Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

ok so they had 74 catches.. but does anyone really think that they are a threat? do you think the DC of our opponents gameplan to stop johnson and miller? does anyone here think they have done anything of real significance on the offensive side of the ball?

i dont..

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Oh stop that crap right there buddy...

I think we learned our lessong about offenes, offense, offense. Doesn't freakin' matter if we score 35 a game if we let them score 40 a game... we still lose.

PAY ATTENTION TO THE PAST SB winners... it wasn't the best offense in NFL history that one it last year was it - NO. It was a get to the QB D, who worked over the Pats. They year before that, pass rush of the Colts.

Everyone is losing their minds now of the Shockey.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

everyone is acting like we havent improved our defense which is far from the truth.. we have improved every single level of defense from the line to LBs to secondary.. adding several quality players at each level and 1 Probowl MLB which will easily improve our defense... and not to mention that we have plenty of depth now at every position except for safety..

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

I can't argue Shockey will be a benefit on any NFL team on the field. In the locker room, question marks. The asking price is to much for a head case. THATS WHY EVEN SEAN hasn't given in to their demands. Give up a 2nd - NO, a first -NO. A fourth and that is it. Its time to move on unless the Giants want to be real about it.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

...and it was done by FA, and using draft picks in the draft! Instead of spending the picks on Shockey.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

And the Saints are a pass first team that needs to strengthen it's run game. A blocking TE gets no love but they are just as important as a receiving TE and I think that the Saints have both in Johnson and Campbell, if Campbell can return from his injury. And Billy Miller seems to do well in a back up role.

74 receptions doesn't necessarily deem them as threats but as players that command attention.

Oh well. I say we all dig our heels in, as we've been doing, and see who can get the other guy to understand where he's coming from and get him to change his mind. I'm skeptical but it may happen.

Get comfortable with Shockey being a a thread topic. This debate will most assuredly continue though out the season with or without Jeremy Shockey as the Saints Tight End.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Every offensive skill player on the field does not have to be a game changing threat.

The very fact that opposing DCs did not account for the tight end is the reason that Miller and Johnson collectively accounted for more catches (74), yards (706), TDs (4), and a decent YPC (9.5) than Shockey (57,609,3,10.5) last year.

With that type of production I'd ignore Shockey too.

But as I keep saying over and over and over again it's not just about talent. It's about fit. Johnson and Miller were both happy enough with the situation with the Saints that they were willing to sign up for another tour. Both were free agents. Both could have gone anywhere. I know they will work hard, make themselves available to Brees, and fit into this offense.

Shockey will not be happy. I don't think it's in his makeup. He has a diva superstar attitude. He wants to be the center of attention. He's a loudmouth that has thrown his own coach under the bus. He's unhappy after a season where his team has won the ultimate prize. That's a guy that just waiting up upset the apple cart It has been said that he has a fiery attitude. The problem is that a fiery attitude sometimes blows up in your face. Kyle Turley wasn't so long ago for most of you to remember his famous meltdowns.

I don't want that to be the Saints apple cart. Think about it. Reggie Bush is the superstar of this team. I think we all know that he really doesn't deserve it at this point. It doesn't bother guys like Brees, Colston, and Deuce who really deserve superstar accolades for this team. You think Shockey will be happy when the reporters flock over to Bush's locker to ask him about whatever? Or how about the first time Payton feels the need to get into Shockey's face. You think he'll respond well?

The Saints need talented guys that can be trusted to do what's best for the team.

I don't trust Shockey. This is a guy that right now that has thrown his own organization under the bus with this debacle.

Why would I want him in our organization?

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Just a few things here...

1. Would you really "ignore" Shockey on D? I welcome him then.
2. It is about "fit". And didn't you read the title of this post??? You think our head coach knows a little more (than us) about just how well Shockey will fit in New Orleans??
3. You're making huge assumptions about Shockey's attitude/makeup and how he will act when reporters "flock to Bush's locker"... Were you actually IN the locker room last season? Or do you just believe everything you read?
4. I haven't heard Shockey throw anyone under the bus, all i've heard is that he wants to play for another team that he can be a bigger part of.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

its impossible for you to win this argument.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

This is true, he's better than any TE we currently have on the team. And just like any other player he wants to be involved. The Giants offense is different from the Saints offense, hell I don't think Antonio Gates would like the Giants offense. I still think the Giants would have went to the Super Bowl with Shockey anyway because TE's in there offense has little production - Shockey can produce.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

How can you even say that, like his team winning the SB has ANYTHING to do with the Saints need him to win the SB.

You see, we could have been the #1 Offense last year, but just because we are the BEST does not mean that we can't get BETTER. Ford used to have that attitude, now they are trying to build cars the way Toyota does, so they can catch up in sales. When you hit #1 and stop trying to get even better, you get passed up.

I (obviously) can't say this enough, Shockey makes us BETTER. Not because Shockey is the greatest TE ever, but because he changes how defenses play against us, and he changes how opposing coaches plan for us. Shockey helps us the MOST by allowing us to choose the ground in the battle. He forces the opposing coaches make the plan that they HAVE to, not the plan that they WANT to.

Not too many people seem to realize the significance of this. Shockey starts helping us win before the game is even played.

As far as being a "Team Cancer", everyone gripes about their jobs. Seriously, as if you have never griped about your idiot employers. I don't CARE how much he makes, if I was surrounded by idiots I would say it out loud. He is not a thug or a criminal, he has no known substance abuse problems, he will only be a problem to a dysfunctional team.

Shockey makes us better. Better is good. There is no getting around this point. You don't have to like it, but you need to accept it.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

SAINTS STILL WANT SHOCKEY
Posted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2008, 4:28 p.m.
Though the New Orleans Saints weren’t able to swing a trade prior to or during the 2008 draft for Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey, the Saints reportedly remain interested.

Writes Jimmy Smith of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, “Coach Sean Payton believes Shockey is a perfect fit for the Saints’ offense, and he still desperately wants the player to be wearing a black-and-gold uniform this season.”

But while a trade could still happen, the price tag would surely be higher in 2009 picks than it would have been with 2008 selections. Absent a significant offer of picks from next year’s draft, the Giants could just keep Shockey at a relatively reasonable $1.9 million base salary for the coming season, and then trade him in March or April.

The other problem is that trading Shockey could expose the Giants to a depth issue, if Kevin Boss were to break a leg or tear a tendon or rupture a spleen or puncture his scrotum. And that’s why the Saints might ultimately have to ship a tight end from their own roster to New York in order to seal the deal, especially since the Giants didn’t draft any tight

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Everyone keeps talking about the guy like he's the next coming of Ozzie Newsome or Shannon Sharpe.

His best year was his rookie year. And that was a long time ago.
Maybe. But our head coach is still relatively new to the job. Also he really hasn't had to deal with any true player adversity.

I might have a different opinion if he had gone through some Chad Johnson/T.O. type drama before.

You know that you are talking about a guy that went on record after a game and said that his coach can't coach? I believe I threw in that link in a previous post.

Could you imagine the Shockey lockerroom press conference after losing the Tampa game on a truely stupid play last year?

And you want that possibility in our locker room?

The very fact that he wants off the SuperBowl champions because he wants to be a bigger part of another team speaks volumes. More than I can ever say.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Why? They produced better than Shockey last year. Shockey is clearly better. So they must have been ignored.

I say let's keep the undercover duo and let them be ignored for another season. Maybe they can get 100 catches.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait.
I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple:

#4 offense
#26 defense

So where do you need to get better?

Now the Saints gets props for doing exactly that. They spent the offseason improving the defense. Even the choice of the kicker in the 6th round was actually a defensive move (long kickoffs).

But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy.

The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time.

I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that.

Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves.

The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true:

One bad apple spoils the bunch.
There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one:

1) Talent. A positive there.
2) Fit. Big negative there.
3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him.

Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down.

Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction.

Pacman Jones.

Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet:

1) talent. I think that's been shown.
2) Fit. Triple negative here.
3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract.

If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing.

The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff.

One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year.

So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag.

And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Bottom Line: Shockey would make us better on the field.

All the other crap has been blown out of proportion.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Bottom line: Shockey making us better on the field hasn't been proven. Our TE pair from last year outplayed him.

Bottom line: He's a diva malcontent that thinks of himself first.

This really summarizes the two sides of this thread. It can be closed now.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Shockey want to win (.)

All great players want the ball at crunch time (.)

Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.)

Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.)

Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour)

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

I may be crazy....but I like hearing that a "HighProfile" player WANTS to play for the Saints.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

The Saints have a ton of offensive players. Are you saying that they don't want to win?


No doubt. The question is how do they handle it when they don't get it a crunch time? I know how Brees, Reggie, Deuce, Colston, and yes Johnson and Miller will handle that. I've also seen how Shockey handles it too. Not the same reaction.


Eli is a SB champion and MVP. Oh as a reminder, he accomplished that without Shockey.

Rehash, rehash. You're not really telling me anything that I don't already know. You still haven't addressed what I've pointed out in numerous previous posts to this thread: If Shockey creates such havoc, then why don't his numbers reflect it?


Apples and gorillas. That call was Payton wanting to make a splash. It was a mistake. He would have called that play if Shockey were on the field or not.

But it's a lesson learned. Next time he'll run the ball into the line just like he's supposed to.

Why don't ya'll just admit that you want Shockey because you like the idea, not because of any real substative evidence. All the evidence I need I have from the NYG:

1. Dude threw his coach under the bus.
2. The team won the SB without him.
3. He wants to get out because he wasn't the star in the playoff run.
4. The NYG want a king's (or fool's) ransom for him.

That's all I need to see. Pass.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question.

On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat.

The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?

And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)?

Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty.

Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument.

Pass

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?


Because Billy and Eric are not household names. We are hearing a name we all know and feel that he is a better player than who we have now. I can't say is or isn't right now, just because we have beat this dead horse into a puddle of mud. If JS does become a member of this team if truely feel Drew can and will control him and put him in his place.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

SFIAH, you are the one-man anti-Shockey show these days.

I'm getting on board with what you are saying, but I have to take issue with the so called "productivity" argument.

What is the famous saying? Apples and Oranges (or Gorillas, if you prefer).

Usually I'm a big fan of the stats arguments, but a little more has to go into this one before you get "roughly equal or better" productivity as a conclusion. Here is what I take the argument to be:

P1. Number of catches and yards gained is a good indicator of production.
P2. Two of our TEs when combined have roughly the same number of catches and yards gained.
C. Our two TEs have the same production as Shockey.

That sounds ok (though I have no idea of P2 is true).

The problem is that the Conclusion (C) includes a third element, the team they played for. So here are the two additional premises (though there may be more) that need to be argued before I'll completely buy the conclusion.

P3 - The Giants and the Saints use the TE in roughly the same way.
P4 - The Giants and the Saints faced roughly similar talented Defenses last season.

I think it is possible that these are both true, but I don't know. To convince me on the productivity point, at least some work has to be done here.

I suspect P3 is false (again, just my best guess) and this will make it difficult to make the "equal productivity" argument work.

Another way to go would be to show that the statistical points "wash out" the relative differences in "the way the TE is used" in both schemes. I think that would be pretty convincing too.

I do, however, recognize that the productivity argument is just one piece of the whole puzzle for your claim that we shouldn't pursue Shockey (and the other parts stand on their own). I just think that this part could be a bit more convincing.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

... couple of things you guys are overlooking in your analysis:

1.- Drew Brees
2.- Sean Payton

The only reason why the TE is the 4th option in the Saints offense is because they are not that good. Our best TE last year was Billy Miller, not because of the stats, but because the plays he made.

Now, are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey?
Are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey if Eli is throwing the ball to them and Kevin Gilbride is calling the plays?

... I don't think so.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Have any of our TEs been to the Pro Bowl and how many times comapred to Shockey? Guys, If Peyton wants him there is a good reason.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Because he was with a team that DESERVED being thrown under the Bus. Because ALL the Giant players have been throwing Coughlin under the bus since he got there! Because WE ARE NOT a screwed up team!

God, you people act like you have never had a difference in attitude based on your enviornment! Ever had a job you hated? You went in to work thinking "here I go again, grrr." and then you get a new job and all is good? That has NEVER happened to you?

He makes us better. Period.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

There's no denying that talent-wise, Shockey is a top 5 talent. However, there's more to football that being talented. I live up in NY, all my friends are Giants fans and their fan base is 50/50 on him. You have to weigh his talents against his attitude and I for one don't want him as a Saint. Couple things I want to point out about him:

1) This guy ripped on the gay community saying he wouldn't stand for one of his teammates being gay. Oh, that's being a great teammate. Just the guy I want on my team...

2) A year later he calls Bill Parcells a derogatory name for being gay. He was never his coach but felt the need to throw him under the bus.

3) After losing a game to Seattle he throws his current coach under the bus saying "We got outplayed, and we got outcoached. Write that down."

4) The Giants went on to win the Super Bowl after he went down with an injury. The whole team got better when he went out of the lineup and that isn't a coincidence. He demands the ball all the time and when he doesn't he becomes a distraction. He's extremely selfish.

5) Having watched many Giants games, I can tell you this guy drops way too many touchdowns. He's solid between the 20's but once you get into the redzone, he disappears. The last thing we need is another guy dropping passes for Drew.

6) Lastly, the Giants are asking way to much for him. I'd much rather continue building our defense. Our offense is Super Bowl caliber. Team's with worse offenses than ours have won SB's in the last decade. We already traded away a draft pick for Vilma and I'm fine with that because we got a defensive starter. Unless Shockey can also play linebacker or corner at a pro bowl level, he won't help our team get to the next level.

JUST SAY NO TO JEREMY!!!

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Thats funny because the team wasn't so screwed up when he got hurt, all of a sudden they become a SB team.

They go thru the play offs and beat every Division Champion without a talent like him. Ya think you would need all your A-game talent on the field going up against champion teams.

He didn't make the Giants better... they got better when he got hurt and he had to take a seat in the cheap seats. They got so much better without him they went on to beat the Patriots in the SB.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Ok lets say we get Jeremy "ME, Selfish" Shockey.

I think we should start a pool on what will be the reasons he wants to be traded from us.

1. Food SUCKs!
2. Cajuns are gay!
3. Sean doesn't know his butt from a whole in the ground.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Conventional wisdom has it that Defense won the game for the Giants. Last I checked, Shockey didn't play defense.

I'm not saying I ascribe to this view (because I don't). However, before someone else says that Shockey's injury won the Giants the SB, I suggest they also address this argument (that is was Defense that really wins championships).

Furthermore, it is difficult to see how one can believe the only evidence for football related claims is watching a team play can also believe that they somehow "watch Shockey's not playing help the Giants win".

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything.

Where do you need to get better? Offense, Defense, Special Team, Training and Conditioning, Medical, Coaching, and Front Office.

Just because Defense needs the most help does not mean it should get ALL of it, and we need to improve across the board, every year, in every way.

Okay, great. I will agree the numbers don't lie, but they also don't mean anything. I don't care about offensive numbers or TE SB MVPs. Shockey did not help his team win the SB, but he damn well helped them to get to it.

I want a player who can help us get TO a Super Bowl, even a dysfunctional one like the Giants.


Again, you have to look at the teams and NOT just the numbers. Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales play on teams with NO Wide Receivers. Edwards is finally stepping up in Cleveland, but SD and KC have no WRs. Keenan McCardell, Sammy Parker, Eddie Kinnison, they have no one BUT the TE to throw to and haven't for years! In SD Gates leads receptions, usually followed by LT. Your #1 WR coming in 3rd for catches on your team to the TE and RB is not optimum.

Shockey's performance does not match theirs because they HAVE PEOPLE TO THROW TO in the New York.

You realize that old adage was started by incompetent leaders who didn't want the sheep to rock the boat and therefore point out their incompetence.

The malcontents are the result of screwed up teams. Go look at all the Giants news from the last few years. The whole team has been pretty unhappy with the coaching staff since Coughlin got there. Shockey is not the CAUSE of the Giants problems, he is the public admission of their problems.

Fit is not a problem. We have a good organization and solid leadership. Your lack of faith in the leadership of the team disturbs me a bit. Drew and Payton can handle Shockey, because they are not inept.

As for cost, I'll trade a productive player for a game-changing player any day of the week. A pawn can be very productive in chess, but I will still trade one for an extra knight or bishop any day, thanks.

Oh wow, a different person in a different situation being considered differently? How crazy is that? It's almost like complaining about your coach and being involved in shootings in strip clubs are totally different. It's almost like... like... like Pacman and Shockey are NOT the same person! Oh, wait, that is right, they are not!

Pacman Jones is someone who has the added risk of not being able to play. Even if he wasn't currently suspended, how long until he is suspended again? Pac-man is someone I would not want living in New Orleans.


Again, compare the Giants receivers to the SD and KC receivers. The only TE's that consistently outperform Shockey statwise are the ones who are the PRIMARY RECEIVERS for their teams! I am not taking anything away from Gonzales and Gates, but do you think they would have the stats they do if they played along side Marvin and Reggie or Issac and Tory? Their stats are padded because they get all the balls.

Shockey is not coming in to get 90+ catches a year, that is not why we want him. We want him because those 60 catches he makes are the tough ones Johnson drops.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Thats BS... if you didn't have a player running at the mouth about everything under the sun and his coaches, team mates... no one would think there was a problem.

SHUT UP AND PLAY BALL. He ran his mouth and now it goes to show him the coach he bad mouth won him a damn SB ring = IDIOT.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

So, if there WAS a problem and no one says anything about, then it isn't really a problem. A problem is only a problem if someone talks about it.

No. The Giants have had lots of problems with LOTS of players since Coughlin got there. No one acknowledges this.

I also don't care if he threw his coach under the bus. In one sentence, he held himself, his teammates, and his coaches accountable for losing a game. Who, instead of the players and coaches, do you usually hold accountable for a loss? He said "We got outplayed, and we got out coached." He was playing that game, he was taking his own share of the responsibility for the loss.

Everyone focuses on the part of that sentence that they want to focus on. I want to see him shut up and play too, he needs to be in a place where he can shut up and play, and that p[lace is New Orleans.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

JereME Shockey.... You forgot #4...

4. All of the above.

Put me down with no gays in the locker room. You know the type that shave their entire body.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Funny that you mention that :)

If I recall correctly, the NY defense gave up the lead with about 2 minutes on the clock. Then, the NE defense could not stop the Giants inside the 2 minute warning and gave up the lead back with 30-some seconds.

So I say offense won that one.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Dude, you're the man.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

seriously? I mean seriously??? you think that seriously???

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

I've tried to make that point to him all offseason... trust me, it won't get through. Now if it was Randy Moss you were talking about, he might sing a different tune.

:cool:

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Thank you! THANK YOU!

:D:D:D:D:D:D

SFIAH