How much is enough...

saintsfan1976 · 07-23-2011, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

You're missing the point. I advocate for the players making as much as they can make. If the money is there a large portion of it should go to them. They are the product and I get that. My point is not to 'hate' them for what they make, but rather it is to establish that they make a LOT of money - even the lowest paid players in the league make BIG cash.

No. There are some extremely well-paid players but the majority aren't as successful as you think. Remember that an NFL contract is not "guaranteed" like other sports.

Originally Posted by saintfan

But it's not enough. No. The players angle here is not to be paid fairly - their salaries are fair by ANY measure. It is to be paid as much as possible, collateral damage (thats us by the way) be damned.

How do you know what the players want? You don't play in the NFL.

Originally Posted by saintfan

Blaming the evil agents is missing the target. The agents are a tool of the players, not the other way around. Players holding out in training camp are not handcuffed by their agents. Players refusing to sign with the team that drafted them aren't handcuffed by agents. Players decertifying their union aren't told to do so by their agents. Players suing their bosses in court aren't forced to do so by their agents. No, agents are leveraged by players to cut them the most lucrative deal they can.

Totally disagree. A 22 year old football player or Drew Rosenhaus. Which person is more likely to negotiate NFL contracts? Agents want the pay scale to increase each year for their own benefit.

Originally Posted by saintfan

A man who has made over 50 million dollars over the last ten years playing a game who tells me he is being mistreated is going to have a hard time swinging me to his side. He's not a miner and this ain't the roaring twenties. A man who tells me the system is corrupt while cashing out nearly a million and a half over 5 years at a MINIMUM better come to the table with something pretty damaging.

None have. None can. It's a farce.

This is a common sentiment. We're fans. We want football. But don't fool yourself into thinking that either side of this is more right than the other.

saintfan · 07-23-2011, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

No. There are some extremely well-paid players but the majority aren't as successful as you think. Remember that an NFL contract is not "guaranteed" like other sports.

How do you know what the players want? You don't play in the NFL.

Totally disagree. A 22 year old football player or Drew Rosenhaus. Which person is more likely to negotiate NFL contracts? Agents want the pay scale to increase each year for their own benefit.

This is a common sentiment. We're fans. We want football. But don't fool yourself into thinking that either side of this is more right than the other.

The agents are the motivators behind the whole thing? Man give me some of what you're smoking. You think that 22 year old would play for less but doesn't because his agent won't let him? For real? You really think that? Dude....

Guaranteed? Nothing to do with a single thing.

As for what the players want, it is evident that they want to work less and get paid more. If you haven't deduced that by now then you're either (a) not paying attention or (b) not willing to honor the factual reality of what's going on. I know what they want. YOU know what they want. Please lets not debate semantics or the otherwise obvious.

Let's define 'well paid'. Would you say, "Hey, I think I'm pretty well paid", if I offered you 88 THOUSAND dollars for 17 weeks of work? That's what the lowest of the low, the practice squad players, are making. Would you say, "Hey, I'm pretty darn well paid", if I told you I would pay you 1.4 million plus benefits over the next 5 years. I bet you would. That's what the rookie minimum salary is. Of course anything north of that and I'm certain you would continue to think you're well paid. While it is true that some of paid MUCH more than others, to a man they are every one of them 'well paid' by any definition. Period.

I am not fooling myself one bit. I'm not sure you aren't though. I cannot walk into my bosses office, the owner of the company, and say, "Hey, me and my coworkers, we want 46% of what you netted this year. It doesn't work that way. The players are very fortunate men, and as I have already said, I advocate for them making as much as they can, up to a point. That point is when they begin to costs me games. By failing to sign an agreement that makes their situations EVEN BETTER than the numbers I just provided you they have cost me the HOF game. They don't care. I do. They SAY they care, but the truth is they are more interested in future leverage against the men and women who pay their far more than generous salaries.

The is most definitely a right and a wrong in this debate. I have not been manipulated by either side. I am angry at both of them for this foolishness, but, as I have said, a man making 285000 much less one making 50 million is going to have a very hard time making me understand his position if he tell me he is being mistreated.

If you disagree then so be it. We can leave it at that.

saintsfan1976 · 07-23-2011, 11:00 PM

My point regarding agents is that they are to blame for the rising costs of rookie salaries. They negotiate the contracts therefore they dictate when a player "plays".

'Players want more to do less'? Man that's your view so have it - I disagree.

Let's take your job for example. Say your performance makes your boss an extra million dollars in profit every year and all he does is tell you that he wants you to work more hours, keep the same pay and keep the same benefits.

Would you want to restructure your deal? Or are you "paid well enough already"??

saintfan · 07-23-2011, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

My point regarding agents is that they are to blame for the rising costs of rookie salaries. They negotiate the contracts therefore they dictate when a player "plays".

'Players want more to do less'? Man that's your view so have it - I disagree.

Let's take your job for example. Say your performance makes your boss an extra million dollars in profit every year and all he does is tell you that he wants you to work more hours, keep the same pay and keep the same benefits.

Would you want to restructure your deal? Or are you "paid well enough already"??

Man you just don't get it. The terms of the deal dictate MORE money and LESS work. That's not my opinion. That's fact. Believe as you wish.

Agents are not in control man. Players are in control. They pay the agent to leverage as much as they can get, and I don't have a problem with that either by the way, but I'm afraid you've got it backwards my friend.

In the NFL, 'performance' is the difference between the low salary guys and the high salary guys. Those who perform will make more money than you and your 10 best friends will make in your lives. It's BIG money...VERY BIG money. And we just missed the HOF game because they want more. It's already too damned expensive to go to a game, and it ain't gonna do anything but continue to be more and more expensive. You blame the agents for this. I'm telling you the agents work at the player's discretion. Believe what you want.

And once again, they can make as much as they want. I don't hate 'em for it, right up until they cost me a game.

saintsfan1976 · 07-24-2011, 09:06 AM

Okay, your still not getting my point. But hey - Sportcenter says it looks like a deal is being signed on Monday! Woo hoo!!! Now those greedy players who make too much money can get back to working for the o-so-fair owners.

saintfan · 07-24-2011, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Okay, your still not getting my point. But hey - Sportcenter says it looks like a deal is being signed on Monday! Woo hoo!!! Now those greedy players who make too much money can get back to working for the o-so-fair owners.

LMAO. NOW you're on the right track!

saintsfan1976 · 07-24-2011, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

LMAO. NOW you're on the right track!

ALLSAINTS66 · 07-24-2011, 02:12 PM

Yeah so, do you have the numbers for the OWNERS?

saintfan · 07-24-2011, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by ALLSAINTS66

Yeah so, do you have the numbers for the OWNERS?

No. Do YOU have the numbers for YOUR boss? 'nuff said...

07-23-2011, 09:17 PM	#11
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,846 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by saintfan You're missing the point. I advocate for the players making as much as they can make. If the money is there a large portion of it should go to them. They are the product and I get that. My point is not to 'hate' them for what they make, but rather it is to establish that they make a LOT of money - even the lowest paid players in the league make BIG cash. No. There are some extremely well-paid players but the majority aren't as successful as you think. Remember that an NFL contract is not "guaranteed" like other sports. Originally Posted by saintfan But it's not enough. No. The players angle here is not to be paid fairly - their salaries are fair by ANY measure. It is to be paid as much as possible, collateral damage (thats us by the way) be damned. How do you know what the players want? You don't play in the NFL. Originally Posted by saintfan Blaming the evil agents is missing the target. The agents are a tool of the players, not the other way around. Players holding out in training camp are not handcuffed by their agents. Players refusing to sign with the team that drafted them aren't handcuffed by agents. Players decertifying their union aren't told to do so by their agents. Players suing their bosses in court aren't forced to do so by their agents. No, agents are leveraged by players to cut them the most lucrative deal they can. Totally disagree. A 22 year old football player or Drew Rosenhaus. Which person is more likely to negotiate NFL contracts? Agents want the pay scale to increase each year for their own benefit. Originally Posted by saintfan A man who has made over 50 million dollars over the last ten years playing a game who tells me he is being mistreated is going to have a hard time swinging me to his side. He's not a miner and this ain't the roaring twenties. A man who tells me the system is corrupt while cashing out nearly a million and a half over 5 years at a MINIMUM better come to the table with something pretty damaging. None have. None can. It's a farce. This is a common sentiment. We're fans. We want football. But don't fool yourself into thinking that either side of this is more right than the other.

07-23-2011, 10:41 PM	#12
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 No. There are some extremely well-paid players but the majority aren't as successful as you think. Remember that an NFL contract is not "guaranteed" like other sports. How do you know what the players want? You don't play in the NFL. Totally disagree. A 22 year old football player or Drew Rosenhaus. Which person is more likely to negotiate NFL contracts? Agents want the pay scale to increase each year for their own benefit. This is a common sentiment. We're fans. We want football. But don't fool yourself into thinking that either side of this is more right than the other. The agents are the motivators behind the whole thing? Man give me some of what you're smoking. You think that 22 year old would play for less but doesn't because his agent won't let him? For real? You really think that? Dude.... Guaranteed? Nothing to do with a single thing. As for what the players want, it is evident that they want to work less and get paid more. If you haven't deduced that by now then you're either (a) not paying attention or (b) not willing to honor the factual reality of what's going on. I know what they want. YOU know what they want. Please lets not debate semantics or the otherwise obvious. Let's define 'well paid'. Would you say, "Hey, I think I'm pretty well paid", if I offered you 88 THOUSAND dollars for 17 weeks of work? That's what the lowest of the low, the practice squad players, are making. Would you say, "Hey, I'm pretty darn well paid", if I told you I would pay you 1.4 million plus benefits over the next 5 years. I bet you would. That's what the rookie minimum salary is. Of course anything north of that and I'm certain you would continue to think you're well paid. While it is true that some of paid MUCH more than others, to a man they are every one of them 'well paid' by any definition. Period. I am not fooling myself one bit. I'm not sure you aren't though. I cannot walk into my bosses office, the owner of the company, and say, "Hey, me and my coworkers, we want 46% of what you netted this year. It doesn't work that way. The players are very fortunate men, and as I have already said, I advocate for them making as much as they can, up to a point. That point is when they begin to costs me games. By failing to sign an agreement that makes their situations EVEN BETTER than the numbers I just provided you they have cost me the HOF game. They don't care. I do. They SAY they care, but the truth is they are more interested in future leverage against the men and women who pay their far more than generous salaries. The is most definitely a right and a wrong in this debate. I have not been manipulated by either side. I am angry at both of them for this foolishness, but, as I have said, a man making 285000 much less one making 50 million is going to have a very hard time making me understand his position if he tell me he is being mistreated. If you disagree then so be it. We can leave it at that.
	C'mon Man...

07-23-2011, 11:58 PM	#14
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 My point regarding agents is that they are to blame for the rising costs of rookie salaries. They negotiate the contracts therefore they dictate when a player "plays". 'Players want more to do less'? Man that's your view so have it - I disagree. Let's take your job for example. Say your performance makes your boss an extra million dollars in profit every year and all he does is tell you that he wants you to work more hours, keep the same pay and keep the same benefits. Would you want to restructure your deal? Or are you "paid well enough already"?? Man you just don't get it. The terms of the deal dictate MORE money and LESS work. That's not my opinion. That's fact. Believe as you wish. Agents are not in control man. Players are in control. They pay the agent to leverage as much as they can get, and I don't have a problem with that either by the way, but I'm afraid you've got it backwards my friend. In the NFL, 'performance' is the difference between the low salary guys and the high salary guys. Those who perform will make more money than you and your 10 best friends will make in your lives. It's BIG money...VERY BIG money. And we just missed the HOF game because they want more. It's already too damned expensive to go to a game, and it ain't gonna do anything but continue to be more and more expensive. You blame the agents for this. I'm telling you the agents work at the player's discretion. Believe what you want. And once again, they can make as much as they want. I don't hate 'em for it, right up until they cost me a game.
	C'mon Man...

07-24-2011, 10:26 AM	#16
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Okay, your still not getting my point. But hey - Sportcenter says it looks like a deal is being signed on Monday! Woo hoo!!! Now those greedy players who make too much money can get back to working for the o-so-fair owners. LMAO. NOW you're on the right track!

07-24-2011, 11:39 AM	#17
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,846 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by saintfan LMAO. NOW you're on the right track!

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07-23-2011, 11:00 PM	#13
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,846 Blog Entries: 3	My point regarding agents is that they are to blame for the rising costs of rookie salaries. They negotiate the contracts therefore they dictate when a player "plays". 'Players want more to do less'? Man that's your view so have it - I disagree. Let's take your job for example. Say your performance makes your boss an extra million dollars in profit every year and all he does is tell you that he wants you to work more hours, keep the same pay and keep the same benefits. Would you want to restructure your deal? Or are you "paid well enough already"??

07-24-2011, 09:06 AM	#15
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,846 Blog Entries: 3	Okay, your still not getting my point. But hey - Sportcenter says it looks like a deal is being signed on Monday! Woo hoo!!! Now those greedy players who make too much money can get back to working for the o-so-fair owners.

07-24-2011, 02:12 PM	#18
ALLSAINTS66 Bless You Boys! Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: In mah hause. Posts: 319	Yeah so, do you have the numbers for the OWNERS? saintsfan1976 likes this.

07-24-2011, 10:43 PM	#19
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by ALLSAINTS66 Yeah so, do you have the numbers for the OWNERS? No. Do YOU have the numbers for YOUR boss? 'nuff said...