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Here's the deal. I have believed that the Saints have a very real chance at going to the playoffs this year. Many (you know who you are) have stated in no uncertain terms they believe that the Saints do not have a chance to get to the playoffs.

After 2 games I have not been proven right and the bashers ( and I use that word because it really does apply) have not been proven right either. The FACT is that no one can be proven right or wrong until the Saints are mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs.

I have no illusions that because we won one game that this means we are Super Bowl bound. I'm not that foolish. I also wasn't foolish enough to go around preaching that the Saints sucked after we lost to Seattle last week. I'm not here to call anyone foolish or to say "hey look I'm was right".

What I am here to say is it's going to be a roller coaster ride this year. Now, all of you can come on here after every loss and say how bad the Saints suck and I can keep telling you to be patient and keep giving you reasons why I don't think they are, or we can all have a little more patience.

Some members ( Rusta, smitty, lummOx, B&B, tweeky, saintsfan, JoeSam, nocloning) have criticised, but they DID NOT go around telling everyone how bad the Saints are going to suck the whole year. Now, some members have gone to great lengths not only to point out how bad the Saints have looked but to say that they will continue to be LOSERS the whole year.

If these first 2 games have told us nothing else, I would hope that it has told us that we need to have patience and let's criticise when justified and not go around saying some of the stuff that's being said.

Of course that's just my opinion and I really don't care what any of you say because I will continue to be the most optimistic person on this board.

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If the first two games have taught us nothing then how can you say criticism is unjustified? Billy - you really need to learn that there is a difference b/w when something is justified and when YOU THINK something is justified.

I think it\'s funny how you skew things sometimes. For example, I was clumped in the category of Bashers in your post who apparently believer the Saints are going to be \"LOSERS\". I predicted 8-8. That\'s neutral last I checked.

Should we show this team some patience? Yes, you\'re right about that, we should. But until they prove that they can win in November and December and make the playoffs, they\'re the same ole Saints. Further, even if they win the Super Bowl, that\'s not to say that no criticism is warranted about any part of the team. They could win the Super Bowl and Jay Bellamy would still suck.

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First off -- I didn\'t say anything about WhoDat. I think you have been more fair than others, but I still think you reach at times with some of the stuff.

You\'re right about some criticism being warranted but if you think that All of the things that have been said is warranted -- maybe you need to go back and read what has REALLY been said.

I find a lot of the critisicm is justified but a lot of it was BullSh!t. I find it funny how you skew things around. For instance the comment about Jake being a fanchise QB after one start. And the comment about how you KNOW the Saints screwed up the defense.

Now I ask you to go back and show me where I skewed anything.

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Billy, making the playoffs is not good enough for me this year. sorry, but this team should have been ready for a conference championship at the minimum this year.

This is what makes you and me complete opposites. If the saints do not play sound football every week I will pick them apart because it means there is place for improvement.

I am one who can\'t tolerate excuses in anything. If you suck, admit it and do something about it to make yourself better. If you are good, remember you have to do it again, and again, and again.

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Did someone say Jake Delhomme was a franchise QB?

hmmmmm...

Did they really?

...interesting

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FWtex -- Look man -- I don\'t want to question your football knowledge any more than I already have but geez.

If you can\'t toerate anything but perfection, then you need to stop watching football. How did the Bucs look to you yesterday or any other team for that matter? If you pick apart teams because there is room for improvement then you will pick apart EVERY TEAM.

Why stop at the conference championship? Why don\'t you demand a Super Bowl Victory with a dominate performance of 50-0? You got to get to the playoffs first !!

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Billy, what band instument did you play? Is your name spelled Billy or Billie? I ask because you always interpret everyting like a woman.

I was really giving you credit for knowing what it takes to be a winner in sports but you ruined that now.

I\'ll try this one more time but since you never ever answer anyones question on this board I am not expecting much of a reply from you.

Why do coaches spend time after every game reviewing film of the last game? I guess all good players and coaches should get out of football too?

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Patience does not apply in Pro Football. This is not baseball, where you play 162 games in a season, we only have 16 games. Every game must be played, and played with urgency. Patience would allow a team to get to a 2-6 record at the half-way mark, leaving them having to win 8 straight to stay in contention for the playoffs.
Criticism is a justifiable evil with a team like the Saints. Criticism in politics, for example, is part of a series of checks and balances we have in place to help monitor the actions of those with great responsibility. Without criticism, individuals become complacent or indifferent. Indifference leads to self destruction. I would rather someone love me or hate me, instead of feel nothing at all towards me, at least with love/hate I know where I stand with that individual.
We know the Saints have the talent to succeed. I believe that in order to succeed, we must cast patience aside and surround themselves with a sense of urgency, in every aspect of their daily lives. The only weapon we have to monitor the players is criticism. As long as it is justified.

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Amen, B&B, it\'s tough being Semi-king! LOL :P

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You are right B&B -- As long as it\'s justified. But, I can show you plenty that\'s not justified and that\'s the part I have a problem with. If fans can bash just for the sake of bashing then they ought to expect to be called on it.

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Correcting someone\'s opinion is one thing, telling them they are wrong to bring it up at all is another thing all together. Stiffling opinions breeds ignorance.

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You are right again. However, stiffling \"Ignorant Opinions\" breeds intelligence!!

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Just for fun BillyC...post up an unjustified criticism.

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There\'s one for ya LummOx -- Noticed he stated as a FACT the defense WILL NOT get any better. The only way that statement can be justified is if he has a crystal ball.

Now just for fun LummOX -- You tell me if that statement is justified??


[Edited on 15/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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So WhoDat is wrong in stating this or should he have not stated it to begin with because it conflicts with your personal outlook? Nitpicking on whether something someone said was stated as a fact or an opinion is reaching...

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B&B --

Let\'s cut to the chase. First you tell me it\'s wrong to say someone isn\'t entitled to their opinion(which by the way, I did not say). Which is telling me I\'m not entitled to my opinion. Your talking out both sides of your neck. If you can tell me it\'s wrong to state my opinion then your contridicting yourself.

Next, anyone can say anything they want to, but when you go around playing fortune teller and trying to make everyone believe that you know the defense is going to be pathetic, you better be prepared for me to tell you that you don\'t know what your talking about.

The only one that\'s nit picking here is you !!!

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Keep skating the issue. I liken it to a dog chasing it\'s tail. He tries and tries, but is too stupid to know that it is impossible.

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I\'m all about keeping to the issue at hand. All you have done is resorted to name calling which tells me you are losing this arguement. Of couse if I listened to you, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but me.

I can show you a 100 times that I beleive everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just simply disagree and state why I think they are wrong. You seem to have big problems with this.

If you believe that all the bashing is justified, then good for you. I don\'t ,and I could care less what you or anyone else thinks.

Edit -- For the record -- You keep making it sound like I am saying someone doesn\'t have the right to state their opinion. I don\'t know where you get that from, but I guess you have to make something up to make your arguement crediable. I only said it wasn\'t justified. Furthermore, what I say isn\'t law -- I can believe things aren\'t justified just like you believe they are. Can I not?






[Edited on 15/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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I have a fact so I can post on here. Billy you have posted 5 responses since my last one where I asked you a question. You still have not answered the question just like I had PREDICTED. See I can predict the future so that means I can post whatever thoughts I have about the saints.

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You mean this question? They review game to improve or to gain knowlegde of another teams schemes. No all good players and coaches should not get out of football. I didn\'t answer your question earlier because it makes no sense.

You guys are all full of opinions but yet when I say they aren\'t justified, all of you get your feathers all ruffled. You guys tell me Aaron sucks and will not improve -- I tell you that you\'re full of sh!t and that your facts don\'t support your arguement. This makes you mad?? All I can tell ya is get over it.

You tell me that the Saints did not improve from last year and their record is going to be worse. I tell you guy\'s that you are doomsayers and have no facts to justify this with and you get mad once again. Do you think I disagree with you to make you happy. If so, you are wrong.

Now keep in mind -- I never said you weren\'t allowed to say whatever the hell you want to. While not many may go against what you guys are saying. I WILL and WILL continue to do so, until I feel like Aaron and this team has been given a fair chance.

You guys have every reason to beleive whatever it is you believe and I have every reason to beleive you are wrong. Get it????

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Well Billy....that statement did have some crystal ball remarks in it, but at the time it was said pretty much everything was based on factual evidence. At the time the post was made, the team had dropped 3 or 4 pre-season games and a regular season road opener. At that point in the 2003-2004 year, no the defense hadn\'t gotten better. To say that they will not get better was that person\'s individual assumption and there is no way that it could be based on facts. Just like saying the defense WILL get better would be the same. So in that right, saying it will or won\'t is unjustified, but that it may or may not would be justified. It then falls to a question of semantics and how statements are interpretted.

Everyone on here is guilty of making hard statements to try to emphasize the conviction of their opinions. I guess that leaves them open to criticism as well.

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LummOx--

It\'s not anything personal against anyone. I just think some members are so obsessed with bashing the front office, coaches, players, quarterback, that they don\'t attempt to see that MAYBE just MAYBE this team has improved.

As much as everyone like Sammy Knight he isn\'t doing so well in Miami right now and I believe he hurt our defense last year. I also beleive Turley hurt our O-line last year and this year he is doing terrible in St. Louis.

Some think our offense isn\'t as good as last year. I find that hard to believe. We have the same starters with an added year of experience in the system and a legit tight-end. Yet they give me some off the wall reason as to why they aren\'t going to be any good. I just don\'t see it.

They tell me the defense isn\'t going to be any good because we didn\'t sign the players they wanted and the front office isn\'t commited to winning. I see a 1st round draft choice on the line. An improved Grady Jackson. Howard Grant is a difference maker. They tell me preseason told the story. I\'m sorry -- I just ain\'t buying it -- Not till I see more becaause RIGHT NOW, they ain\'t looking to bad....

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Yeah, I was nitpicking, but it\'s fun for me to get you all worked up. I call it \"interactive entertainment.\" I still stand by what I said, and no, it wasn\'t implying that everyone is entitled to an opinion except you, I\'m still trying to figure out where you got that. All I did was ask you a question and suddenly you\'re laying out more drama than Meryl Streep. I read it all the time, conversation rolls along, then out of left field, you decide to get confrontational- like you have something to prove. People here are growing weary of it, I\'ve read it several times. Push people far enough and they will skip your posts and threads entirely, possibly missing good information that you may bring to the table. But it won\'t matter to them, at that point.
But please, take that statement, and claim that I\'m trying to take a hit out on your life, or something else far fetched. I need a laugh.

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lumm0x, BnB - I know you two weren\'t explicitly coming to my defense, but thanks for your posts. This is what I\'ve been saying for a long time. We can all over analyze the meaning of each other\'s posts and make almost any meaning out of them. Billy is very good at this. The problem is that there are people on this board that do not read into the spirit of the post. The implied meaning - what was trying to be said.

My major problem with Billy is his inability to distinguish between his opinion and fact. Basically, no one on here is posting fact, simply their own perception of events.

The thing that is most glaring to me about the post that Billy used is this...

He used this quote to show people making \"unjustified\" statements:

\"But like I said, the defense didn\'t get any better this off season. They\'re bad and will stay that way.\"

He\'s alleging that I stated that as FACT, but in fact it is a prediction or opinion. Of course, the real issue here is that Billy disagrees. Notice that he didn\'t question these statements:

\"All is not lost...\"
\"This team will win some games. They remain incredibly talented on offense.\"
\"The offense will pick it up over this week\'s performance...\"

Those quotes are equally, if not more, speculative than the quote he chose. Of course, the quotes above support his opinions, and thus he does not take issue with them. This is Billy\'s real problem.

Overall, he is a good poster. He stirs the sh!t and has strong opinions. He, and especially saintfan, need to learn how to concede every once in a while, but both make this board a better place.

In any case, this board is one in which opinions are posted. They are ALL justified. Who are we to determine what is justified or unjustified. I\'d bet a lot of money that if you told Billy last season when the Saints were 7-2 that they wouldn\'t make the playoffs, he\'d have said that was \"unjustified\". I bet if you told his two years ago that the 1-3 Patties would win the Super Bowl he would say that was \"unjustified\". Point is, NO ONE knows the future, and regardless of knowledge, experience, or any grounds in reality whatsoever, NO OPINION is un justified.

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thanx B&B for proving what i thought was happening, which is...

that 75% of the bashing is just to get under billy\'s skin

i really was starting to think you guys really were panthers fans for a little while

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Well \"Saints Fans\" continue on telling everyone how great Jake Delhomme is and how much the Saints suck. Say something enough times and SOMEONE will beleive you.

B&B -- You seem to want to bring this on a personal level. You are entitled to your opinins of me and everything else. As far as members skipping over my posts -- If that the case then that\'s just going to have to be the way it is. I will continue to believe what it is I believe and will continue to laugh at the doomsayers.

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LOL

I think I\'ve tested damn near everyone here, except the moderators, so you can never say that I\'ve ever singled anyone out. Billy does provide the most entertainment, so much so that it\'s not even close.
Speaking of moderators, if Pak is no longer a moderator, that makes him fair game. I\'ll be watching you, Yoda, very closely. :P

EDIT: Billy, if this was personal, I\'d ignore you.


[Edited on 16/9/2003 by BlackandBlue]

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You know, I think the story of how YODA got his name needs to be posted somewhere. I don\'t get enough credit for that. I mean, after all, isn\'t this board all about one thing...??? ME?!?! LOL

Anyone ever hear how Yoda learned about the force?

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FWtex:
___________________________________________________________________________

Billy, what band instument did you play? Is your name spelled Billy or Billie? I ask because you always interpret everyting like a woman

___________________________________________________________________________

That is so hillarious, cause I was thinking the exact same thing!!!

Billy, I do a whole lot more reading on here than I do posting, and you are NOT very open to other`s opinions. Just like YOU do, many people state their opinion in factual style and other people seem to understand that. Last week I posted a reply to a question of \"What would Brooks have to do to get some respect?\" you replied to my post and called it \"garbage\". Like my opinion had no factual basis. (it was an opinion for the love of pizza :mad: )
Now your boy Brooks played at an exceptable level last sunday, and the defense played fantastic, but for you to make playoff predictions based on what we`ve seen thus far.......now I`m not going to call this \"garbage\".... but it aint poetry.

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First things first. Everyone of you are entitled to your opinion. Just like I am entitled to mine.

1. I will call into question anyone who says Aaron Brooks sucks.

2. I will call into question anyone who says the Saints do not have a realitic shot at going to the playoffs.

3. I will call into question anyone who says that preseason told us anything.

4. I will call into question anyone who says Jake Delhomme has proved anything. Much less being a \"Franchise QB\"


Know why I think it is foolish to make those statements?

A.) As far as I\'m concerned you have nothing to support none of this with, except a bunch of garbage.

B. ) Because just as sure as you can go around trying to convice me and others that this is more than likely gonna happen -- I can sure say just the oppsite --



B.)

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1) and I will continue to bash Brooks if he continues to be consistently inconsistent. He did great last Sunday. Let`s hope it continues.

*** I was at the game Sunday and something some of you may not have seen on TV or heard on the radio was I saw Brooks going out on the feild and meeting the defense half way as the players headed for the sidelines to swap out after causing a 4th down situations for the Texans. He was giving hi-5`s and atta-boys to our defense. I really liked that. Things like that earn my respect.

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.

You can bash all you want and maybe one day Aaron can live up to your expectations. Can you tell me exactly what he will have to do for you to be happy? Can ya do that for me? Can ya? Huh?

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Well let me ask you this \"Was Brooks playing up to your expectations last week and down the stretch last season?\"

What can Brooks do to make me happy? .....simple, play consistent smart football. He can do it. We`ve seen it.
You and I both know that we have the potential to go to the next level with our offensive weapons and seemingly improved defense. I just don`t want Brooks to blunder this opportunity.

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Aaron Brooks does need to continue to improve and be more consistant -- There is no doubt about that -- However, most of the things that have been said are completely unjustified .

WhoDat brought up a couple of very good points that I would like to address. He says that the probabitlity of making the playoffs and not making them are about the same. So, he says that anyone\'s opinion is justified regarding the Saints making the playoffs. I\'m going to agree with WhoDat -- I do believe that the Saints have a realistic chance OF NOT going to the playoffs. I also believe that the Saints HAVE a realistic chance at going to the playoffs.

Not only do I beleive that the Saints have a realistic chance at going to the playoffs, I believe that with the way the NFL is today that most teams have a chance of going to the playoffs. The Bengals would probably be the one team that DOES NOT have a realistic chance at going to the playoffs and I\'m not even sure about that. It\'s just so hard to predict who will make the playoffs these days. But, one thing is for sure -- The Saints aren\'t the Bengals !!

What get\'s me is that members on here give the Saints very little RESPECT. I hear them give teams such as the Panthers respect and talking about them going to the playoffs and how great and wonderful they are and this is a team that has major problems on offense.

WhoDat makes another very good point and that would be when he talks about \"the spirit of the message\" made by members on here. The only spirit I\'ve gotten by a lot of members it the that Haslett sucks, Venturi sucks, Aaron Brooks sucks, the play calling sucks, the cornerbacks sucks, the defensive line sucks, the linebackers suck, etc, etc..

There is VERY LITTLE you will ever here these members say that is positive about the Saints. They say they have every right to say just about everything sucks about the Saints and they are right.

However, I find it odd that they aren\'t willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt. Now, it\'s true , they don\'t have to do anything. This doesn\'t make them any less of a fan than anyone. It justs makes them bashers that aren\'t willing to give this team and this season a chance. Of course, they will say they will be pulling for them every week and I\'m sure they will, but they will be ready to bash the first chance they get.

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Everyone has sat in Billy\'s seat with a similar situation. I can\'t remember if it was Billy or B&B that brought up some negative comment about Pat Swilling, and since he is my favorite Saints of all-time I will go to no end to defend the guy. I truly believed every post I made to defend him and always will. No one can ever change my opinion of the guy, and the same goes for Walter Payton. I can\'t hear a single ngative thing about him without snapping.

My point is that once you\'ve made up your mind on a subject there is no amount of evidence or agruing that will change that opinion. Billy will never believe any negative comments about Brooks as adamantly as I won\'t of Swilling or Payton. And smmitty won\'t about his dog, and WhoDat about his fantasy team, and Pak about his midget.......oh that was Kid Rock, sorry....etc.

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LummOx --

I\'ll admit that the Brooks bashing really gets under my skin. Not because I believe he has proven he is great already, but because, if nothing else, he has earned the right to be the starting QB for the Saints. Whatever the reason is that fans don\'t like Brooks, for the life of me I can\'t understand why they want to cut the guy. I\'ve gone back and read some articles on great QB\'s from years past and many have experienced the same bashing from the fans, until they proved themselves. So, I guess this is normal.

All I have say to all the folks who says he CAN\'T do it -- I hope when he does prove himself that you will not cross over and become an Aaron Brook\'s fan. I know if I were him that I wouldn\'t want ya.



[Edited on 16/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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mmmmm, fun!

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Everyone has an opinion about how they believe the Saints are doing and how they think the Saints season will turn out. I for one think everyone is right some of the time and try to keep an open mind about every issue. Right now all we have about the upcoming season is speculation, from us, Haz, the players and definitely the media. We all love the Saints and I\'m sure even the people that are thought to be bashers, would love to see that just as much as everyone else.

Geaux Saints!!!

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Thanks for pooping on my parade.

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I stared reading thos thread and somehow I got totall lost in what its about... the one thing I got was we are all trying to figure out who\'s opinion is everyone\'s opinion. We are all entittled.

Debating Brooks as a QB is kind of stupid if you ask me. I mean this guy\'s stats ONLY improve not get worse or even stay the same for that matter. You can question 4 key fumbles last year and they were stupid but other than that he finishes in the top ten. What the hell... that isn\'t the problem with the team. When you have someone doing his job and finishing in the top ten you look else where.