GATORMAN RULES

lumm0x · 12-04-2003, 09:21 AM

I find it very strange that two of my earlier posts in this thread before we got into it about turnovers, etc. were very welcomed by Billy and when I disagree with an issue I need to get \"my backwards Canuck a$$ straight\". I\'ll pass along the same message to you as I did to Saintsfan....I\'ll be sure to PM you before I post to authorize the content of my messages.

I say all this tongue in cheek as well Billy. No offense taken by me as well.

I\'d really like you to explain how you are right?
And just for your amusement I\'ll post actual statements made in your\'s and WhoDat\'s posts so that I\'m only posting...

what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said?

Billy-started the ball about penalties

I\'ll bet ya that these teams with the most penalties have inconsistant offenses that are faced with long yardage situations because if penalties. Stats do lie a lot of times but the stats on penalties don\'t lie. Some teams might overcome them better than others, but not many....

WhoDat-started the ball about turnovers

AB has 15 turnovers. Please provide me with proof of 15 drive stalling f-ups by the other 10 players on offense. This should be VERY easy given our offense\'s play, and is step one of your little proof. Go ahead. You told me that I have blinders on, that I\'m short-sighted, and wrong. Obviously, you see the big picture where I do not, so go ahead a straighten me right out. Show me why I\'m wrong. Can you even do this? If not, then you have no business making such bold statements... unless... oh, I see. You\'re a comedian. I get it now.

Billy-quoted 2+ mistakes per individual

Hell, is that all I have to do to make you finally get you to admit you\'re wrong? How about the 2 -TD passes that Joe Horn has dropped. The 2 fumbles Deuce had against the Falcons. The 78 penalties that the offense has. All the dropped passes by Stallworth. The dropped passes by Conwell. The dropped passes by Paython. The missed blocks by the offensive linemen.

WhoDat-explains how turnovers unquestionably kill a drive

Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time.

Billy-tries to convince us the the drive is over already at 1st and 30

So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !!

WhoDat-tries again to explain that a turnover stops a drive and miscues that don\'t result in a turnover can be overcome

OK Billy, go back and count how many times we\'ve had a penalty during a series and picked up a first down. Then go back and count how many times Brooks has turned the ball over and we\'ve picked up a first down. I\'m guessing your results will look something like this:

miscues that didn\'t stop a drive: 150
Brooks turnovers that didn\'t stop a drive: 0

Billy-hits head hard on wall

quote:
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Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
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You can post till ya blue in the face and drink all the WhoTang ya want to, but you are wrong about the above statement. Feel free to step up to the plate WhoDat.

WhoDat-calls you out for agreeing with my re-wording of his post

I say that Brooks needs to take care of the ball better, I say he isn\'t very good at reading defenses, I say his touch needs to improve, I say he needs better pocket awareness and to be more decisive, I say he can\'t manage the game, I say he isn\'t a good enough leader, and I\'m a short-sided lunatic who clearly doesn\'t understand football and has an agenda - despite proving Billy wrong on just about every prediction he\'s made for the Saints this season. Lumm0x says these things and Billy AGREES. The agenda is clear Billy, it\'s yours against me.

Saintsfan-gets involved in the thread (much later than I may I add) saying dropped passes, missed blocks and penalties are drive stoppers (not can be-but are)

WhoDat-tries to explain logic to Saintsfan

My point was simple:

A. Turnovers stop drives. You cannot argue that.
B. Dropped passed, penalties, and missed blocks do not ALWAYS translate into a drive killers. They certainly HURT the drive, and they CAN kill a drive, but there are many many many times during an NFL season where a penalty, dropped pass, or missed block occurs during a drive and the team overcomes it. Honestly, if those things killed a drive without question, the way turnovers do, the Saints would probably have only scored one half, or maybe a third as many points this season as they actually have.

Lumm0x-tries to explain that a turnover is an unquestionable droive stopper, where the others are only possible drive stoppers

Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES.

Billy-lacks ability to read

The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go.

WhoDat- tries AGAIN

OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this:

1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably.

2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it?

Billy-disagrees....while agreeing

Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!!

Gator-tries as well

Turnovers (FUMBLE, INT, BLOCKED PUNT, ON DOWNS)=Drive ends

Penalty= Depends
Penatites=Depends, but more likely

Bad playcalling=Depends
Bad execution= Depends

Turnovers kill drives period, all the rest depend but are substantial factors that at times kill drives.

WhoDat-points out you have agreed with what was said all along

Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not.

Billy-backpedals behind doubletalk

Let me think about your statement(s) again??

Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \"

Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\"

Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that.

Lumm0x-tries again

We\'re not arguing that penalties, missed blocks and dropped balls can\'t kill drives. We are arguing that they do not always kill drives. Turnovers DO. Any if your opponent fumbles the ball and you get it back it\'s called a change of possession and begins a new drive. Turnovers DO.

Billy-shows how I am posting on a thread I haven\'t read yet

LummOx --

You didn\'t step into a normal arguement here. Nope !! You stepped into an arguement between myself and WhoDat. It\'s refreshing to have a new face like yours in the arguement, but UNDERSTAND that this is some serious stuff. I appreicate you educating me on how \"turnovers\" work, but you really need to read the WHOLE thread BEFORE posting.

WhoDat- since Billy chose to take a quote as an absolute WhoDat made it one

quote:
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Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
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Is that statement TRUE or FALSE? There is no in between. You have to look at that statement in the absolute. TRUE or FALSE?

Billy- Uses the same arguement to defend what he is attacking WhoDat over

You made the statement that drives are not drive stoppers and I told you they were. I never said or meant that they ALAWYS are. But, if that what it takes to make you feel like you are right.

Billy...I think you can agree I\'ve now read the thread.

You are attacking WhoDat for saying this:

Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.

You are inferring that he is making an absolute statement. You then said that they are drive stoppers, but suddenly never said they always are, and that we are inferring it.

Point-You are attacking a statement as being....not incorrect...but incomplete...and defending your position with a statement that is not incorrect....but incomplete. WhoDat, myself, Gator, etc...were trying to show that penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes are a grey area.....but turnovers are black. You\'re making it a black and white affair.

Billy-

If your going to get in these things you should really try sticking to the facts and how \'bout posting what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said? Works much better that way. Do they not do that in Canada?

I now have to pass a bylaw here in Canada that perception is a singular. There is only one way to percieve. Now I\'ll get my nose outta your business buddy.

12-04-2003, 09:21 AM	#24
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	GATORMAN RULES I find it very strange that two of my earlier posts in this thread before we got into it about turnovers, etc. were very welcomed by Billy and when I disagree with an issue I need to get \"my backwards Canuck a$$ straight\". I\'ll pass along the same message to you as I did to Saintsfan....I\'ll be sure to PM you before I post to authorize the content of my messages. I say all this tongue in cheek as well Billy. No offense taken by me as well. I\'d really like you to explain how you are right? And just for your amusement I\'ll post actual statements made in your\'s and WhoDat\'s posts so that I\'m only posting... what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said? Billy-started the ball about penalties I\'ll bet ya that these teams with the most penalties have inconsistant offenses that are faced with long yardage situations because if penalties. Stats do lie a lot of times but the stats on penalties don\'t lie. Some teams might overcome them better than others, but not many.... WhoDat-started the ball about turnovers AB has 15 turnovers. Please provide me with proof of 15 drive stalling f-ups by the other 10 players on offense. This should be VERY easy given our offense\'s play, and is step one of your little proof. Go ahead. You told me that I have blinders on, that I\'m short-sighted, and wrong. Obviously, you see the big picture where I do not, so go ahead a straighten me right out. Show me why I\'m wrong. Can you even do this? If not, then you have no business making such bold statements... unless... oh, I see. You\'re a comedian. I get it now. Billy-quoted 2+ mistakes per individual Hell, is that all I have to do to make you finally get you to admit you\'re wrong? How about the 2 -TD passes that Joe Horn has dropped. The 2 fumbles Deuce had against the Falcons. The 78 penalties that the offense has. All the dropped passes by Stallworth. The dropped passes by Conwell. The dropped passes by Paython. The missed blocks by the offensive linemen. WhoDat-explains how turnovers unquestionably kill a drive Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. Billy-tries to convince us the the drive is over already at 1st and 30 So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! WhoDat-tries again to explain that a turnover stops a drive and miscues that don\'t result in a turnover can be overcome OK Billy, go back and count how many times we\'ve had a penalty during a series and picked up a first down. Then go back and count how many times Brooks has turned the ball over and we\'ve picked up a first down. I\'m guessing your results will look something like this: miscues that didn\'t stop a drive: 150 Brooks turnovers that didn\'t stop a drive: 0 Billy-hits head hard on wall quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can post till ya blue in the face and drink all the WhoTang ya want to, but you are wrong about the above statement. Feel free to step up to the plate WhoDat. WhoDat-calls you out for agreeing with my re-wording of his post I say that Brooks needs to take care of the ball better, I say he isn\'t very good at reading defenses, I say his touch needs to improve, I say he needs better pocket awareness and to be more decisive, I say he can\'t manage the game, I say he isn\'t a good enough leader, and I\'m a short-sided lunatic who clearly doesn\'t understand football and has an agenda - despite proving Billy wrong on just about every prediction he\'s made for the Saints this season. Lumm0x says these things and Billy AGREES. The agenda is clear Billy, it\'s yours against me. Saintsfan-gets involved in the thread (much later than I may I add) saying dropped passes, missed blocks and penalties are drive stoppers (not can be-but are) WhoDat-tries to explain logic to Saintsfan My point was simple: A. Turnovers stop drives. You cannot argue that. B. Dropped passed, penalties, and missed blocks do not ALWAYS translate into a drive killers. They certainly HURT the drive, and they CAN kill a drive, but there are many many many times during an NFL season where a penalty, dropped pass, or missed block occurs during a drive and the team overcomes it. Honestly, if those things killed a drive without question, the way turnovers do, the Saints would probably have only scored one half, or maybe a third as many points this season as they actually have. Lumm0x-tries to explain that a turnover is an unquestionable droive stopper, where the others are only possible drive stoppers Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. Billy-lacks ability to read The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go. WhoDat- tries AGAIN OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this: 1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably. 2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it? Billy-disagrees....while agreeing Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!! Gator-tries as well Turnovers (FUMBLE, INT, BLOCKED PUNT, ON DOWNS)=Drive ends Penalty= Depends Penatites=Depends, but more likely Bad playcalling=Depends Bad execution= Depends Turnovers kill drives period, all the rest depend but are substantial factors that at times kill drives. WhoDat-points out you have agreed with what was said all along Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not. Billy-backpedals behind doubletalk Let me think about your statement(s) again?? Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \" Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\" Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that. Lumm0x-tries again We\'re not arguing that penalties, missed blocks and dropped balls can\'t kill drives. We are arguing that they do not always kill drives. Turnovers DO. Any if your opponent fumbles the ball and you get it back it\'s called a change of possession and begins a new drive. Turnovers DO. Billy-shows how I am posting on a thread I haven\'t read yet LummOx -- You didn\'t step into a normal arguement here. Nope !! You stepped into an arguement between myself and WhoDat. It\'s refreshing to have a new face like yours in the arguement, but UNDERSTAND that this is some serious stuff. I appreicate you educating me on how \"turnovers\" work, but you really need to read the WHOLE thread BEFORE posting. WhoDat- since Billy chose to take a quote as an absolute WhoDat made it one quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is that statement TRUE or FALSE? There is no in between. You have to look at that statement in the absolute. TRUE or FALSE? Billy- Uses the same arguement to defend what he is attacking WhoDat over You made the statement that drives are not drive stoppers and I told you they were. I never said or meant that they ALAWYS are. But, if that what it takes to make you feel like you are right. Billy...I think you can agree I\'ve now read the thread. You are attacking WhoDat for saying this: Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. You are inferring that he is making an absolute statement. You then said that they are drive stoppers, but suddenly never said they always are, and that we are inferring it. Point-You are attacking a statement as being....not incorrect...but incomplete...and defending your position with a statement that is not incorrect....but incomplete. WhoDat, myself, Gator, etc...were trying to show that penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes are a grey area.....but turnovers are black. You\'re making it a black and white affair. Billy- If your going to get in these things you should really try sticking to the facts and how \'bout posting what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said? Works much better that way. Do they not do that in Canada? I now have to pass a bylaw here in Canada that perception is a singular. There is only one way to percieve. Now I\'ll get my nose outta your business buddy.