saints to pick up some cfl players?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-19-2008, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by papz

Well I never said we've had trouble evaluating second tier talent.

Um... That would be me.

But even if we did, does that mean we should stop trying?

Ummm... Yes. We should stop trying.

It's not like the guys we're considering bringing are over the age of 30 and injury prone. These guys are most likely just camp bodies... just like undrafted free agents we're going to sign after the draft. It's not like we're looking for starters or anything over there. Let them come in and compete... there's absolutely NOTHING to lose here.

I see two problems with that argument. The first is that the organization is wasting time evaluating such talent instead of getting the top tier talent that we actually need. The second problem is more pervasive. That is the thinking in the organization that they can succeed with "diamonds in the rough" which causes them to not try to go after top tier guys.

The Saints need top tier guys because way too often plays get screwed up due to coaching and scheme. You need top tier talent to overcome those obstacles.

I know that's sad to say, but I think it's true. The offense would not be anywhere near where it is now if Payton had started off with a rookie QB. Brees makes that offense go. Top tier talent.

We need that on the defensive side of the ball.

So don't waste time on CFLers, or drafting in the backwoods, or looking at mid tier free agents. Get the super tackles, LBs, and CBs in the league to make the defense better now. Then back them up by drafting the best atheletes we can find.

That's the only way to get our problems on defense fixed.

SFIAH

papz · 02-19-2008, 10:15 AM

Wow... that makes no sense. I guess after the draft, we shouldn't go sign any free agents. With your train of thought, there would have never been a Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Willie Parker, Pierre Thomas, Marques Colston, Terelle Davis, Jeff Garcia and so on so forth. There's something called depth... not just the starters on offense and defense.

The way you've been thinking ever since the season ended, we'd be wasting our time doing anything except looking at the big name free agent defensive players and the top defensive talent in the draft. I bet if I'd suggest us trade our 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7th round pick to get another late second rounder you'd be all for it. I mean why waste our time scouting for diamond in the roughs when we need top tier talent. Why have a 7 round draft?

Common sense tells us we need to bring in as many players as we can to evaluate in order to fill a 53 man roster. There are players that slip through the cracks when evaluated... and a successful and smart organization are the ones that can find them.

Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposely 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college.

You are making a big deal out of absolutely nothing... the offseason really must be that boring.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-19-2008, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Wow... that makes no sense. I guess after the draft, we shouldn't go sign any free agents. With your train of thought, there would have never been a Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Willie Parker, Pierre Thomas, Marques Colston, Terelle Davis, Jeff Garcia and so on so forth.

The context of the players you've listed are critical. Many of them came into organizations that were well established and had both scouting and coaching staffs to bring out the best in that talent.

I'm pointing out that the Saints at this point in time does not have the organization to support this type of player. Colston and Evans were both flukes. That's a part of the problem that I alluded to in my original post.

There's something called depth... not just the starters on offense and defense.

You cannot deal with depth until you have your starters in place. Free agency and the draft needs to be about getting players that can make an immediate impact.

The way you've been thinking ever since the season ended, we'd be wasting our time doing anything except looking at the big name free agent defensive players and the top defensive talent in the draft. I bet if I'd suggest us trade our 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7th round pick to get another late second rounder you'd be all for it.

Not the third rounder. I'd happily package the others for a solid defensive starter in a trade.

Other than Colston, what late round or undrafted free agent has played consistently for the Saints in the last two years?

I mean why waste our time scouting for diamond in the roughs when we need top tier talent. Why have a 7 round draft?

I'm glad that you agree!

Common sense tells us we need to bring in as many players as we can to evaluate in order to fill a 53 man roster. There are players that slip through the cracks when evaluated... and a successful and smart organization are the ones that can find them.

And I'm saying that at this time the Saints organization has not proved that they qualify.

Look at what happened to the crop of mid tier free agents and draft picks from last year. The draft class was virtually redshirted in its entirety. Free agents such as KK and Simmons did not get significant playing time though they played better than the starters in front of them.

Jason David. 'nuff said.

With top tier guys there's no doubt about playing time, leadership, or impact. They will succeed in spite of obstacles in scheme and coaching.

Actually I think Payton gets the diamond in the rough on the offensive side of the ball. However, the defense hasn't proven itself enough to be dealing in flights of fancy.

Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposely 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college.

And they went to organizations that have made them into top tier guys. Now it's time for the Saints to reap the benefits of that training.

You are making a big deal out of absolutely nothing... the offseason really must be that boring.

It's not boring at all. The Saints organization needs to look in the mirror and understand who they are. They are not going to make progress being a great offense and a sub par defense. While I understand that defense can in fact be built with great talent evaluation, coaching and scheme, the Saints have not proved that as their strength over the last two years. The scheme isn't going to change. Coaching has only had minimal turnover. Talent eval has been weak.

The only way to combat all of these is superior talent. Talent that everyone in the league covets. That gives an objective measure of the talent level.

The Colts didn't want Jason David. No one else did either. That should tell you something.

SFIAH

papz · 02-19-2008, 04:07 PM

I've read all that and came away with this...

- When the Saints drafted Colston and Evans, they got lucky. The Saints shouldn't receive any credit for developing both into ProBowl type talents.

- We should not address depth until we sign enough top tier starters.

- The draft shouldn't consist of 7 rounds.

- Because we not did not do a good job evaluating talent last year, we're failures and should stop trying. How would you characterize the year before last? We went from being geniuses to becoming complete idiots... go figure... and it's the same staff.

Quote:
Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposedly 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college.

And they went to organizations that have made them into top tier guys. Now it's time for the Saints to reap the benefits of that training.

And we can't do the same? I'm beating the dead horse but once again... Evans and Colston. You want to Saints to "reap the benefits of that training" yet you're opposed to bring in new blood to develop. All 7 picks from the Giants roster contributed to helping them win a SuperBowl. Not all were top tier talent.

It's not boring at all.

You could have fooled me. I mean a insignificant move such as signing a CFL player certainly generated a length discussion.

The Saints organization needs to look in the mirror and understand who they are. They are not going to make progress being a great offense and a sub par defense.

I'm pretty sure they understand that after last year's debacle.

While I understand that defense can in fact be built with great talent evaluation, coaching and scheme, the Saints have not proved that as their strength over the last two years. The scheme isn't going to change. Coaching has only had minimal turnover. Talent eval has been weak.

Talent evaluation as far as signing free agents have been weak... not drafting. The year before last we had a good class. Last year's class didn't get to see the field so we don't know what we have. I haven't dismissed them yet... and I know you haven't as you believe Meachem might be able to handle a starting gig.

The only way to combat all of these is superior talent. Talent that everyone in the league covets. That gives an objective measure of the talent level.

We should just forfeit our 4th -7th rounders. What's the point right? We're pitiful in evaluating talent and developing players... 2nd tier players should even be considered. Screw looking for players that's slipped through the cracks... let other teams sift through all that dead weight and let them reap the rewards of another Randall Gay etc.

The Colts didn't want Jason David. No one else did either. That should tell you something.

How do you know? Were we the only ones to make him a contract offer? Did he visit any other teams before he signed with us? Was it because the Colts didn't want David or was it because they couldn't afford him?

You go on and bury you head in the sand... we're not the Yankees and the key to a successful franchise is to find and develop young talent. You can't just go out there and buy a winning team. Because we had one bad year, suddenly everyone is incompetent. Wow.

saintsfan1976 · 02-19-2008, 04:19 PM

Okay, you have multi-quoted us to death....

Crusader · 02-19-2008, 05:15 PM

I'm in your corner Papz. The Saints needs to go everywhere to find talent. I don't care if its Zimabwe to find a Cornerback or Serbia to find a DT or Great Britain to find a Kicker.

Sign the CFL guys, evaluate, keep if good enoug else cut. Remember Michael Lewis, he was delivering beer and still good enough to play in the NFL. Joe Horn worked at a furniture factory so what says that a guy in the CFL couldn't make it. Also, sign CJ Bjork from the Packers practise squad for depth in our LB corps. He's a great fit at MLB in the 4-3.

ssmitty · 02-19-2008, 05:20 PM

not to get off the subject, but i questioned the fact a while ago , do the saints have the right personnel to bring in the talent we need.......
i don't know.......
if so, why have'nt they?
i know, i know , i know, sometimes it's a crap shoot......
but does it have to be with us?
unless we have the scouts and the coaches on the same page as to who they want, and the money payers to bring them in as well, it's not gonna happen...
this is the yr all the fans need to see the owner put up the bucks and the right scouts and coaches find the players we need.
we could be there, why are'nt we?

hagan714 · 02-19-2008, 07:24 PM

I am sticking with Bob on this one. The saints are happy with the OT picks from the past two years and will stick with them. This is a smoke screen. At 10 we sit atop the #2 OT in the draft ahead of a group of teams that will be looking for a OT. Chicago is my choice to move up order to get their choice of OT since at 15 they may get the #4 OT. They have two third rounds and one third is the price to move up. So unless the saints are looking for a player to start in short term so the draft choices have another year to get ready and stinch is traded this makes no sense. So I am sticking with Bob on this one.

02-19-2008, 08:10 AM	#11
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play Originally Posted by papz Well I never said we've had trouble evaluating second tier talent. Um... That would be me. But even if we did, does that mean we should stop trying? Ummm... Yes. We should stop trying. It's not like the guys we're considering bringing are over the age of 30 and injury prone. These guys are most likely just camp bodies... just like undrafted free agents we're going to sign after the draft. It's not like we're looking for starters or anything over there. Let them come in and compete... there's absolutely NOTHING to lose here. I see two problems with that argument. The first is that the organization is wasting time evaluating such talent instead of getting the top tier talent that we actually need. The second problem is more pervasive. That is the thinking in the organization that they can succeed with "diamonds in the rough" which causes them to not try to go after top tier guys. The Saints need top tier guys because way too often plays get screwed up due to coaching and scheme. You need top tier talent to overcome those obstacles. I know that's sad to say, but I think it's true. The offense would not be anywhere near where it is now if Payton had started off with a rookie QB. Brees makes that offense go. Top tier talent. We need that on the defensive side of the ball. So don't waste time on CFLers, or drafting in the backwoods, or looking at mid tier free agents. Get the super tackles, LBs, and CBs in the league to make the defense better now. Then back them up by drafting the best atheletes we can find. That's the only way to get our problems on defense fixed. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

02-19-2008, 10:15 AM	#12
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,754	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play Wow... that makes no sense. I guess after the draft, we shouldn't go sign any free agents. With your train of thought, there would have never been a Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Willie Parker, Pierre Thomas, Marques Colston, Terelle Davis, Jeff Garcia and so on so forth. There's something called depth... not just the starters on offense and defense. The way you've been thinking ever since the season ended, we'd be wasting our time doing anything except looking at the big name free agent defensive players and the top defensive talent in the draft. I bet if I'd suggest us trade our 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7th round pick to get another late second rounder you'd be all for it. I mean why waste our time scouting for diamond in the roughs when we need top tier talent. Why have a 7 round draft? Common sense tells us we need to bring in as many players as we can to evaluate in order to fill a 53 man roster. There are players that slip through the cracks when evaluated... and a successful and smart organization are the ones that can find them. Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposely 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college. You are making a big deal out of absolutely nothing... the offseason really must be that boring.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way. Last edited by papz; 02-19-2008 at 10:18 AM..

02-19-2008, 02:26 PM	#13
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play Originally Posted by papz Wow... that makes no sense. I guess after the draft, we shouldn't go sign any free agents. With your train of thought, there would have never been a Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Willie Parker, Pierre Thomas, Marques Colston, Terelle Davis, Jeff Garcia and so on so forth. The context of the players you've listed are critical. Many of them came into organizations that were well established and had both scouting and coaching staffs to bring out the best in that talent. I'm pointing out that the Saints at this point in time does not have the organization to support this type of player. Colston and Evans were both flukes. That's a part of the problem that I alluded to in my original post. There's something called depth... not just the starters on offense and defense. You cannot deal with depth until you have your starters in place. Free agency and the draft needs to be about getting players that can make an immediate impact. The way you've been thinking ever since the season ended, we'd be wasting our time doing anything except looking at the big name free agent defensive players and the top defensive talent in the draft. I bet if I'd suggest us trade our 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7th round pick to get another late second rounder you'd be all for it. Not the third rounder. I'd happily package the others for a solid defensive starter in a trade. Other than Colston, what late round or undrafted free agent has played consistently for the Saints in the last two years? I mean why waste our time scouting for diamond in the roughs when we need top tier talent. Why have a 7 round draft? I'm glad that you agree! Common sense tells us we need to bring in as many players as we can to evaluate in order to fill a 53 man roster. There are players that slip through the cracks when evaluated... and a successful and smart organization are the ones that can find them. And I'm saying that at this time the Saints organization has not proved that they qualify. Look at what happened to the crop of mid tier free agents and draft picks from last year. The draft class was virtually redshirted in its entirety. Free agents such as KK and Simmons did not get significant playing time though they played better than the starters in front of them. Jason David. 'nuff said. With top tier guys there's no doubt about playing time, leadership, or impact. They will succeed in spite of obstacles in scheme and coaching. Actually I think Payton gets the diamond in the rough on the offensive side of the ball. However, the defense hasn't proven itself enough to be dealing in flights of fancy. Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposely 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college. And they went to organizations that have made them into top tier guys. Now it's time for the Saints to reap the benefits of that training. You are making a big deal out of absolutely nothing... the offseason really must be that boring. It's not boring at all. The Saints organization needs to look in the mirror and understand who they are. They are not going to make progress being a great offense and a sub par defense. While I understand that defense can in fact be built with great talent evaluation, coaching and scheme, the Saints have not proved that as their strength over the last two years. The scheme isn't going to change. Coaching has only had minimal turnover. Talent eval has been weak. The only way to combat all of these is superior talent. Talent that everyone in the league covets. That gives an objective measure of the talent level. The Colts didn't want Jason David. No one else did either. That should tell you something. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

02-19-2008, 04:07 PM	#14
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,754	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play I've read all that and came away with this... - When the Saints drafted Colston and Evans, they got lucky. The Saints shouldn't receive any credit for developing both into ProBowl type talents. - We should not address depth until we sign enough top tier starters. - The draft shouldn't consist of 7 rounds. - Because we not did not do a good job evaluating talent last year, we're failures and should stop trying. How would you characterize the year before last? We went from being geniuses to becoming complete idiots... go figure... and it's the same staff. Quote: Just off the top of my head for some of the playoff teams... Ryan Grant, Ahmad Bradshaw, Randall Gay, and Asante Samuels. These guys are supposedly 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier guys coming out of college. And they went to organizations that have made them into top tier guys. Now it's time for the Saints to reap the benefits of that training. And we can't do the same? I'm beating the dead horse but once again... Evans and Colston. You want to Saints to "reap the benefits of that training" yet you're opposed to bring in new blood to develop. All 7 picks from the Giants roster contributed to helping them win a SuperBowl. Not all were top tier talent. It's not boring at all. You could have fooled me. I mean a insignificant move such as signing a CFL player certainly generated a length discussion. The Saints organization needs to look in the mirror and understand who they are. They are not going to make progress being a great offense and a sub par defense. I'm pretty sure they understand that after last year's debacle. While I understand that defense can in fact be built with great talent evaluation, coaching and scheme, the Saints have not proved that as their strength over the last two years. The scheme isn't going to change. Coaching has only had minimal turnover. Talent eval has been weak. Talent evaluation as far as signing free agents have been weak... not drafting. The year before last we had a good class. Last year's class didn't get to see the field so we don't know what we have. I haven't dismissed them yet... and I know you haven't as you believe Meachem might be able to handle a starting gig. The only way to combat all of these is superior talent. Talent that everyone in the league covets. That gives an objective measure of the talent level. We should just forfeit our 4th -7th rounders. What's the point right? We're pitiful in evaluating talent and developing players... 2nd tier players should even be considered. Screw looking for players that's slipped through the cracks... let other teams sift through all that dead weight and let them reap the rewards of another Randall Gay etc. The Colts didn't want Jason David. No one else did either. That should tell you something. How do you know? Were we the only ones to make him a contract offer? Did he visit any other teams before he signed with us? Was it because the Colts didn't want David or was it because they couldn't afford him? You go on and bury you head in the sand... we're not the Yankees and the key to a successful franchise is to find and develop young talent. You can't just go out there and buy a winning team. Because we had one bad year, suddenly everyone is incompetent. Wow.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

02-19-2008, 04:19 PM	#15
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,846 Blog Entries: 3	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play Okay, you have multi-quoted us to death....

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02-19-2008, 05:15 PM	#16
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,025	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play I'm in your corner Papz. The Saints needs to go everywhere to find talent. I don't care if its Zimabwe to find a Cornerback or Serbia to find a DT or Great Britain to find a Kicker. Sign the CFL guys, evaluate, keep if good enoug else cut. Remember Michael Lewis, he was delivering beer and still good enough to play in the NFL. Joe Horn worked at a furniture factory so what says that a guy in the CFL couldn't make it. Also, sign CJ Bjork from the Packers practise squad for depth in our LB corps. He's a great fit at MLB in the 4-3.
	W.T. Sherman is my favorite General. After all he did order Atlanta to be burned to the ground.

02-19-2008, 05:20 PM	#17
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play not to get off the subject, but i questioned the fact a while ago , do the saints have the right personnel to bring in the talent we need....... i don't know....... if so, why have'nt they? i know, i know , i know, sometimes it's a crap shoot...... but does it have to be with us? unless we have the scouts and the coaches on the same page as to who they want, and the money payers to bring them in as well, it's not gonna happen... this is the yr all the fans need to see the owner put up the bucks and the right scouts and coaches find the players we need. we could be there, why are'nt we?
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

02-19-2008, 07:24 PM	#18
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: saints to pick up some cfl play I am sticking with Bob on this one. The saints are happy with the OT picks from the past two years and will stick with them. This is a smoke screen. At 10 we sit atop the #2 OT in the draft ahead of a group of teams that will be looking for a OT. Chicago is my choice to move up order to get their choice of OT since at 15 they may get the #4 OT. They have two third rounds and one third is the price to move up. So unless the saints are looking for a player to start in short term so the draft choices have another year to get ready and stinch is traded this makes no sense. So I am sticking with Bob on this one.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins