Ok . You guys win.

BillyC · 12-10-2003, 12:35 PM

Now, look around. You\'re beginning to sound a bit like the Iraqi defense minister. I mean, there\'s no one left that thinks the way you do. You\'ve refused to change your views and those view now appear diluted. (I\'m not saying that they are I\'m saying people feel that way).

I mean, after the Tampa game the first post I saw on this board was you talking about how poorly Brooks had played and how he cost us the game. The next post was the usual Billy talk about how everyone else screwed up just as much and Brooks isn\'t really the problem. How can that be? Man, you don\'t want people coming after you, well don\'t give them a reason to. I\'m not telling you to toe my line, or the line of anyone else on the board, but unwillingness to change despite every good reason to, well, I go back to the Iraqi defense minister analogy.

Clearly Books has been to blame in 2 of the losses. I\'ve said that several times. Clearly Brooks has a fumbling problem this year and I have said that also. How many times do I have to say it? I\'ve said Haslett needs to go. How many times do I have to say that. All most of you do is post the same thing over and over. I have brought up very FAIR comparisons to other QB\'s. It is relevant and I\'m not and never did say that Brooks was the caliber of QB\'s of those guys. I just was trying to make a point that other QB\'s have endured simualr problems and went on to do fine.

Fact is that when I say ANYTHING guy like you go around saying I can\'t or won\'t admit the shortcomings of this team. When in reality I have done so many times. Bashing is completely the \"IN THING\" on this board and I do not agree with many things that are posted here. Sure, give up on Brooks, Tebucky, and whoever else you want to. Bash away, day after day. God forbid someone says it ain\'t time to give up on this guys yet and makes fair comparisons to other players. I have said in the past that some wrote this team off too quickly and they did. Just because the Saints probably aren\'t going to the playoffs did not make you writing the team off right. If you want to keep saying that I\'ve been wrong. Fine. I have no problem admitting my prediction about this team was wrong. I think you said your prediction about the last year was wrong. Frankly, I\'m tired of having to defend myself when I know I\'m bringing up very valid points only to have to get on a personal level with most folks.

BrooksMustGo · 12-10-2003, 12:49 PM

Bill brings a valuable perspective to this board.

I\'m not exactly sure if Bill is a Saints fan or a Brooks fan sometimes. And suffice it to say, that I typically disagree with his confidence in Brooks. But I would have to confess that in light of all the player turnover for the past 4 years, I\'d like to go ahead and make one more big trade.

I honestly believe that Aaron Brooks could be our Herschel Walker. I think we can get far more out of him that helps us down the road than we\'re getting from him right now. I don\'t think Brooks takes us to the superbowl. Now if we trade him and next season San Diego goes to the superbowl then I sure hope we got something good to show for it. But I think that is highly unlikely unless Brooks becomes an entirely new person after getting traded.

I for one disagree with cutting Brooks. That would be dumb. We should be able to get good value for him. I disagree with benching Brooks. We bench him, then he doesn\'t get to pad his stats and it raises questions about how little a team would have to offer us to get him in a trade. No, I think play him as the starter and give a team like the Chargers, Cardinals, etc a chance to trade down and pay through the nose for him.

I don\'t think Brooks will ever be a great player in New Orleans. There is no middle ground among fans on him. People either love him or detest him. But I do think that freeing up some cap space for a great free agent or two, drafting a qb to learn behind someone like Brunnell and a couple of years puts this organization in the nfc championship game at the least.

I think that\'s a huge benefit for a nominal (8-8) cost. I say jump on it while he is still young enough to generate that sort of trade interest. If he hangs around another 3 years, then he\'ll be 31 with 3 more lackluster seasons behind him. I don\'t see another team being willing to break the bank on a 31 year old lackluster qb. But now I think that some team would. I think we should strike while the iron is hot.

I\'d also like to clear up that I never thought the answer for this team was Jake Delhomme or Todd Bouman. I think it would be foolish to consider either of those guys the long term solution here. I think the real issue is that Brooks provides us with some real bargaining power and given the holes we have on defense, getting good value for him could leave us in prime condition to go deep into the playoffs.

Danno · 12-10-2003, 01:04 PM

We couldn\'t get anythin more than about a 3rd rounder for Brooks. Its better to keep him.
I think if we take off the kid gloves and hold him accountable for his mistakes (benching) he may actually grow a spine and improve both physically and mentally.

I think we have a decent core of players. Lets build on what we have instead of re-building what almost worked.

Think about this...
Change the Carolina blown calls and one Tampa Fumble and this team is an easy 8-5, in 1st place, and the talk of the NFC. We had a good team, but a bad year, again.

saint5221 · 12-10-2003, 01:07 PM

Damn hell of a little pre lunch party you all had in here today, running fights in multiple threads, the return of a favorite fool and Billy ready to bail. Looks like Joe is going to have to work overtime to clean up all this mess.LOL Nothing like a Saints board the week after they start december play.

FrenzyFan · 12-10-2003, 01:15 PM

I am not sure what you expected from people on this board. From what I have read in the past here, there was a pattern. Someone would post a negative comment about Brooks and then you and Saintsfan would attack them. It almost seems as if you and Satinsfan took attacks against Brooks personally. Though I didn\'t post then, it sometimes made me want to post merely to point out that the person you were attacking said NOTHING negative or aggressive about you or any other poster. Yet, they were often derided and called crazy, stupid, ignorant, foolish... it just went on an on.

I will say this much, now that people do it to you (i.e. you make a comment about Brooks, not another poster) and someone comes out an attacks you; you get all \"poor me.\" When other people left this board with that attitude, they were dogged for \"not taking it like a man.\"

Look in the mirror.

BrooksMustGo · 12-10-2003, 01:17 PM

We couldn\'t get anythin more than about a 3rd rounder for Brooks. Its better to keep him.

You know, comments like this are my second favorite ones to read.
My most favorite ones come after I start doing a mock draft.
For example, if I project Joey Thomas--CB--Montana St to go out to Kansas City in the 5th round, I\'ll invariably get some response like this...

\"Dude, what are you smokin?! Every idiot knows that Thomas won\'t slip out of the first round.\"

I just end up thinking, \"Is everyone aware that there are only 32 teams drafting this year?\"

All that to say, we could get better than a 3rd for Brooks.

BillyC · 12-10-2003, 01:20 PM

I am not sure what you expected from people on this board. From what I have read in the past here, there was a pattern. Someone would post a negative comment about Brooks and then you and Saintsfan would attack them. It almost seems as if you and Satinsfan took attacks against Brooks personally. Though I didn\'t post then, it sometimes made me want to post merely to point out that the person you were attacking said NOTHING negative or aggressive about you or any other poster. Yet, they were often derided and called crazy, stupid, ignorant, foolish... it just went on an on.

I will say this much, now that people do it to you (i.e. you make a comment about Brooks, not another poster) and someone comes out an attacks you; you get all \"poor me.\" When other people left this board with that attitude, they were dogged for \"not taking it like a man.\"

Look in the mirror.

No doubt that happend. However, that was before folks started getting banned. People were asked to stop that. Which I did. Now, it\'s still going on but it ain\'t me. At the time when someone was getting called foolish that was a 2 way street.

Of course this is probably just another attempt by me to cover up the REAL problem. Which is ME.

BayouCajun · 12-10-2003, 01:37 PM

BillyC, that is all great about the other QBs. But how does that help or hurt the Saints this year. I believe people would have taken your post better if you would something like this. I know Brooks screwed up and I\'m mad as hell about it but, this has happen to other OBs in the past.

You can\'t be happy about the way Brooks has been playing. And I believe everyone here will agree that Brooks can play great football. We just don\'t want to wait 3 years to see it.

BillyC · 12-10-2003, 01:43 PM

BillyC, that is all great about the other QBs. But how does that help or hurt the Saints this year. I believe people would have taken your post better if you would something like this. I know Brooks screwed up and I\'m mad as hell about it but, this has happen to other OBs in the past.

You can\'t be happy about the way Brooks has been playing. And I believe everyone here will agree that Brooks can play great football. We just don\'t want to wait 3 years to see it.

This is what I said:

If anyone wants to make a case that Brooks should be cut for fumbling, you might want to rethink that arguement. Unless, you are willing to apply that same logic to Brett Favre and John Elway.

I understand that some folks are going to use everything in the world to say Brooks is terrible and this is something that has never happened in the history of the NFL, but it\'s nothing unique to Brooks. It\'s a problem that Brooks must correct, but certainly not one to calling for his head.

Just about all QB\'s lead there teams in fumbles each year. Some fumble more than others. It\'s correctable....

That\'s also what I meant. I never EVER said Brooks was playing great. NEVER. Simply trying to say that other QB\'s have had simular problems. I also said he needed to correct the problem. When I start having to post things that I don\'t mean then it\'s time I move on. I can\'t help if folks can\'t follow the logic and wants to put words in my mouth. Nope. Can\'t do it.

[Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]

BillyC · 12-10-2003, 01:46 PM

Ok, now I\'ll take that break. You guys keep thinking of how I\'m causing problems here.

12-10-2003, 12:35 PM	#11
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Ok . You guys win. Now, look around. You\'re beginning to sound a bit like the Iraqi defense minister. I mean, there\'s no one left that thinks the way you do. You\'ve refused to change your views and those view now appear diluted. (I\'m not saying that they are I\'m saying people feel that way). I mean, after the Tampa game the first post I saw on this board was you talking about how poorly Brooks had played and how he cost us the game. The next post was the usual Billy talk about how everyone else screwed up just as much and Brooks isn\'t really the problem. How can that be? Man, you don\'t want people coming after you, well don\'t give them a reason to. I\'m not telling you to toe my line, or the line of anyone else on the board, but unwillingness to change despite every good reason to, well, I go back to the Iraqi defense minister analogy. Clearly Books has been to blame in 2 of the losses. I\'ve said that several times. Clearly Brooks has a fumbling problem this year and I have said that also. How many times do I have to say it? I\'ve said Haslett needs to go. How many times do I have to say that. All most of you do is post the same thing over and over. I have brought up very FAIR comparisons to other QB\'s. It is relevant and I\'m not and never did say that Brooks was the caliber of QB\'s of those guys. I just was trying to make a point that other QB\'s have endured simualr problems and went on to do fine. Fact is that when I say ANYTHING guy like you go around saying I can\'t or won\'t admit the shortcomings of this team. When in reality I have done so many times. Bashing is completely the \"IN THING\" on this board and I do not agree with many things that are posted here. Sure, give up on Brooks, Tebucky, and whoever else you want to. Bash away, day after day. God forbid someone says it ain\'t time to give up on this guys yet and makes fair comparisons to other players. I have said in the past that some wrote this team off too quickly and they did. Just because the Saints probably aren\'t going to the playoffs did not make you writing the team off right. If you want to keep saying that I\'ve been wrong. Fine. I have no problem admitting my prediction about this team was wrong. I think you said your prediction about the last year was wrong. Frankly, I\'m tired of having to defend myself when I know I\'m bringing up very valid points only to have to get on a personal level with most folks.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-10-2003, 12:49 PM	#12
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Ok . You guys win. Bill brings a valuable perspective to this board. I\'m not exactly sure if Bill is a Saints fan or a Brooks fan sometimes. And suffice it to say, that I typically disagree with his confidence in Brooks. But I would have to confess that in light of all the player turnover for the past 4 years, I\'d like to go ahead and make one more big trade. I honestly believe that Aaron Brooks could be our Herschel Walker. I think we can get far more out of him that helps us down the road than we\'re getting from him right now. I don\'t think Brooks takes us to the superbowl. Now if we trade him and next season San Diego goes to the superbowl then I sure hope we got something good to show for it. But I think that is highly unlikely unless Brooks becomes an entirely new person after getting traded. I for one disagree with cutting Brooks. That would be dumb. We should be able to get good value for him. I disagree with benching Brooks. We bench him, then he doesn\'t get to pad his stats and it raises questions about how little a team would have to offer us to get him in a trade. No, I think play him as the starter and give a team like the Chargers, Cardinals, etc a chance to trade down and pay through the nose for him. I don\'t think Brooks will ever be a great player in New Orleans. There is no middle ground among fans on him. People either love him or detest him. But I do think that freeing up some cap space for a great free agent or two, drafting a qb to learn behind someone like Brunnell and a couple of years puts this organization in the nfc championship game at the least. I think that\'s a huge benefit for a nominal (8-8) cost. I say jump on it while he is still young enough to generate that sort of trade interest. If he hangs around another 3 years, then he\'ll be 31 with 3 more lackluster seasons behind him. I don\'t see another team being willing to break the bank on a 31 year old lackluster qb. But now I think that some team would. I think we should strike while the iron is hot. I\'d also like to clear up that I never thought the answer for this team was Jake Delhomme or Todd Bouman. I think it would be foolish to consider either of those guys the long term solution here. I think the real issue is that Brooks provides us with some real bargaining power and given the holes we have on defense, getting good value for him could leave us in prime condition to go deep into the playoffs.
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

12-10-2003, 01:04 PM	#13
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Ok . You guys win. We couldn\'t get anythin more than about a 3rd rounder for Brooks. Its better to keep him. I think if we take off the kid gloves and hold him accountable for his mistakes (benching) he may actually grow a spine and improve both physically and mentally. I think we have a decent core of players. Lets build on what we have instead of re-building what almost worked. Think about this... Change the Carolina blown calls and one Tampa Fumble and this team is an easy 8-5, in 1st place, and the talk of the NFC. We had a good team, but a bad year, again.

12-10-2003, 01:07 PM	#14
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Ok . You guys win. Damn hell of a little pre lunch party you all had in here today, running fights in multiple threads, the return of a favorite fool and Billy ready to bail. Looks like Joe is going to have to work overtime to clean up all this mess.LOL Nothing like a Saints board the week after they start december play.
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

12-10-2003, 01:15 PM	#15
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Ok . You guys win. I am not sure what you expected from people on this board. From what I have read in the past here, there was a pattern. Someone would post a negative comment about Brooks and then you and Saintsfan would attack them. It almost seems as if you and Satinsfan took attacks against Brooks personally. Though I didn\'t post then, it sometimes made me want to post merely to point out that the person you were attacking said NOTHING negative or aggressive about you or any other poster. Yet, they were often derided and called crazy, stupid, ignorant, foolish... it just went on an on. I will say this much, now that people do it to you (i.e. you make a comment about Brooks, not another poster) and someone comes out an attacks you; you get all \"poor me.\" When other people left this board with that attitude, they were dogged for \"not taking it like a man.\" Look in the mirror.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

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12-10-2003, 01:17 PM	#16
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Ok . You guys win. We couldn\'t get anythin more than about a 3rd rounder for Brooks. Its better to keep him. You know, comments like this are my second favorite ones to read. My most favorite ones come after I start doing a mock draft. For example, if I project Joey Thomas--CB--Montana St to go out to Kansas City in the 5th round, I\'ll invariably get some response like this... \"Dude, what are you smokin?! Every idiot knows that Thomas won\'t slip out of the first round.\" I just end up thinking, \"Is everyone aware that there are only 32 teams drafting this year?\" All that to say, we could get better than a 3rd for Brooks.
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

12-10-2003, 01:20 PM	#17
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Ok . You guys win. I am not sure what you expected from people on this board. From what I have read in the past here, there was a pattern. Someone would post a negative comment about Brooks and then you and Saintsfan would attack them. It almost seems as if you and Satinsfan took attacks against Brooks personally. Though I didn\'t post then, it sometimes made me want to post merely to point out that the person you were attacking said NOTHING negative or aggressive about you or any other poster. Yet, they were often derided and called crazy, stupid, ignorant, foolish... it just went on an on. I will say this much, now that people do it to you (i.e. you make a comment about Brooks, not another poster) and someone comes out an attacks you; you get all \"poor me.\" When other people left this board with that attitude, they were dogged for \"not taking it like a man.\" Look in the mirror. No doubt that happend. However, that was before folks started getting banned. People were asked to stop that. Which I did. Now, it\'s still going on but it ain\'t me. At the time when someone was getting called foolish that was a 2 way street. Of course this is probably just another attempt by me to cover up the REAL problem. Which is ME.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-10-2003, 01:37 PM	#18
BayouCajun Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 26	Ok . You guys win. BillyC, that is all great about the other QBs. But how does that help or hurt the Saints this year. I believe people would have taken your post better if you would something like this. I know Brooks screwed up and I\'m mad as hell about it but, this has happen to other OBs in the past. You can\'t be happy about the way Brooks has been playing. And I believe everyone here will agree that Brooks can play great football. We just don\'t want to wait 3 years to see it.
BayouCajun Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 26

12-10-2003, 01:43 PM	#19
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Ok . You guys win. BillyC, that is all great about the other QBs. But how does that help or hurt the Saints this year. I believe people would have taken your post better if you would something like this. I know Brooks screwed up and I\'m mad as hell about it but, this has happen to other OBs in the past. You can\'t be happy about the way Brooks has been playing. And I believe everyone here will agree that Brooks can play great football. We just don\'t want to wait 3 years to see it. This is what I said: If anyone wants to make a case that Brooks should be cut for fumbling, you might want to rethink that arguement. Unless, you are willing to apply that same logic to Brett Favre and John Elway. I understand that some folks are going to use everything in the world to say Brooks is terrible and this is something that has never happened in the history of the NFL, but it\'s nothing unique to Brooks. It\'s a problem that Brooks must correct, but certainly not one to calling for his head. Just about all QB\'s lead there teams in fumbles each year. Some fumble more than others. It\'s correctable.... That\'s also what I meant. I never EVER said Brooks was playing great. NEVER. Simply trying to say that other QB\'s have had simular problems. I also said he needed to correct the problem. When I start having to post things that I don\'t mean then it\'s time I move on. I can\'t help if folks can\'t follow the logic and wants to put words in my mouth. Nope. Can\'t do it. [Edited on 10/12/2003 by BillyC]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-10-2003, 01:46 PM	#20
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Ok . You guys win. Ok, now I\'ll take that break. You guys keep thinking of how I\'m causing problems here.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842