Will we have a new HC?
 

Canucksaint,
Nobody here hates the Saints. Some of us are just looking for one big change that will result in success (i.e. change coaches or QB\'s). My opinion is that a lot of little changes would make the difference (a few key players start doing some things better, some changes in play-calling, etc.), but NOBODY knows how to make that happen. If some coach/GM had that kind of ability, that coach/GM\'s team would be in the playoffs every year.

On to the subject of underachieving. Last year, we saw the Saints consistently play to the level of their opponents. That tells you that when they weren\'t beating Tampa, Pittsburgh, Green Bay, and other future playoff teams, they were underachieving. Or were they overachieving in those big victories last year? Either way, it would be nice to see the team rising to the same level nearly every week, as champions do. Can the coach make that happen on his own? If you think so, then Haslett should be blamed for the team\'s inconsistency. If you don\'t think so, then you have to think we need more leadership from the players, as demonstrated by Ray Lewis, Steve McNair, or any number of players on other teams. I don\'t believe the coach can do it on his own.

We don\'t need to fire Haslett; we need a leader to step up from among the players. I hear Deuce has been doing that lately; I hope it\'s true and will continue.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Sorry Canucksaint,
That should have been addressed to saintfan. My bad. :(

Will we have a new HC?
 

Don\'t we all?

I liken this argument to a sales manager position. If a sales rep underachieves, he gets his ass canned. If a sales team underachieves, the sales manager gets his ass canned, because he is in charge of the team. Is that real hard to understand? Joe Horn may have dropped some passes, and if he were the only one, I would have him benched. But the \"dropped passes\" seem to be a trend amongst almost everyone on the team...see where I\'m going?











you\'re, not your

[Edited on 10/11/2003 by BlackandBlue]

Will we have a new HC?
 

Exactly !! You see it. I see it. And, anyone that is willing to look at the truth can see it. It\'s called an AGENDA. Which is the reason I agree with saintfan, that it\'s a damn good thing the fans don\'t make these decisions.

The FACT is that Mueller is responsible for about 75% of the players on this current roster. So , be sure that you are calling for Mueller to never be a GM in this league again, if you want to be fair. And don\'t forget that it was Mueller that hired Haslett.

Mike Holmgren would have damn sure been fired from the Seahawks job using the same criteria that is being used for Haslett. Does this make Holgren a bad coach? Of course not !! It just mean that the plan just didn\'t go exactly like the FANS wanted it to. Which is exacly the reason the owner of the Seahawks didn\'t listen to the fans last year and fire Holmgren.

I think everytime someone on here calls for Haslett to be fired it should be followed with the fact that none of you are qualified to be making that statement. Oh, and I\'ve already admitted I\'m not. :mad:

Will we have a new HC?
 

If you want to stiffle contradictory opinions, just email Halo a list of people you think should be banned from the site, and save yourself the headache.

Will we have a new HC?
 

How you managed to come up with that statement from what I posted, I have no idea. I\'m just stating the facts. I liken it to an auto machenic calling for a sales rep. to be fired.
Of course B&B maybe you might be qualified to be a GM. I don\'t know.

I don\'t care if everyone on here is calling for Haslett to be fired. As far as I\'m concerned, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I enjoy reading EVERYONE of them.

Will we have a new HC?
 

If the only thing you can safely corrrect about a post is a typo (ala Saintz08) then why bother? Keep drinkin\' that 08er-aid bandb...sooner or later it\'ll be your downfall.

;)

Will we have a new HC?
 

I don\'t want to stifle (that\'s with ONE \"F\" and not two ;) ) anyone\'s opinion. My only hope is to point out over zealous short-sighted ones.

:P

Will we have a new HC?
 

How long did it take you to comb over my posts until you found that one?

Webster\'s called, it wants the 3rd \"R\" you used in \"correct\" back.

This is fun, let\'s try some others.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Actually BandB, I saw it right away...just returning the favor.

Unfortunately, there\'s only so much I can do. The rest is up to you.

;)

Will we have a new HC?
 

...and knowing is half the battle.

;)

P.S. To all those involved, if I seem to be a bit on edge, I quit smoking, so F all of yah (j/k) :P

Will we have a new HC?
 

Man, Saintfan and Billy would have us believe that the problem with the Saints is the players. Right, Deuce, Horn, your beloved Brooks, Bentley, Gandy, Conwell, Grant, Sullivan, Whitehead, Green, etc. etc. etc. they\'re all playing terribly and poor Haslett has to suffer b/c of it. Oops, who hired them? Meuller and Loomis right? They just pick whatever players they like and Jim just has to deal with it right?

Bottom line - these are the players HASLETT wanted. If they\'re playing poorly, it\'s his fault for going after them, or not being able to inspire them, or get their heads on straight. And YES, it is HIS fault. You see any of Parcell\'s boys underacheiving? How about Fox\'s? Vermeil\'s? Bellicheck\'s?

Yes, every team and every coach has ups and downs. Our ups make us 9-7 and one game out of the playoffs or 4-5 after 9 games... whoopee!! The amazing thing about all of this is how Billy and Saintfan tell you certain things will NEVER happen, and when they do, well it\'s OK. Billy said the Saints would be 12-4. I said 8-8 or 7-9 and I got BASHED. Where do they sit after nine games? On pace for 7-9 or 8-8. This was unfathomable to those two 10 weeks ago, but when it happens, everyone gets a pass.

Here\'s a little food for thought. What did the Saints need coming into this off-season? A couple of solid DTs, a big-play MLB, a shut-down corner, a safety to replace Knight, a TE, and a backup RB. What will we need going into this off-season? A DT, a big-play MLB, a shut-down corner, a safety to replace T-sucky, and a back-up RB. Amazing. So basically the FIFTH most money under the cap netted us, uh, nothing. Congrats to Loomis and Haslett.

The bottom line here guys, is that a few people on this board fell in love with Haslett and Brooks in a story-book season they had in 2000. Now, they can\'t get past that to see the reality of the situation.

Saintfan, who don\'t I want to fire? The entire offense (that includes Brooks), the D-line, Lewis, Gleason, and McAffee. I want a new coach and especially new coordinators, and I want to revamp the LBs and secondary. That obviosly is a bad idea to you. B/c what we\'re doing right now is clearly working right?

And yes BnB - something like 1 out of the 6 teams with the leagues best runningbacks made the playoffs last season.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Congrats B&B hang in there on the not smoking. It\'s been 7 months for me now. I had a beer the other night and didn\'t even think about a cigarette. Might have been that naked lady with me had something to do with it though? LOL. :P

Will we have a new HC?
 

Then you should be in a great mood - :P Now how \'bout getting my old screen name back for me?

Will we have a new HC?
 

EDIT:

Teams with top 5 rushers that made the playoffs last season: 0
Teams with top 10 rushers that made the playoffs last season: 1

Teams with top 5 defenses that made the playoffs last season: 2
Teams with top 10 defenses that made the playoffs last season: 5

And one for fun - 4 of the 6 teams with QBs with the highest Passer Rating made the playoffs last season.

Want to revise your statement Billy?

Will we have a new HC?
 

Joe - PLEASE make him a rookie!!! Please! :)

Will we have a new HC?
 

No I do not. There is no doubt in my mind that throughout history that teams with good running backs have made the playoffs more than poor rushing teams. You know it. I know it and ANYONE who knows anything about football knows it. Would you like to admit I\'m right now or would you like to disagree? Where ya at Dat?

Will we have a new HC?
 

WhoDat -- Just for fun. Tell me how many of these superbowl teams did not have a great running back??



Super Bowl Boxscores



Game Date Result
XXXVII Jan. 26, 2003 Tampa Bay 48, Oakland 21
XXXVI Feb. 3, 2002 New England 20, St. Louis 17
XXXV Jan. 28, 2001 Baltimore 34, N.Y. Giants 7
XXXIV Jan. 30, 2000 St. Louis 23, Tennessee 16
XXXIII Jan. 31, 1999 Denver 34, Atlanta 19
XXXII Jan. 25, 1998 Denver 31, Green Bay 24
XXXI Jan. 26, 1997 Green Bay 35, New England 21
XXX Jan. 28, 1996 Dallas 27, Pittsburgh 17
XXIX Jan. 29, 1995 San Francisco 49, San Diego 26
XXVIII Jan. 30, 1994 Dallas 30, Buffalo 13
XXVII Jan. 31, 1993 Dallas 52, Buffalo 17
XXVI Jan. 26, 1992 Washington 37, Buffalo 24
XXV Jan. 27, 1991 N.Y. Giants 20, Buffalo 19
XXIV Jan. 28, 1990 San Francisco 55, Denver 10
XXIII Jan. 22, 1989 San Francisco 20, Cincinnati 16
XXII Jan. 31, 1988 Washington 42, Denver 10
XXI Jan. 25, 1987 N.Y. Giants 39, Denver 20
XX Jan. 26, 1986 Chicago 46, New England 10
XIX Jan. 20, 1985 San Francisco 38, Miami 16
XVIII Jan. 22, 1984 L.A. Raiders 38, Washington 9
XVII Jan. 30, 1983 Washington 27, Miami 17
XVI Jan. 24, 1982 San Francisco 26, Cincinnati 21
XV Jan. 25, 1981 Oakland 27, Philadelphia 10
XIV Jan. 20, 1980 Pittsburgh 31, L.A. Rams 19
XIII Jan. 21, 1979 Pittsburgh 35, Dallas 31
XII Jan. 15, 1978 Dallas 27, Denver 10
XI Jan. 9, 1977 Oakland 32, Minnesota 14
X Jan. 18, 1976 Pittsburgh 21, Dallas 17
IX Jan. 12, 1975 Pittsburgh 16, Minnesota 6
VIII Jan. 13, 1974 Miami 24, Minnesota 7
VII Jan. 14, 1973 Miami 14, Washington 7
VI Jan. 16, 1972 Dallas 24, Miami 3
V Jan. 17, 1971 Baltimore 16, Dallas 13
IV Jan. 11, 1970 Kansas City 23, Minnesota 7
III Jan. 12, 1969 N.Y. Jets 16, Baltimore 7
II Jan. 14, 1968 Green Bay 33, Oakland 14
I Jan. 15, 1967 Green Bay 35, Kansas City 10

Will we have a new HC?
 

Billy still thinks it\'s 1967 apparently. How about we look at the last five years?

Tampa and Oakland - None.
New England and St. Louis - One. Faulk.
Baltimore and the Giants - tough call. Neither of these RBs are great and neither had great seasons that year.
St. Louis and Tennessee - Faulk and George were both awesome that season. Two.
Denver and Atlanta - TD and Jamal. Both great that year. Two.

So of the last ten SB teams, half had great running games. 7 of those teams had serious passing games Billy.

In any case, this is a ridiculous argument. Obviously a great RB and defense are big part of great teams throughout NFL history. So what is your excuse for the defense? Look at the players Jim has brought in on that side of the ball. Grant and Howard are studs. Sullivan can be. How about Ruff? Smith? Hodge? Allen? They RUINED Clemons. How about the secondary? Carter, Thomas, Ambrose, Craver, Fahkir Brown?!?! Yeah, all-stars. Safety - T-sucky - the biggest bust in the NFL this season, Bellamy, Mitchell, Green. Again. All-stars. How many big defensive players did we sign this off-season? 4: Jones, Rodgers, Ruff, and Ambrose. How many have paid off? Rodgers and maybe Ruff? We all consider Haslett and Co. to be great in the draft. There are three players from the last two drafts making any difference. Bentley, Grant, and Sullivan. Stallworth has been mediocre at best. Have any of the others even seen the field?

So with all this money, all these draft picks, and a solid offense (and a great RB - half the formula in Billy-land), the Saints added Rodgers, Sullivan and.... uh.... <crickets chirping>... who?

Bottom line - you cannot argue with results. So far Haslett\'s been able to get to the playoffs 33% of the time. If he fails this season that drops to 25%. With this team, that is unacceptible. Billy calls me the most pessimistic person in the world, but when the Saints play so poorly it makes me look right on or even optimistic, it\'s all OK. I hope everyone else can see this as clearly as I can.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Which is what I said to begin with. You could have agreed and we could have moved right on along - ;) I have already said that Haslett has underachieved. I don\'t have an agenda here and I am not trying to make anything up to support Haslett. I just don\'t put as much blame on Haslett as some of you do. I can show you a bunch of very good coaches in the NFL right now who have simular or worse records than Haslett over a 4-year period and I bet you wouldn\'t want them fired. You would start saying \"yeah but.\"

Mike Shanahan
Head Coach

| 2000 den | 11 5 0 | 0 1 |
| 2001 den | 8 8 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 den | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 den | 5 4 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+
| TOTALS | 94 63 0 | 7 2 |

Does Shanahan get a free pass??


[Edited on 11/11/2003 by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs-]

Will we have a new HC?
 

Show them to me.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Mike Shanahan
Head Coach

| 2000 den | 11 5 0 | 0 1 |
| 2001 den | 8 8 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 den | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 den | 5 4 0 | 0 0 |
+----------+--------------+----------+

Let\'s start with this one. Don\'t be giving me none of this stuff about he\'s won the superbowl before. If that\'s the case, we should have kept Ditka. Does Shanahan get a free pass. He\'s got his players and it\'s fault!! Right???

Will we have a new HC?
 

Possibly, b/c he won two Super Bowls FOR THAT TEAM - not for another team 20 years ago... but without a playoff appearence this year, I\'m not sure I\'d give him a pass. Especially with the incredible O-lines and RBs they\'ve had. I\'ve said that for a while. They should be better, and if I\'m making the call, yeah, he\'s on the hot seat a little bit. His TWO SUPER BOWLS will probably get him another year though. In Billy-land they\'d get him 20 more years, so, maybe one from WhoDat ain\'t bad.

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by WhoDat]

Will we have a new HC?
 

And PS - they\'ve had a great O-line and RBs, but average QBs and WRs. Not nearly what the Saints have had... so they\'ve done the same with less. Next...

Will we have a new HC?
 

In my opinion, Mike Shanahan is one of the best coaches in the league. If he get\'s fired he wouldn\'t be without a job long. He is a perfect example of what I\'ve been trying to tell you \"fire eveyone\" guys. You keep wanting to point to the Bill Parcells of the world and it\'s not a valid argument in my mind. It\'s more than coaching and if I buy into all the arguements that you have been giving to fire Haslett, then I\'m to assume that Shanahan suddenly became a terrible coach.

Will we have a new HC?
 

That\'s no excuse. Who is responsible for getting those players WhoDat? Huh? Why do they have less? Who\'s fault is that? See, you are doing exacty what I said you woud do. MAKE EXCUSES!!

Will we have a new HC?
 

I think that the two main issues we\'re dealing with here are patience and accountability. The fans see talent and the potential for a high-scoring offense (which we got a glimpse of at the beginning of last seaon). This year, regardless of the reasons, the strength of this team is not performing to their potential.

Couple this with the fact that fans have witnessed the rags to riches stories of the Rams, the Ravens and the Patriots in recent Superbowls.

How do we find a medium between the two? How are fans supposed to be patient yet still hold coaches (and owners) accountable for teams that don\'t live up to expectations (or the hype used to sell tickets)?

Will we have a new HC?
 

There is one MAJOR difference Billy. Shanahan has PROVEN he is a good coach by putting good teams on the field consecutively for a decent period of time. He also won two Super Bowls during that period. Haslett has proven that he can revamp a team every year and the results won\'t change. He\'s proven he can\'t get a team to play in December. He is getting great at stuttering about not knowing what is going wrong. I\'ll give him that.

Will we have a new HC?
 

How much longer does Shanahan get? How long does his past performance buy him? Looks to me like like once Elway and Terrell Davis left that Shanahan isn\'t a good coach. Yet, you want to keep giviing him more chances. He\'s had long enough. I\'m tired of waiting on another John Elway to arrive. Shanahan must be fired!!

Will we have a new HC?
 

Can\'t argue with you there Billy. Maybe the man needs a change of scenery and the Broncos need new blood. Like I said earlier, he\'s on the fence for me. If he makes the playoff he stays, if not, I wouldn\'t scoff at him being fired. Just like Haslett, it won\'t happen, but it wouldn\'t hurt my feelings.

Will we have a new HC?
 

PS - got any more stellar examples other than Shanahan? Or is that the only guy you have to compare to Haslett?

Will we have a new HC?
 

I give you this WhoDat. You are very consistant. You are a man of your word and stick to the same criteria no matter who it is. But, you make a brotha work for everything.. :)

P.S. -- Look dude, I had to work hard to find Shanahan.

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs-]

Will we have a new HC?
 

How about Gruden, who took his team to a new level in his first year (a la Haslett), then turned them into a bunch of underachievers in his second year. He should probably be fired too. ;)

The NFL is full of great coaches who aren\'t winning consistently, and mediocre coaches who win. Look at Dick Jauron. Two years ago: 13-3. Last year: 4-12 with mostly the same players. Performance is not as strongly correlated to ability as most people think.

How about Bill Callahan? In the Super Bowl last year, now 2-7 or thereabouts. Sure you can make excuses for Jauron and Callahan (i.e. injuries), but Haslett has had injuries too, and plenty of them. You can\'t blame him for all the team\'s failures any more than you could give him all the credit for the team\'s successes. I understand he\'s ulimately accountable for the team\'s performance, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s always under his control.

The decision whether to keep or fire a coach should not be based solely on performance. Team management has to look at how well the coach led his team given the circumstances and talent available.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Billy, sometimes I love ya. You just put the last nail in your own coffin on this one hombre. You had to work real hard to find another coach who has underachieved as much as Haslett. That says it all. The only other guy I think is in a similar boat is Wannstedt, and he is clearly on the hot seat. He\'ll get a foot in the a$$ if the Dolphins don\'t make the playoffs this year, and he should.

Gregg Williams in Buffalo is in some trouble too. Another bad year from Cowher and he\'ll be gone. Spurrier is on the hot seat after just one and a half seasons. Dan Reeves could be in trouble and his team went to the playoffs last season. What I\'m talking about here is not some anomoly that only happens in New Orleans. We\'re not ungrateful fans or any more demanding than any other team\'s fans. This is the standard in the NFL.

I bet you didn\'t notice that Marc Bulger, a guy who is playing like a top five QB right now on a team that is now 6-3 and that was winning, got booed last night by his home town fans. They cheered for him on the next play. That is the NFL. Sorry man, but you should get used to it. ;) Did you get that Who-Tang yet?

Will we have a new HC?
 

Sorry Billy, can\'t help you with the name thing. That\'s up to Halo or the new guy they brought in to moderate. Guess you need to talk to one of them.

Will we have a new HC?
 

Hey Rich. I thougt that was a very good post. That\'s exactly the way I feel. I can see where WhoDat and the others are coming from though. It just seems to me that when it\'s time for a coach to be fired that is it more obvious than the situation with Haslett. Usually the players will start to speak out against the coach and just the opposite is happening now. It\'s no small feat to keep the troops in line when faced with the adversity they have had. To me, that is a sure sign of a good leader.

Will we have a new HC?
 

OK. I\'m glad you got you some anyway- :D And who is this coldfusion guy? Nevermind, I don\'t even want to go there -- ;)

Will we have a new HC?
 

I\'m glad that you brought up Jauron and Callahan. If those are your poster boys then you\'re in trouble b/c BOTH will be out of jobs after this season. So you\'re arguing to keep Haslett by citing coaches who are both going to get fired. Great job.

Let\'s consider these two guys. Jauron was 13-3 in the last year before realignment. That\'s when playing a last place schedule still meant something, and that\'s exactly what he did. Look at the three SBs before that year and you\'ll see a worst to first in just about all of them I think. Plus, that team won 4 games on hail marys, int run backs in OT, and all kinds of other BS. They were in essence a 9-7 team playing a last place schedule that got extraordinarily lucky. I live in Chicago. I saw it first hand. Let me tell you, I made a LOT of money betting that they wouldn\'t make it to .500 in the next year. I\'m making a lot of money this year again. Jauron will get fired, and he deserves to. He is not a good head coach.

Callahan went to the Super Bowl with a team that GRUDEN handed him on a silver platter. He didn\'t change a thing - coordinators, players, etc. were all the same. And look at what happens when he got to the Super Bowl and had to try to outcoach a guy who knew the scheme. They got DESTROYED. Then, in the off-season, Callahan feels that the NFL has caught up with the system that Gruden left him and so he changes everything. How\'s that working out again? He has completely lost that team, they are terrible, and he will be gone after this season.

How can you even try to argue with those two guys?

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by WhoDat]

Will we have a new HC?
 

Can I please get the OWNED picture in this thread? BnB?

Will we have a new HC?
 

Well Rich. This is a fine mess you\'ve gotten us into. I now change my opinion on your post. You are on your on buddy -- ;)