Can I get a ruling?

WhoDat · 11-26-2003, 05:06 PM

Actually Billy, here is what I said:

\"Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. A couple of weeks back, Horn dropped a pass and Brooks went back to him the next play. We scored on that drive. Gardner\'s two drops on third down plays stop drives.

You see, when Brooks fumbles the ball and the other team recovers, the drive is over. A holding penalty on first and ten hurts, but doesn\'t necessarily end it. A holding call on 3rd and 8, or a dropped pass, well, those both pretty much end the drive.\"

Your Response:
\"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man this is like taking candy from a baby. So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! Actually I\'m sad -- For you -- I thought you understood the game of football better WhoDat. I was wrong again. \"

You classified EVERY dropped pass, missed block, or penalty as a DRIVE KILLER. That means the drive is OVER. If these CAN be overcome, then they\'re harmful, but not KILLERS. A false start on first down DOES NOT kill a drive. A dropped pass on 3rd down does. You said that is an incorrect statement. Members of this board will continue to side with me, and you probably still will not admit that you\'re wrong AGAIN. You\'ll try to slither out of your argument, twist it and turn it to make it look like that\'s not what you meant. In reality, it\'s EXACTLY what you meant, which shows me AGAIN that you are willing to argue anything, no matter how ridiculous, to prove AB is god.

pakowitz · 11-26-2003, 05:06 PM

well it depends actually, if it was first down and we had 2 holding calls and then it was 1st n 30 then i would say that we have more of a chance continuing the drive then if it was 3rd n 30

the point whodat is trying to make is that if we get a penalty on first down it is easier to overcome then if we got one on 3rd down, i wouldnt not classify the penalty on first down a drive killer, i would classify the one on 3rd down as a drive killer b/c it is much harder to overcome b/c u have only one down left to pick up the yardage needed

BillyC · 11-26-2003, 05:07 PM

08 -- Man you kill me. I agree with that some QB\'s are more likely to overcome those penalties than others, but even Elway isn\'t gonna keep the drive alive in most of those situations. But that\'s who I\'d want trying to make it. But, you are right that penalties do kill drives......

BillyC · 11-26-2003, 05:10 PM

If you want to get technical then yeah, you always have a prayer of making some ridiculos down and distance situation, but that arguement is silly. Penalties kill drives and WhoDat is WRONG.

Ask any coach if penalties kill drives. I bet a can find articles where many coaches have said that. Wanna bet WhoDat?

Y\'all must be bored.

BillyC · 11-26-2003, 05:42 PM

Gator I agree with you 100%. Brooks has killed drives, no doubt. I\'d be a fool to say he hasn\'t.

BillyC · 11-26-2003, 06:08 PM

Again I agree with you 100%. I agree with you on Brooks too. I\'m kind of down of Brooks, but he\'s not in this mess alone. I thought that was a very well thoughtout post. I\'ll leave you alone now and let you post without me commenting on it...

lumm0x · 11-26-2003, 07:02 PM

WhoDat/BnB....I got a new one for ya......no offense Billy....

BillyC · 11-26-2003, 07:09 PM

There\'s no offense taken LummOx. I\'m not overly sensitive. But, WhoDat said I had a chimp brain and then the pix

I got to go get a bannana --

BillytheSaint · 11-26-2003, 08:56 PM

The drive killers are the predictable plays called by McCarthey and Brooks \"half second\" hesitation and accuracy. Dropped passes, fumbles and INT\'s are obvious gaffs that are brought about by the opposing D being perfictly aware of the upcoming play. We rarely fool the opposition. That puts our players under extra pressure to out play the guy in front of him. There must be some guile employed to improve the odds of the play called being successful. Then there must be precise execution. All a coaches responsibility. Peroid.

BillyC · 11-27-2003, 11:29 AM

The whole reason this debate started between myself and WhoDat is he was trying to tell me that Brooks was to blame for the offensive not being productive. I on the other hand was trying to look at other reasons why the offense was struggling.

What\'s funny is that people often complain that Brooks is debated on this board too much. But, it certainly isn\'t me that starts post after post about Brooks. I bring up things like penalties killing drives, or dropped passes, or inconsistant pass blocking, or play calling, or anything other than Brooks and certain members always want to dismiss these things and say \" Yeah, but Brooks is most to blame.\"

Is Brooks most to blame for the offensive troubles? That\'s a fair question and one that many members have stated as fact. Let\'s look at that question. I\'m going to state nothing but the facts here.

2003 Aaron Brooks 59.2/ 2352/ 14/ 8 Fumbles = 9
2003 Jake Delhomme 57.0 /2163/ 11/ 11 Fumbles = 9
2003 Mark Bulger 63.2/ 2765/ 15/ 17 Fumbles = 5
2003 Tom Brady 58.6 /2651/13 /10 Fumbles = 10

Aaron Brooks has 8ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 17
Jake Delmomme has 11ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 20
Mark Bulger has 17ints and 5 fumbles for a total of 22
Tom Brady has 13ints and 10 fumbles for a total of 23

As you can see every QB on that list has a winning record but Aaron Brooks. Why is that? How is Aaron Brooks most to blame? WhoDat said because Brooks turns the ball over too much is the main reason we are losing. If it were that simple wouldn\'t all these QB\'s have losing record too?

What I\'ve been trying to say is we have many more problems than Aaron Brooks and he is not the main reason this team is struggling. He is part of it though.

WhoDat -- Would you like to explain to me how Brooks is stalling this offense and making this team lose? And then explain to me how the other QB\'s are not having the same effect on their teams? Brooks has less total int\'s and fumbles than the other QB\'s, so exactly how to you explain that? His completion percentage is right up there or better than the other QB\'s, so that can\'t be stalling drives. He\'s thown for more touchdowns than most of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. He\'s thrown for less interceptions than the rest of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. What were you trying to tell me again?

[Edited on 27/11/2003 by BillyC]

11-26-2003, 05:06 PM	#11
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Can I get a ruling? Actually Billy, here is what I said: \"Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. A couple of weeks back, Horn dropped a pass and Brooks went back to him the next play. We scored on that drive. Gardner\'s two drops on third down plays stop drives. You see, when Brooks fumbles the ball and the other team recovers, the drive is over. A holding penalty on first and ten hurts, but doesn\'t necessarily end it. A holding call on 3rd and 8, or a dropped pass, well, those both pretty much end the drive.\" Your Response: \"quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man this is like taking candy from a baby. So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! Actually I\'m sad -- For you -- I thought you understood the game of football better WhoDat. I was wrong again. \" You classified EVERY dropped pass, missed block, or penalty as a DRIVE KILLER. That means the drive is OVER. If these CAN be overcome, then they\'re harmful, but not KILLERS. A false start on first down DOES NOT kill a drive. A dropped pass on 3rd down does. You said that is an incorrect statement. Members of this board will continue to side with me, and you probably still will not admit that you\'re wrong AGAIN. You\'ll try to slither out of your argument, twist it and turn it to make it look like that\'s not what you meant. In reality, it\'s EXACTLY what you meant, which shows me AGAIN that you are willing to argue anything, no matter how ridiculous, to prove AB is god.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

11-26-2003, 05:06 PM	#12
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Can I get a ruling? well it depends actually, if it was first down and we had 2 holding calls and then it was 1st n 30 then i would say that we have more of a chance continuing the drive then if it was 3rd n 30 the point whodat is trying to make is that if we get a penalty on first down it is easier to overcome then if we got one on 3rd down, i wouldnt not classify the penalty on first down a drive killer, i would classify the one on 3rd down as a drive killer b/c it is much harder to overcome b/c u have only one down left to pick up the yardage needed
	I Live In Beastmode!

11-26-2003, 05:07 PM	#13
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? 08 -- Man you kill me. I agree with that some QB\'s are more likely to overcome those penalties than others, but even Elway isn\'t gonna keep the drive alive in most of those situations. But that\'s who I\'d want trying to make it. But, you are right that penalties do kill drives......
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

11-26-2003, 05:10 PM	#14
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? If you want to get technical then yeah, you always have a prayer of making some ridiculos down and distance situation, but that arguement is silly. Penalties kill drives and WhoDat is WRONG. Ask any coach if penalties kill drives. I bet a can find articles where many coaches have said that. Wanna bet WhoDat? Y\'all must be bored.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

11-26-2003, 05:42 PM	#15
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? Gator I agree with you 100%. Brooks has killed drives, no doubt. I\'d be a fool to say he hasn\'t.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

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11-26-2003, 06:08 PM	#16
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? Again I agree with you 100%. I agree with you on Brooks too. I\'m kind of down of Brooks, but he\'s not in this mess alone. I thought that was a very well thoughtout post. I\'ll leave you alone now and let you post without me commenting on it...
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

11-26-2003, 07:02 PM	#17
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Can I get a ruling? WhoDat/BnB....I got a new one for ya......no offense Billy....

11-26-2003, 07:09 PM	#18
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? There\'s no offense taken LummOx. I\'m not overly sensitive. But, WhoDat said I had a chimp brain and then the pix I got to go get a bannana --
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

11-26-2003, 08:56 PM	#19
BillytheSaint Rookie Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 19	Can I get a ruling? The drive killers are the predictable plays called by McCarthey and Brooks \"half second\" hesitation and accuracy. Dropped passes, fumbles and INT\'s are obvious gaffs that are brought about by the opposing D being perfictly aware of the upcoming play. We rarely fool the opposition. That puts our players under extra pressure to out play the guy in front of him. There must be some guile employed to improve the odds of the play called being successful. Then there must be precise execution. All a coaches responsibility. Peroid.
BillytheSaint Rookie Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 19

11-27-2003, 11:29 AM	#20
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Can I get a ruling? The whole reason this debate started between myself and WhoDat is he was trying to tell me that Brooks was to blame for the offensive not being productive. I on the other hand was trying to look at other reasons why the offense was struggling. What\'s funny is that people often complain that Brooks is debated on this board too much. But, it certainly isn\'t me that starts post after post about Brooks. I bring up things like penalties killing drives, or dropped passes, or inconsistant pass blocking, or play calling, or anything other than Brooks and certain members always want to dismiss these things and say \" Yeah, but Brooks is most to blame.\" Is Brooks most to blame for the offensive troubles? That\'s a fair question and one that many members have stated as fact. Let\'s look at that question. I\'m going to state nothing but the facts here. 2003 Aaron Brooks 59.2/ 2352/ 14/ 8 Fumbles = 9 2003 Jake Delhomme 57.0 /2163/ 11/ 11 Fumbles = 9 2003 Mark Bulger 63.2/ 2765/ 15/ 17 Fumbles = 5 2003 Tom Brady 58.6 /2651/13 /10 Fumbles = 10 Aaron Brooks has 8ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 17 Jake Delmomme has 11ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 20 Mark Bulger has 17ints and 5 fumbles for a total of 22 Tom Brady has 13ints and 10 fumbles for a total of 23 As you can see every QB on that list has a winning record but Aaron Brooks. Why is that? How is Aaron Brooks most to blame? WhoDat said because Brooks turns the ball over too much is the main reason we are losing. If it were that simple wouldn\'t all these QB\'s have losing record too? What I\'ve been trying to say is we have many more problems than Aaron Brooks and he is not the main reason this team is struggling. He is part of it though. WhoDat -- Would you like to explain to me how Brooks is stalling this offense and making this team lose? And then explain to me how the other QB\'s are not having the same effect on their teams? Brooks has less total int\'s and fumbles than the other QB\'s, so exactly how to you explain that? His completion percentage is right up there or better than the other QB\'s, so that can\'t be stalling drives. He\'s thown for more touchdowns than most of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. He\'s thrown for less interceptions than the rest of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. What were you trying to tell me again? [Edited on 27/11/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842