The Elephant in the room.....
 

Ok, if this subject was agreed upon, NOT to be talked about, I apologize in advance, because I didn't get the memo.... What did everyone think about the "protest", towards the owners last night, at the beginning of the game, and Brees' involvement with it? I mean, I guess it wasn't THAT big of a deal, but the backlash today, from the fans, has been pretty rough. I heard one fan say on the radio this morning, that they are all a bunch of "rich guys, trying to act like they are unionized dock workers. with unemployment reaching the 20 percent mark in this country, it's really sad to see this going on."

I'm a firm believer in getting paid for what you do, and what they do it very dangerous indeed. But not as dangerous as say being a policeman, or in the military, or a fireman. Those guys put their lives on the line everyday, and don't make anywhere NEAR what a bench warming NFL scrub makes. I have a hard time feeling sorry for their prediciment. Maybe someone can explain it better, to where I can understand it better.

Unity is a good thing. The players should show solidarity. Good for them.

I agree on their solidarity being a good thing. My only problem I guess, is that the fans are the ones that could suffer from this, and with the price of tickets, merchandise, and even cable, alot of people can't even afford to keep up with sports in general anymore. The owners are the one's making more money than anyone right now, so that is also a point I understand. The players want their part of it, because they are the one's taking the chances with their lives here. It just seems to be a very complicated situation to me.

The Nfl is a business and just like any other union, they stick together. The players get a lot of $h!t from fans when the owners make more than 10 times what the players do to sit in the box!

Just sayin'

Ok, I just found something on a yahoo discussion, that cleared up alot of confusion for me. Check it out:

"There is a big confusion here, the issue doesn't revolve around players STRIKING, but the owners LOCKING the players out. There is a big difference because while the LOCKOUT is going on the Owners are still getting paid from television contracts and merchandising while the players aren't. Now you want 18 games in one season and you want the players to keep giving in taking less money while someone else pockets get fat and they have migraine headeache and could barely walk 10 yrs after retirement? It's ridiculous. I am all for the players here like I was for Revis. The fans come to see the players not the owners. Why do you think they keep building all these new stadiums so the owners can just keep getting richer well after they discard the players. Makes no sense to me. Fine Brady makes all that money but Kraft make 20x that much off football fans who come to see Brady."

The NFL is making a piss-load of money. I'm normally anti-union because I believe that their intended purpose has been bastardized by greedy people over the years and that they now more than ever protect shoddy workmanship.

Still, I'm with the players on this one.

Yeah, I agree. When I first heard about this, I think that the media was really out to make the players look greedy, when it's really the owners, that are the one's making this happen. They keep calling it a "strike" by the players, when in reallity, if there is no football, it will be the owners faults, for not budging on the requests of the NFLPA. Players do make alot of money, no question, but there are alot of things they want, that have nothing to do current with rosters. Better care for retired players is good. I also have to say though, that these guys REALLY need to take better care of their money, at the same time. How can you get a guaranteed contract of 20 million dollars, and have to file for bankruptcy? Don't let your gold digging wife handle the finances I guess....

They should stick together and they shouldn't get another damn percentage point. The make plenty enough, get plenty enough attention and the owners own the teams.

There was a REALLY interesting article back in the 90's done by Sport Illustrated on "The Worth of Professional Athlete's" (I'll try and find it), but at the end of the day ... They aren't paid NEARLY what they bring in.

Personally, I understand the comments about policemen, firefighters, military etc. .... I'm in the Air Force, but that's a CHOICE I made (all of us did knowing what we'd be paid) ... Just like all of you made a choice to go to the Saints game (or any other sports venue) and feed the hungry cash cow ... Life is about CHOICES. I'm not implying that anyone here was *****ing, but it doesn't change the fact that you can't complain about the choices you made in life ... Last time I checked America was a free nation (thanks to Military people and GREAT American's) ... But, we all do what we do knowing that we won't get rich from it --- It's a duty that we gladly give.

In essence, these guys bring in MILLIONS of dollars and get paid a fraction of what they bring in, so who cares if they stick together -- they should. I would do it and so would you ...

The owners also assume all the finacial risks and liabilites too though, just like any other business.

very nice post, and very interesting thread, Pauly. not that anyone's posting needs my approval...

Now remember, Im the one here who thinks an 18 game schedule would be too cruel for the players. Everyone else disagrees with my point, saying, it doesnt matter because they make a zillion dollars, so their feelings, bones, and general humanity dont matter.

-- but I question whether owners are really cleaning up as much as we think. Unless you've ever started a business with your own money, I wonder if you understand their situation. They have an astronomical payroll to make, which only seems to grow, & fans who have no qualms about somebody else spending their money.

They must be operating tightly, or else they wouldnt have to move to other cities, just to get a stadium which can generate enough income to support them. This is why they have to invent PSL's, and longer seasons, along with 30 dollar parking and 8 dollar beer.

Meanwhile you and me are screaming at them to spend $100 million on idiots like Albert Haynesworth because, after all their money grew on a tree. It came from somewhere, I am sure.

I could be dead wrong, and the owners could all be "lying, greedy, white, capitalists." Personally, I dont resent the rich, and I think someone who sticks their neck out and invests their own money in something has a right to make a profit. I know Tom Benson didnt get money from a genie. He started out sweeping floors, and probably did without a few things as a kid. Why shouldnt he make a profit? He has aching bones too.

Im not sure, but I believe pro athletes are the only people in society who get both the security of a collective agreement, along with the icing on the cake of individual deals, signing bonuses, and endorsements. And they should make money, theyre risking their bones, and future health.

Here's what I know. Every time another batch of players demands a billion jillion dollars, the tickets go up, along with parking, beer, merchandise, and they start inventing new fees, such as the PSL. This cant be good for the New Orleans's and Green Bays of the league.

Oh, and this is also why the coin toss, first down marker, goal post, replay, and the referee's whistle will all soon need sponsors. "This penalty is brought to you by Roto-Rooter." We already stop the game just to play extra commercials.

At some point enough has to be enough. If you like having football, I think you would be for a return to sanity.

These players are too young to make that kind of money anyway... How many of them, like lottery winners, end up broke? I say take a big chunk of that money they would spend on jewelry, ridiculous cars, ridiculous houses, strippers, toys, and entourages, and defer it into retirement accounts, pensions, education for their kids, and healthcare. Encourage them to defer their pay toward the end of their contract and keep that money away from leeching family members, leeching friends, and gold digging whores. A couple of thousand for a reversible vasectomy, would save 100 million in child support, for a kid whos' mother was earning $50 a "date" before she met her goldmine. Then I have to pay more for my seat. His whore becomes my whore.

If we could somehow "help me help you" for these young men, we'd be helping ourselves also.

Ill tell you something else too. The less you and me think about our favorite pastime as a "business," the better it is for both the players and owners. It is in their best interest for us to think about yards and points, and not dollars and contracts.

Protest? I don't know if it was a protest but just showing support as players.

I don't buy that.

You protect our country - how much is that worth? (priceless I say)

I teach high school & have for 20 years - what is that worth?

Cops prtoect us, firemen save us & our stuff, nurses take care of us, doctors work on us, etc. etc.

Yes we do make choices. I am not teaching to make money. You aren't serving our country to become rich.....

BUT!!!!

Greed is greed. Yes the owners are absolute ck skers!!! But the players are greedy also.

If they both would be willing to REDUCE what they make & allow prices to go to a level that an everyday guy can more easily afford, talk to me then.

GREED is what is destroying this county. Simple & easy.

(sorry for the rant - I have not seen a raise or step increase in pay in 4 years. I can't strike, not in Florida)

God bless you though. I am amazngly thankful for people such as yourself who are willing to sacrifice all that you do!! :p

i understand that it is hard to get romantic about millionaires vs billionaires but average player in the NFL does not make THAT much especially when you consider the career span is only 4 years.

so solidarity is a terrific thing.

I wish they would bargain for some of these gazillionare owners showing more support for the city taxpayers that bought them there stadiums.

and super stars like brees being front and center only adds to my admiration of the guy.

I always have a hard time siding with the players when this issue comes up. I think more performance based salaries would make it easier to stomach the $200 tickets, $30 parking and $9 beers

I also do not have much sympathy for the players in their plight. I understand that their careers are shorter than that of fellow professional athletes in other sports, but they are compensated well for our "entertainment". Why does anyone care how much the NFL or the owner's make if they are the one's making an investment? Yes, I realize the player's allow the investors to make the money, but this is kind of how it is in any career or job. Some people run the risk and some people help the risk takers make their money and in turn are compensated for making the risk takers the money. While I do not begrudge anyone the ability to earn, ultimately the cost of the end product increases to the consumer as it does with any good or service provided when there is an increase in the raw cost of that product.

I think that if they were trying to send a message to the owners, they were holding up the wrong finger.

You mean all I had to do was choose to be an NFL QB and I coulda been one? I want a mully!

I use to feel like you do SaintPaul. Here is the way I look at it.

I am a Military service member. As a Soldier, I know there are Soldiers are better trained than I am. Such as, Special Forces, Seals, Rangers and Delta Force; just to name a few. I wont say they are a better Soldier than I am but they are more trained and the best at what they do. They do get special pay for being elite.

Now, do the Pro sports guys deserve 16 million dollars a year?

Well, if you look at these couple of factors.....yes, I think they do.
1. Pro sports is a commercial business. Gatoraid, Poweraid, Shaving companies, Banks; you name it, all get money (in the end) everytime Payton Manning drinks their drink, shaves with "this razor" or puts his money in "this bank". Hell, I bought the new Gillette Pro Glide razor, just because it had the New Orleans Saints Fluer on it.

2. The owners make unknown (to me) amounts of money from those sponsers mentioned above. And all the owner has to do is put a advertisement sign up. The Dome is encircled with them.

3. Now for the players. Could these guys have gone on to become cancer research doctors? I highly doubt it. After 20 years of Military serve I will have made roughly $1, 300,000.00. Not encluding my retirement pay.
I say that to say this. If Anthony Hargrove were to have a career ending injury what does he have to fall back on? Now I know you may be thinking, "That is the choice he made for a career and he just has to deal with it." Well, didn't we as fan, when these players were in high school and college "Demand the best out of these players?". I know I did. I do from my daughter in softball.

Look at how some of look at Reggie. We want Reggie to perform at his best and to perform for the money he is making. Can that happen???? Probubly not.

I am getting off topic a little. Anyway, We as fans expect our team to get the best players. And these guys are the best. How many kids say they want to be a Pro football player, Basketball player or Baseball player? Darn near every one of them. My daughter wants to play for the Team USA Softball team. Will she reach it? I hope, but I doubt it.

These players put their lives on the line, to a certain degree. If their Pro careers are cut dramaticly short (1-2 years of playing time) due to an injury They have to start their life over. Find a job and they go into obscurity and are forgotten about. Even by other players and most of all, the NFL Corperation. (Which also makes BooKoo Billions off these players)

I know, I know. That is the chance these guys take. Right? Well, shouldn't they be compensated if the unthinkable happens? IMO, yes. I will tell you why.

4. If a I were to die as a Soldier. My wife and kids get insurance money, my retirement; and as a National Guard member; my wife can draw my monthly pay until she dies. As long as she remains a single widow.

Now, I volunteered to serve the Nation of ours. I wasn't forced. But do I or any other Soldier really deserve to be taken care of if I am seriously hurt or killed? IMO, hell yes! I and every other service member provide a service to the people of not only this Nation but other Nations as well and we should be taken care of for providing that service.

But are Pro athlete worth more than us? On a whole, no. But after they are exploted and have made billions of dollors for owners, major companies, sports agents and whoever else you want to add to that list. Shouldn't they get something in return?

Lets face it. The Dome doesn't get filled because people like help Tom Benson or any of the other sponsers make money. It gets fill because of Drew, Reggie, Vilma, Tracy, Darren, Vilma, Will, PT and the other players. Don't they desreve some of that money?

Just my thoughts on it. Hell, I maybe wrong.

No offense man and I am sorry to say this, but nothing annoys me more than hearing this same argument constantly. If it was as difficult to be any of those things you just named they would make more money or similar money, but it isn't. Unfortunately private industry is just that. I am not trying to pick on you, but I am sincerely sick of hearing this argument. It has no legitimate reasoning to it. If someone has private money and chooses to pay someone 30 million dollars to sweep his floors why would someone else ever have the right to dictate what that person does with the money they earned. You don't. It doesn't matter what spin you attempt to place on it- you simply do not own their money and therefor have no legitimate right to dictate what they do with it.

If you want to have that type of say than you have to go earn that type of money and than you can choose to spend your money in any matter you see fit.

I could care less what the players have going on with their contract and tend to agree that their all wealthy- but the simple fact is the owners OWN the team- they should be able to pay what they see fit, and if you as a player choose not to play for that, that is well within your right too. Unfortunately this country has set a dangerous precedent that somehow people who take on none of the rick that owners of companies do somehow have a right to a large portion of that persons earnings. I simply disagree. You are paid for your talent, and if you don't have much you are paid accordingly. It does not require much talent to be a policeman or fireman (I said nothing of the danger) and they are paid accordingly. Just like objects are generally more valuable due to how rare they are- the same goes with talent.

I honestly don't care who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Both sides could make the case that they deserve more money. Both sides can be accused of being greedy and delusional.

What I do know is that that players' show of solidarity rubbed me the wrong way. Making a symbolic solidarity gesture before the game turned me against the players. I do not care to side in all these fiscal squabbles because they seem ridiculous. Like fighting over who gets a bigger share of Boardwalk and Park Place while the folks in the stands live in row houses on Baltic Avenue. And now courting the support of the row house dwellers. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

So, players and owners, go fight it out on your own. What you earn is your business, not mine. And don't ask me to choose sides. I identify with the crisis of neither owners nor players; neither of your sides is in a fiscal crisis and have no idea what one is.

Well this has always been a failing of our society starting around the 20th century. Before that time entertainment was seen for what it is, a fun thing to watch but not that important.

Of course it takes more to be a police officer, detective,scientist,teacher,paramedic,doctor, military personnel, and etc.. than to be in the entertainment industry. Sports is just entertainment.

If you mess up in entertainment you can do a retake or you just lose a game.
With real life professions if you mess up you could get yourself or someone else killed. I would rather do a 4th and 20 then ever have to enter a domestic violence dispute as a police officer, be on a mission in Iraq, or be responsible for a car accident trying to save a persons crushed body as a paramedic.

What guys do in the NFL is great, and I love it, but if they didn't exist it really wouldn't make a difference.
If one doctor, cop, military etc.. person didn't exist then hundreds of other people lives would be effected.
When you pay an actor 20 million to play someone in the military or a teacher for 4 months of work, but pay the people who do that job, day in day out 30k you know theres a priority problem with society.
Do they deserve the money , of course not , its entertainment. Will it ever change, no of course not.

Players need to get as much money as they can and I dont fault them for doing so. They didnt create societies rules, as messed up as they are. Pay the man.

Really, how many players on each team multiplied by how many teams? People are paid what they are worth.

What does that matter? That, unless I am wrong, has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay them.

NFL players, and the NFL as a whole donate a lot of money, and time- they effect many lives. Many people owe their livings to the NFL, and this extends much further than the players and coaches. That is absurd statement that required little to no thought.

I apologize- who are you to determine whether they deserve the money or not- do you own the money? If someone else believes they are worth that and are willing to pay them it- they deserve it.

If you believe these things I challenge you to earn that type of money and pay teachers and police out of your pocket. Until that day they'll make what they deserve.

These are not rules. See this is your issue- you see this as rules of society. These are individual choices. The choices of an individual to pay money out of their pocket in an amount they see as fit. Society, as a whole, does not factor in any regard- other than to say clearly people are willing to shell this money out to the NFL instead of their community. That is their choice as individuals. Again- they own their money

I am not attacking you as a person, so please do not read more into my post than is there. I am completely attacking your ideology, but nothing more.

Top I agree- keep me out of it- handle it on your own.

Im gonna keep it simple ..ITS THE UNION! what do expect its a brotherhood..im in one..also the fans are caught in the middle ..and that sucks...

Oh I know, I just dont think your right, and have met a couple of people who think the way you do, and know that no debate on the subject is going to change your views on the subject. Im just posting what I think. Im not going to debate it.

You know man they use to be- now they are exactly what they are supposedly against. The people at the top of the unions are extremely wealthy while the people they represent and who pay their salaries are not. Nothing more than a scam now.

Private money.... Where did they get all that money? From the FANS. Yes they provided the initial investments, to build the team, but without the consumers, buying their products, they would be dead in the water.

Here's another question. Let's say the owners decide to lock the players out, and there is no season in 2011. What happens to season ticket holders? Will they still have to buy a season package? Or will they get to keep their seats, and start paying the next season? Or will it all start over from zero holders? I'm serious with that question, what will be the procedure on this?

No Problem man. It is okay for us to think differently, but one thing we agree on- GEAUX SAINTS!!!!

Private VS Public refers to (and I know you know this) independent of the Gov, or run by the gov.

The main difference is choice- people can choose to spend the money for this product (the NFL). If they do not want their product they won't buy it.

The Government forces you to buy their product. There is no choice.

Your other point though Saint Paul- I don't know what is going to happen if they lock out. They will all lose money- it will not be good for anyone

i want a salary cap on the owners not the players.
i want a cap on the price of tickets.
i want a living wage paid to stadium employees.
i want all nfl uniforms gear and memorabilia to be made in the usa.
i want to to not look at ads in the stadium.
i want them to sell only local beer at the stadium.
i want them to sell only local snacks at the stadium.
i want the nfl owners to donate more to local investments.
i want them to buy their own stadium.

then i would be able to care less what the players make.


The nfl is our national past time.
i think they should start acting as such.

My point was, that as fans, who support these organizations, with our money, we do have a right to our opinions on these matters. The majority of the money spent on players, stadiums, and etc, comes from the purchases made by us, the fans. Now, once I spend it, I reallize it isn't mine anymore. But at the same time, if I buy a television, and it doesn't work, you better believe I'm gonna want my money back. Billionaires, or not, without the fans, these franchises would fall flat on their butts, and they know that.

Curious wants

sure you can have an opinion, and you can keep from spending money, as well as watching games. if enough people do that- it will have an impact.

they're just not going to listen to you when it comes to their pay roll

I don't agree with this either. When fans get fed up with coaches, and players, if they raise enough hell, management eventually gets the message, and makes a change. I'm not saying they are going to call us to see who we should, and shouldn't sign, but the fans have alot more influence than you seem to acknowledge.

The players' use of an NFL game with a captive audience to air their salary agenda is a violation of ethics, plain and simple. People shell out bucks to be entertained, not to be manipulated into rubber stamping players' debatable plea for a more favorable contract. It makes no difference whether the players' cause has merit or not. The fact that they are using an entertainment forum to plead their personal cause is way out of line.

A gentleman posted on this thread previously that he is a teacher. Awesome. If you, sir, were to use your classroom as a forum to air your personal grievances or causes, you should rightly expect to get your south side chewed by your school administrators. Or be fired. And rightfully so. You are being paid to teach, not to appeal for support of your personal causes AT WORK. The same is true for all of us. And the same is true for NFL players. Fans are paying to be entertained by them, not to support their quest for more money. Or whatever they want more of.

If players want better contracts, great. They should go seek them on their own time. But they should not use an NFL game that people pay to see as a forum to explicitly forward their cause.

I don't care about NFL labor disputes. And I object to way in which NFL players are going about seeking my support in their dispute. It is unethical, it is manipulative, and it pizzes me off.

I think that was the point though top. The players KNOW, that without them, the owners are dead in the water. Like it or not, pay or no pay, they have the upper hand. Players get locked out, owners get scrubs, fans don't watch, players win. That's just the way it is.

You may be right for many people, but not for me. If players press this agenda to the point of a lockout, I would drop NFL football altogether. I don't need its addictive rush that badly.

Ok, if the lock out occurs, it will be the owners that do it, not the players. Basically, if I understand it all correctly, if the players don't agree, to the new bargaining agreement, by a certain date, then the owners will lock them out. Not a strike persay. A forced strike is more like it.