correctly, and turnovers start with the line. Qb's make more mistakes when they are running for their life. Tom Brady proved that in the superbowl, and he is what I would call an "elite" quarterback.

Re: DE evaluation
 

umm..ok.. how many rookie cornerbacks did good this year? quite a bit... how many DTs racked up on sacks?? yea thats what i thought... lets see..Aron Ross ..rookie CB starter on giants.... leon hall had like 5 picks... a DT cant just pick up the center and get to the qb every play....you realize a cornerback can get beat every play.... which is way more critical if a cornerback gets beat than if a DT gets beat.... if a DT gets owned by a center...nothing happens if its a pass except more time for qb...if a CB gets burned it can allow big plays to happen....which is why it is more critical for us to focus on a CB first.... because ours suck ass...and you act like glenn dorsey is a freaking god or something are u kidding me...hes so overrated....ever taken a look at ellis? hes better...but wont be pushing centers around like you think... ok main point....who would make a bigger impact next season.... sedrick ellis with jason david. or Mike Jenkins with Bryant young?>?? ok we all know the answer therefore you are wrong...and you agree with me too...

Re: DE evaluation
 

Tackle to Tackle is where football games are won . The closer to the ball you play the more important you are , Always take the good big man because GOD did'nt make that many of them . Denver has a pretty damn good pair of starting Cbs (Bailey and Bly) they finished 28th in scoring Def. I would rather invest in front seven talent than overpay a CB FA. The NFL is moving to more wide open passing game and rule changes have made it much harder for CBs to have great impact on the game . I am not saying that you do'nt need good CBs . What I am saying is that a fierce pass rush is more effective at stopping today's NFL offenses than a Great CB

Re: DE evaluation
 

ok but you dont understand...we wouldnt be having the conversation if Jason David sucked so bad....if we had another mike mckenzie no one would care about getting a CB.....you dont understand how ****ty David is...i dont care what you say about the front 7....sedrick ellis wont make jason david not get burnt every play..ok....our line is not as bad at denvers either as i already said....so your saying will smith and charles grant suck>? ok good job you dont know anything

Re: DE evaluation
 

Well put triman.

Re: DE evaluation
 

I'm sure everyone knows how bad Jason David is... and no one has said anything about Will Smith or Charles Grant being bad. All you're doing is shoving words into people's mouth and arguing with yourself.

Re: DE evaluation
 

yall seriously know nothing about football.... lets see... after the past 2 years Fred Thomas and Jason David sucked... so yalls conclusion to fixing that is by drafting a DT???? wow...yall must not watch each game...im at the 50 yard line every game and my dad was the offensive coordinator on the chargers from 86-91....i know what the hell im talking about

Re: DE evaluation
 

Re: DE evaluation
 

The Chargers offense SUCKED from 86-91;)

Re: DE evaluation
 

So then the answer is to sign a Free Agent CB or to draft a corner with the no# 10 pick. I think we all know we need corners ( Florence or Trufant )

I hope Mike is doing well, and unless Jason David in Corner Back school re learning his job we need corners. Oh yeah and two LB.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Look if you have a lesson to provide us about defense go for it. But for God's sake try to be educated about it. This is a forum were we talk out the issue. So to belittle a person does you no good. It only makes people have little faith in your knowledge. I have been reading your posts and have a few words of advice for you.
Stop looking for a fight.
We go at it all the time but try to do as friends not like we are at a bar. There is no stepping outside to punch your point home. OK
Paz is right. Time could be brief. This is a family site. We have men, woman and younger fans here. Please keep that in mind.
Look your dad was a OC and thats all great but it does us no good if you can not explain the ideas completely and in detail. I am sure your Dad tried to teach you this also. He was a teacher himself. So share your insight and let us read them. We are here to learn a thing or two about football. Your insights from your Dad could prove to be a great addition. But you need to be little more tact-full in your approach. In your face does not work.
Besides there are some people you can never change. They need to see your statements come true on the field. Then you can point out you told them so. That seems to work best with them.
i hope you read this post in the right manor. I welcome you and your insights and will be looking for them. But this is a family site and that above all else that will be protected. Educate me. Do not offend me. I will never give you respect that way. I am a bonehead at times but I am not stupid. Neither are the others that post here.

Re: DE evaluation
 

Wit hthe exception of Champ Bailey, every corner back in the Pro Bowl has either a D-Lineman or Pass rushing OLB (3-4) style get selected to the

Re: DE evaluation
 

With the exception of Champ Bailey, every corner back in the Pro Bowl has either a D-Lineman or Pass rushing OLB (3-4) style get selected to the Pro Bowl also...Coincidence? I think not