Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

So I think we both can agree that's not bad compensation and affordable.

Just trying to show people can and do change... especially if they want to win.

It would be ideal for him to at least play out a year before he does so though. But even he wants one right away, looking at his current contract, a slight raise wouldn't really be a problem. He certainly wouldn't get more than the 17 million that Tony Gonzales got in KC as an extension.

In isolation or not, he's production is well worth that risk. He's not as bad as some are making him out to be.

Of course not. Our TE's have made plays for us... but they've also had plenty of costly drops and really done stretch the middle of the field for us. Acquiring a dependable guy like Shockey will make everyone's job easier.


Honestly it would be great if we could get Shockey for the right price... but if we didn't make a move for him, we'll be just fine. For me, it's more of me wanting you to see that both sides of the ball need to be addressed just not the defense. I've agreed with everything you've said this offseason besides the criticizing of any suggestion that we could use more help on offense.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

In general: the title of Professor is an actual job description. University professors make their living researching and analyzing information.

As a Saints fan: I've been with the Saints since I was a kid. A season ticket holder until I left for college. I'm invested.

I'm really doing nothing more than any avid fantasy footballer would do. It's just that the Saints are my fantasy football team.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Again I'm not so sure anymore. With point differential being an even stronger predictor.

The last two years have thrown the proverbial wrench into the works. Indy's 2006 regular season defense was awful. Sanders seems to be a singular guy that makes all the difference. They played like a top 10 defense in the playoffs. In the regular season they gave up 22.5 PPG. In the playoffs, it was 16.2. If that were projected onto the regular season, it would have been a top 3 defensive number. Same with the Giants: 21.6 in the regular season, 16.2 in the 4 playoff games. Again projected onto the regular season, that would have made the Giants tops in the league.

You have to have both excellent offense and defense to be successful. Pittsburgh in 2005 was a perfect example: top 10 offense and top 10 defense in the regular season. Won from the #6 playoff spot.

For the Saints to find balance, they needed to work on the defense. and maintain the offense.

What I'm saying is that improving the offense without a quantum leap in the performance of the defense wasn't going to be as helpful as keeping the offensive performance about the same, and vastly improving the defense.

As you said earlier it's a necessary but not sufficient condition. You have to have it, but if you offense is woeful, you cannot compete for the championship. See the 2007 Titans as the poster child for that argument.

All good possibilities for further research. It would take some digging to correlate.

But I think that's only a part of it. Playing keep away can certainly help your defense. But if they give up a TD over the top in 30 seconds, it won't matter how long you hold the ball.

At the end of the day, the defense has to be able to hold its own against most competition. And I think that trends towards "better" defenses by whatever category you want to measure.

The defense argument is somewhat sideways to the Shockey argument because the Saints (at least on paper) look like they've greatly improved their defense.

If any two of the cost/character arguments can be resolved, then Shockey would be worth it. But with all of them in play, IMO it will cost too much for the perceived return.

SFIAH

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Fair enough on the Shockey point.

Here's my take on the points allowed point: it is a good predictor because it measures both defense and offense - and it almost always indicates being good at both.

The point differential measure measures the same thing, I think.

Here is another avenue of inquiry: how big a margin is there between the SB team's defensive ranking and offensive ranking? For example, take the SB team's defensive rank, then subtract the offensive ranking. If the number is usually negative, then D is more important; if the number is usually positive, then the O is more important. (Other things equal.) Just a thought, though I like my earlier suggestion better.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Also,

I think we agree here. My point was playing keep away would improve a team's "points allowed" score, which is good. This is like the fact that the Defense can score. Keeping the ball away isn't sufficient for winning, in the same way not scoring on O isn't sufficient for losing.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

as long as shockey eats crayfish when he gets here i have no problem......

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

If Payton feels he could help the team, then I hope they can get him.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

Jeremy Shockey: Saints Still Interested

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
May 5, 10:28 am EDT

Update: The Saints are still interested in acquiring Shockey from the Giants, the Times-Picayune reports.

Recommendation: Head coach Sean Payton apparently wants a deal to be done desperately, so expect the Saints to pull out a few stops to acquire the unhappy tight end.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

I'd give them a fifth next year, thats it. They should have took the original deal of a second straight up!!! Screw em

shockeys future up for grabs.......
 

Kevin Gilbride says Jeremy Shockey's future up for grabs
BY RALPH Vacchiano
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Saturday, May 10th 2008, 9:55 PM

Kevin Gilbride recently told Jeremy Shockey he wants him back as a featured part of his offense. But the Giants' offensive coordinator admitted he doesn't know if that will happen.

"It's so nebulous right now, you just have no idea," Gilbride said. "Right now he's on our team. We're planning on him being there. He'll be one of the guys that we'll look to feature and one of the guys that we'll look to depend on. Hopefully he'll be here in good spirits and ready to do the things that we know he's capable of doing. But who knows? It's certainly beyond my hands."

Gilbride wouldn't reveal the details of their conversation, but he did say he spoke to Shockey to tell him "I hope he comes back, and if he does come back I'm looking forward to working with him, and I think his coaches and teammates all feel like I do, that we'll be a better football team because he's here. I just wanted to make sure he understood that."

What Gilbride declined to answer is whether the tight end, who requested a trade before the draft, wanted to return to the Giants. Several members of the organization - players, coaches and members of the front office - have reached out to Shockey to let him know he's wanted. But Shockey has yet to publicly make his desires or intentions clear.

The Giants were offered a second- and a fifth-round pick by the New Orleans Saints for Shockey, but they declined. They have not ruled out trading him, especially if the Saints were to offer a first-round pick, but they don't expect a deal to happen. Shockey, who has also demanded a new contract, has been working out on his own in Miami. He's not due back at Giants Stadium until the team's mandatory mini-camp, which begins on June 11.

Re: shockeys future up for grabs.......
 

from pfw.........

Though both Giants and Saints officials appear hesitant to close the door on a Jeremy Shockey trade, we hear there is nothing brewing or imminent. Saints head coach Sean Payton would like to add a weapon at tight end, but we hear that the Giants’ asking price might have gone up since no deal could be culminated before or during the draft, when the Saints were rumored to have offered a second-round pick.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we don't need to bring in another TE I just don't want it to be Shockey. I think this team has done alot better as a group the last 2 seasons without having to worry about Shockey's antics. Everyone also has to admit that Shockey is a big injury risk and we already are relying on one big injury risk in Deuce.

Signing Shockey has huge upside but the downside is somewhere I don't want to go.

Why does he want to get out of New York again? He wasn't receiving enough ball time, oh yeah that's right he was on the bench for the Superbowl run last year. Now what's the problem again?

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Not even... he's still not on the level of Brady or Brees in terms of production. He's still grouped in the second tier of starting quarterbacks... he just happened to win a Superbowl.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

agreed.....brees is one of the top 5 qbs in the league right now and even tho eli proved he had a lot of heart in the super bowl...it doesnt make him ne more accurate or ne smarter....he will continue to get better...dont forget he was the number 1 overall pick so he has the potential....but brees is undoubtedly a better QB right now and adding shockey to his already ridiculous arsenal would mean more points....more T.O.P.(time of possession) and more consistency in the tight end position....i dont think we will land him ne more....i would like to see him in black and gold tho

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

I am so close to using my mod powers here and kill this grrrrrrrrrrrr Only kidding LOL
he is not a saint and will not be one unless the price drops a lot. I am saying he never becomes one.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Kill it Hagan, die you ugly beast die

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Don't care about more points unless its to stop the other team from scoring points.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Sorry had to post this.........Has anyone seen it yet. Seems the rumors are swirling again. 2009 first rounder, and 4th rounder that could turn into a 2nd rounder. If they are pursuing this issue this hard, I look for it to get done by June. But then again that is what everyone said before the draft. Here is the link.

FOX Sports on MSN - NFL - Team Report

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

havent seen that one.. but thanks for the post dave

heres a few things from the article:

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

now i dont know how they could trade out 2009 4th round pick away considering its being used in the vilma deal.. but.. i dunno.. im pretty sure they have ways around that type of thing

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Pak the vilma deal works like this.
2008 we gave a 4th
2009 we give a 2nd or 3rd depending on playing time and contract signing.

2009A: Vilma is in pro bowl form and sign a long term deal. we are dancing the stands. 100+ tackle LB is in B&G again.
It is a 2nd we give and we get the NYJ's 4th rounder in return. Vilma costs a 2nd straight up.
OR
2009 B: We are still not sure if he can return to pro bowl form or he wants out of NO. We are still sitting and wondering what the heck happened and the beer tastes salty from our tears. Waite till next year.
It is a third we give and we get nothing. Vilma costs a 3rd and a 4th.

Now looking at that deal how in the world do you expect me to swallow this crap about the shockey deal? A 2nd straight up? Injury history alone and poor locker room presence? Come on.

Tell you what if it is a second I will have to leave my usual passive stance about players and really demand something from him. I will lead the lynch mob to airline hwy and start there. I will also put some crow in the freezer just incase.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Ok, a 1st rounder plus as much as a second.

Do we just feel like never drafting a player again?

I'm off the Shockey boat at that price. Find someone else to catch those passes. I'm sure there is a passable tight end somewhere, like on our roster!

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

will this talk ever end.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

... I said it before and I'll say it again: if the Saints want Shockey, they should wait for camp to start. If Shockey wants to leave NY, he needs only to start screaming at Eli during practice, and when Eli drops to the floor in the fetal position sucking his thumb, THEN you offer that 5th rounder next year because you feel benevolent that day.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

...so you're saying we've got a shot!! LOL.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

DOES SHOCKEY WANT TO STAY IN NEW YORK?
Posted by Mike Florio on May 11, 2008, 3:03 p.m.
Giants offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride has spoken with tight end Jeremy Shockey about his status with the team. And while Gilbride has shared some of the details regarding the discussion, Gilbride wouldn’t answer the $64,000 question.

Does Shockey want to stay in New York?

As to the prospect of a return by the 2002 first-round draft pick, Gilbride said, “It’s so nebulous right now, you just have no idea. Right now he’s on our team. We’re planning on him being there. He’ll be one of the guys that we’ll look to feature and one of the guys that we’ll look to depend on. Hopefully he’ll be here in good spirits and ready to do the things that we know he’s capable of doing. But who knows? It’s certainly beyond my hands.”

Shockey is believed to want both a trade and a new contract. There have been rumors and reports that he’s unhappy with the fact that the team ripped through the playoffs and won the Super Bowl without him, and that he’s bothered by talk that the team is better without him.

The Saints pursued him before the draft, and presumably still want him.

Whether a trade happens likely depends on Shockey’s disposition and demeanor when he reports for a mandatory minicamp on June 11.

If he reports for it. Though Shockey hasn’t hinted at a holdout, it wouldn’t surprise us if it happens.

ProFootballTalk.com - DOES SHOCKEY WANT TO STAY IN NEW YORK?

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

As I said way earlier in this thread I don't want Shockey on the Saints. I think his attitude and character outweigh his talent. I've also seen way too many Giants games where he has cost the team with big drops in the red zone and dumb penalties.

I see a lot of the pro-Shockey people comparing him to Randy Moss. First, Moss and Shockey aren't in the same league in terms of production. Moss is one of the most dynamic game-breakers the NFL has ever seen. He's much more dangerous and talented than Shockey and the Pats got him for a 4th round pick! The Giants were looking for a 2nd and Harper and now are supposedly looking for a 1st and another pick ranging from 2nd-4th round. Are you kidding me?

With what the Giants are looking for, we could easily land Jason Taylor who is looking to get out of Miami. Taylor is a high character guy who would really help our defense. Just imagine Taylor and Smith rushing on the outside with Ellis and Grant playing at DT. This would essentially give us the defense the Giants had last year that won the Super Bowl. Smith and Taylor would be very similar to Osi and Strahan. Grant would do exactly what Justin Tuck did when he went from DE to DT. And Ellis has a lot more upside than any player the Giants threw in there next to Tuck. The Giants LB's and secondary weren't very good but never had to cover for long because of the pass rush.

Making a trade for Taylor would make sense because that puts us in a real good position to contend. Now, I'm not saying we should definitely do this trade. I'm very happy with keeping our picks and building a team. But if we are going to trade some picks, I want a stud defensive player who is going to put our team over the top, not a TE that comes with a lot of baggage.

When I compare Jason Taylor to Jeremy Shockey, it's very easy for me to choose who I would rather have on my team.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

The last I checked he is still on the Giants Roster.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

see i think ur wrong.. i think we gave up the 4th this year, and a 4th next year that could be up to a 2nd depending on PT an resigning.. if we have to give up the 2nd then we get their 4th in return..

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Heck if it is an additional 4th lets pull a meach with vilma for a year and sit him. Let the guy heal.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

10 reasons we need shockey..........

1) someone needs to get in brees face when he falls flat against better teams. it worked for manning...............
2)god knows, we need a blocker.............
3) payton needs his man crush satisfied........i compare this to, haslett-brooks.................but, in a positive way................
4) yes, someone will get hurt and someone needs to step up.........see reason # 1............
5) we need a few more guys with the, i want the ball attitude...........
you can never have enough of em.........
6) we actually do need a good t.e......................
7) i miss turley.........tell me you don't..................
8) it's getting harder to come up with answers, can't you tell?
9) i'm almost done.................
10) so we can lay this topic to rest and start a whole new shockey is a saint forum....................smitty

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

hagan i believe we only signed vilma for one year...after this year he is free agent again and could go right back to jets and we would have payed 4th round pick for nothing

ugh! i just realized i contibuted to the neverending shockey post

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Though both Giants and Saints officials appear hesitant to close the door on a Jeremy Shockey trade, we hear there is nothing brewing or imminent. Saints head coach Sean Payton would like to add a weapon at tight end, but we hear that the Giants’ asking price might have gone up since no deal could be culminated before or during the draft, when the Saints were rumored to have offered a second-round pick.

from PFW

The Way We Hear It - NFL pro football rumors and insider news from Pro Football Weekly

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

I see us signing Vilma no matter what. This additional 4th is new to me. I was kidding. I want pro bowl and loss the 2nd pick. 6 year deal min

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Geeze this is a long *** thread. Guys we can all agree that as a football player, on the field he would improve the team but there is no way we are getting him so lets move on.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Gilbride tells Shockey he wants him, but status remains unclear


Offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride became the latest Giants official to reiterate that Jeremy Shockey remains the team's starting tight end — as things stand now. No one has guaranteed that Shockey will remain with the team when the games start this fall, but Gilbride went as far as calling Shockey to tell him he wants his tight end this season. “It is so nebulous right now,” Gilbride said Saturday. “You just have no idea what is going to happen. Right now he is on our team, and we are planning on him being there. He will be one of the guys that we look to feature and one of the guys that we will look to depend on, and hopefully he will be here in good spirits and ready to do the things that we know he is capable of doing. But who knows? It is certainly beyond my hands.”



The Way We Hear It - NFL pro football rumors and insider news from Pro Football Weekly

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Though both Giants and Saints officials appear hesitant to close the door on a Jeremy Shockey trade, we hear there is nothing brewing or imminent. Saints head coach Sean Payton would like to add a weapon at tight end, but we hear that the Giants’ asking price might have gone up since no deal could be culminated before or during the draft, when the Saints were rumored to have offered a second-round pick.

Re: payton wants shockey...................
 

I disagree. It was less disingenuous and more sarcastic.

Yeah, but every defense does not have to cover different TEs the same way.

Hell, I would stay way off of Eric Johnson. Better chance of the ball deflecting into a defender's hands than there is of him catching it. Yeah, I know, I know, he isn't really that bad, but he has to suck up the abuse until he makes up for it.

Gates and Gonzales are the top receivers on their teams, the main targets.

They are not defended the way Crumpler or Witten were, because they were usually more short range targets that can bust out a long one.

And they in turn are not defended the way Johnson and Miller were, because they are not the threats that the aforementioned TE's are.

Nope. Not a chance.

Re: Jeremy Shockey
 

Saints no longer in pursuit of TE Shockey

Saints GM Mickey Loomis said Thursday that the team is no longer in pursuit of Jeremy Shockey.

"We had some discussions with (New York) and we just couldn’t come to a conclusion on the right compensation," Loomis said. "He's a very good player and the Giants don't want to just give him away. I don't anticipate that being rekindled." Shockey would've been a better fantasy bet in New Orleans, where he would've done less blocking, but the Jints are smart to hold on. May. 15 - 6:08 pm et
Source: Bergen Record