The debate about MVP

Beastmode · 01-03-2012, 05:34 PM

Brees won't get it but I look at it this way, SB MVP, he already earned that title playing against the best of the best and has an opportunity to do it again. At the end of the day, I'd take a SB MVP anyday over a RS MVP.

Still, they are looking over some of Rogers shortcomings, like being sacked 12 more times. It would have been more if he'd played the last game considering Flynn was put down 5 times. Also running, Rogers runs because he has to, to the tune of 5X a game he just takes off. That's not an a good thing. Brees has more picks but that's because he plays the position of QB, not RB and not all those picks are entirely on him. What they are saying is all of Brees's records are impressive but not impressive enough. Get outta here..He broke several records, not just Marino's record.

WHO_DAT_CAT · 01-03-2012, 05:36 PM

Drew Brees

Completion PCT 71.2 %
Pass Yards 5,476
TD/INT 46-14
YPA 8.33
Att/Com 657/468

Aaron Rodgers

Completion PCT 68.3 %
Pass Yards 4,643
TD / INT 45-6
YPA 9.4
Att /Com 502/343

I don't think tipped balls for an interception should be a part of the evaluation unless a defender tips the ball and another defender recovers. Our own receivers tipping the ball happened many times this year to Brees. Need to see if I can find the number.

And, even though Rodgers threw, on average, passes for one more yard than Brees, Brees threw 125 more caught passes than Rodgers. Brees also threw for 833 more yards than Rodgers. This would obviously open him up to more interceptions.

To me the quarterback who has the most balls thrown accurately -- in a league where passing skill is obviously getting teams into the playoffs -- wins the argument for me.

I also think how many sacks or fumbles a quarterback takes should enter into the evaluation, because I see pocket-presence, mobility, ball security and elusiveness as important quarterback attributes. But his O-line's comparative ability to protect him and his center's ball skills would have to be part of the analysis. I'm having trouble finding/interpreting these numbers for Brees vs. Rodgers this year. Maybe someone else can help.

pherein · 01-03-2012, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

Drew Brees

Completion PCT 71.2 %
Pass Yards 5,476
TD/INT 46-14
YPA 8.33
Att/Com 657/468

Aaron Rodgers

Completion PCT 68.3 %
Pass Yards 4,643
TD / INT 45-6
YPA 9.4
Att /Com 502/343

I don't think tipped balls for an interception should be a part of the evaluation unless a defender tips the ball and another defender recovers. Our own receivers tipping the ball happened many times this year to Brees. Need to see if I can find the number.

And, even though Rodgers threw, on average, passes for one more yard than Brees, Brees threw 125 more caught passes than Rodgers. Brees also threw for 833 more yards than Rodgers. This would obviously open him up to more interceptions.

To me the quarterback who has the most balls thrown accurately -- in a league where passing skill is obviously getting teams into the playoffs -- wins the argument for me.

I also think how many sacks or fumbles a quarterback takes should enter into the evaluation, because I see pocket-presence, mobility, ball security and elusiveness as important quarterback attributes. But his O-line's comparative ability to protect him and his center's ball skills would have to be part of the analysis. I'm having trouble finding/interpreting these numbers for Brees vs. Rodgers this year. Maybe someone else can help.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Brees lost the 2008 and 2009 MVP because of the Manning love, even though Brees beat Manning on every stat.
So, how is Rogers even in the mix? seeing that finely just kicked his but as a 2nd QB, apparently the talent is so good in GB anyone can QB. If its about stats, why didn't Brees win both years ?

Unfortunately that brings Brady into the mix. If your really looking for MVP, he is working with way less than GB or NO.

YAC and the RB

Saints
158 completions to RBs for 1199 YAC....(4 RBs in top 300 YAC)
GB
73 completions to RBs for 598 YAC....(4 RBs in top 300 YAC)
Pats
34 completions to RBs for 248 YAC.......( above )
Total YAC for each team (using top 300 YAC players)

Pats....2387 YAC
NO.....2299 YAC
GB.....1889 YAC

NO is more a short game team....2 RBs in top 15 YAC
Pats are so top heavy (4) in their weapons (2088 )YAC)...3 stars
Rodgers receivers has less YAC stars.....4 in the #23-#59 range

Saints are a amazing short field team, and based on 8 yards. Our QB's 1st responsibility when passing is to make 8, if another opportunity opens up he will bomb it down field. At least in SP mind, if you don't have a short pass/run game, you can be stopped.

Isn't it more applicable to figure out who is the best game manager?
YAC is interesting, but not understanding how a QB that throws 2 40 yard passes, and ends with a field goal, is better than a QB that short passes, screens, and places the ball perfectly for 15 plays, and gets a touchdown.

I would pick the second one. Rogers is a bomb machine

Plus throwing bombs relies heavily on receiver talent. Any of the 3 QB's in question can chuck it up to Megatron. Thats not talent, its just distance. And what happens when you cover that option ? Suddenly, and maybe what happen with KC and GB, your forced to find your short game, and beat a #1 defense, like ravens, by reading its weaknesses and carving it up, but your not good at it. So, GB lost.

Brees is the best manager in the game, but Brady doesn't have near the weapons we or GB has. So who is MVP

WHO_DAT_CAT · 01-04-2012, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by pherein

Saints are a amazing short field team, and based on 8 yards. Our QB's 1st responsibility when passing is to make 8, if another opportunity opens up he will bomb it down field. At least in SP mind, if you don't have a short pass/run game, you can be stopped.

Isn't it more applicable to figure out who is the best game manager?
YAC is interesting, but not understanding how a QB that throws 2 40 yard passes, and ends with a field goal, is better than a QB that short passes, screens, and places the ball perfectly for 15 plays, and gets a touchdown.

I would pick the second one. Rogers is a bomb machine

Plus throwing bombs relies heavily on receiver talent. Any of the 3 QB's in question can chuck it up to Megatron. Thats not talent, its just distance. And what happens when you cover that option ? Suddenly, and maybe what happen with KC and GB, your forced to find your short game, and beat a #1 defense, like ravens, by reading its weaknesses and carving it up, but your not good at it. So, GB lost.

Brees is the best manager in the game, but Brady doesn't have near the weapons we or GB has. So who is MVP

I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers.

I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target.

But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me.

pherein · 01-04-2012, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers.

I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target.

But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me.

Yeah, its exactly why Brees has a much better completion record than Rogers. But, factor in could any of the other 2 QB's throw that many passes that accurately . I don't think so.
No one has ever done 70.1%, and Brees broke his own record this year. He is amazingly accurate.

I would say the most accurate QB I have ever seen in my life.

It is subjective and confusing. I think most fans don't even give MVP credence anymore, because it has no structure or logic. Most forums I am on of opposing teams debated and thought Brees should be MVP in 2008, 2009, because his stats were much better.
And most sports stats guys agree that Brees has been the best overall QB for 5 years now, not Brady, Manning, Warner, etc.. (well except Bradys 2007 season). But out of all of them Brees still doesn't have a single MVP. I think that is an amazing over site , and I think because Drew plays for the Saints, and not a Dynasty team he has been shunned a bit.

lumm0x · 01-03-2012, 11:00 PM

I think Matt Flynn just proved who the real MVP is.

jokeray · 01-04-2012, 01:41 PM

Brees MVP, no doubt.

No argument, just give it to him!

(And Flynn's performance absolutely SHOULD hurt Rodgers chances, not that he should win it anyway!)

Hell, I'd give it to Peyton Manning before Rodgers.

saintfan · 01-04-2012, 04:38 PM

Who is the Most Valuable or the most Popular? If it's the MPP then give it to Rogers. But if it's the MVP, then give it to Brees.

Don't think so? Check the salaries at the beginning of next season, regardless of what happens the rest of the way.

CharityMike · 01-04-2012, 05:39 PM

So here's a question, if they aren't going to announce the MVP until the week of the SB, am I to assume that is when it will be voted?

If so, how awesome would it be for Drew to outshine Rodgers in the conference game? I'd say his chances would go way up.

Danno · 01-04-2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by CharityMike

So here's a question, if they aren't going to announce the MVP until the week of the SB, am I to assume that is when it will be voted?

If so, how awesome would it be for Drew to outshine Rodgers in the conference game? I'd say his chances would go way up.

Thats where they stick their neck out. They voted yesterday (I think) so the MVP has already been decided.

Personally I couldn't care less about who wins the NFL MVP.

01-03-2012, 09:55 PM	#3
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT Drew Brees Completion PCT 71.2 % Pass Yards 5,476 TD/INT 46-14 YPA 8.33 Att/Com 657/468 Aaron Rodgers Completion PCT 68.3 % Pass Yards 4,643 TD / INT 45-6 YPA 9.4 Att /Com 502/343 I don't think tipped balls for an interception should be a part of the evaluation unless a defender tips the ball and another defender recovers. Our own receivers tipping the ball happened many times this year to Brees. Need to see if I can find the number. And, even though Rodgers threw, on average, passes for one more yard than Brees, Brees threw 125 more caught passes than Rodgers. Brees also threw for 833 more yards than Rodgers. This would obviously open him up to more interceptions. To me the quarterback who has the most balls thrown accurately -- in a league where passing skill is obviously getting teams into the playoffs -- wins the argument for me. I also think how many sacks or fumbles a quarterback takes should enter into the evaluation, because I see pocket-presence, mobility, ball security and elusiveness as important quarterback attributes. But his O-line's comparative ability to protect him and his center's ball skills would have to be part of the analysis. I'm having trouble finding/interpreting these numbers for Brees vs. Rodgers this year. Maybe someone else can help. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Brees lost the 2008 and 2009 MVP because of the Manning love, even though Brees beat Manning on every stat. So, how is Rogers even in the mix? seeing that finely just kicked his but as a 2nd QB, apparently the talent is so good in GB anyone can QB. If its about stats, why didn't Brees win both years ? Unfortunately that brings Brady into the mix. If your really looking for MVP, he is working with way less than GB or NO. YAC and the RB Saints 158 completions to RBs for 1199 YAC....(4 RBs in top 300 YAC) GB 73 completions to RBs for 598 YAC....(4 RBs in top 300 YAC) Pats 34 completions to RBs for 248 YAC.......( above ) Total YAC for each team (using top 300 YAC players) Pats....2387 YAC NO.....2299 YAC GB.....1889 YAC NO is more a short game team....2 RBs in top 15 YAC Pats are so top heavy (4) in their weapons (2088 )YAC)...3 stars Rodgers receivers has less YAC stars.....4 in the #23-#59 range Saints are a amazing short field team, and based on 8 yards. Our QB's 1st responsibility when passing is to make 8, if another opportunity opens up he will bomb it down field. At least in SP mind, if you don't have a short pass/run game, you can be stopped. Isn't it more applicable to figure out who is the best game manager? YAC is interesting, but not understanding how a QB that throws 2 40 yard passes, and ends with a field goal, is better than a QB that short passes, screens, and places the ball perfectly for 15 plays, and gets a touchdown. I would pick the second one. Rogers is a bomb machine Plus throwing bombs relies heavily on receiver talent. Any of the 3 QB's in question can chuck it up to Megatron. Thats not talent, its just distance. And what happens when you cover that option ? Suddenly, and maybe what happen with KC and GB, your forced to find your short game, and beat a #1 defense, like ravens, by reading its weaknesses and carving it up, but your not good at it. So, GB lost. Brees is the best manager in the game, but Brady doesn't have near the weapons we or GB has. So who is MVP
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before. Last edited by pherein; 01-03-2012 at 10:00 PM..

01-04-2012, 02:53 AM	#4
WHO_DAT_CAT 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: California - Bay Area Posts: 386	Originally Posted by pherein Saints are a amazing short field team, and based on 8 yards. Our QB's 1st responsibility when passing is to make 8, if another opportunity opens up he will bomb it down field. At least in SP mind, if you don't have a short pass/run game, you can be stopped. Isn't it more applicable to figure out who is the best game manager? YAC is interesting, but not understanding how a QB that throws 2 40 yard passes, and ends with a field goal, is better than a QB that short passes, screens, and places the ball perfectly for 15 plays, and gets a touchdown. I would pick the second one. Rogers is a bomb machine Plus throwing bombs relies heavily on receiver talent. Any of the 3 QB's in question can chuck it up to Megatron. Thats not talent, its just distance. And what happens when you cover that option ? Suddenly, and maybe what happen with KC and GB, your forced to find your short game, and beat a #1 defense, like ravens, by reading its weaknesses and carving it up, but your not good at it. So, GB lost. Brees is the best manager in the game, but Brady doesn't have near the weapons we or GB has. So who is MVP I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers. I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target. But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me.

01-04-2012, 06:08 PM	#5
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers. I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target. But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me. Yeah, its exactly why Brees has a much better completion record than Rogers. But, factor in could any of the other 2 QB's throw that many passes that accurately . I don't think so. No one has ever done 70.1%, and Brees broke his own record this year. He is amazingly accurate. I would say the most accurate QB I have ever seen in my life. It is subjective and confusing. I think most fans don't even give MVP credence anymore, because it has no structure or logic. Most forums I am on of opposing teams debated and thought Brees should be MVP in 2008, 2009, because his stats were much better. And most sports stats guys agree that Brees has been the best overall QB for 5 years now, not Brady, Manning, Warner, etc.. (well except Bradys 2007 season). But out of all of them Brees still doesn't have a single MVP. I think that is an amazing over site , and I think because Drew plays for the Saints, and not a Dynasty team he has been shunned a bit.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before.

01-03-2012, 11:00 PM	#6
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	I think Matt Flynn just proved who the real MVP is. Halo and pherein like this.

01-04-2012, 01:41 PM	#7
jokeray Jackwagon! Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 211	Brees MVP, no doubt. No argument, just give it to him! (And Flynn's performance absolutely SHOULD hurt Rodgers chances, not that he should win it anyway!) Hell, I'd give it to Peyton Manning before Rodgers. Halo, Srgt. Hulka and pherein like this.
jokeray Jackwagon! Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 211

01-03-2012, 05:34 PM	#1
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126	Brees won't get it but I look at it this way, SB MVP, he already earned that title playing against the best of the best and has an opportunity to do it again. At the end of the day, I'd take a SB MVP anyday over a RS MVP. Still, they are looking over some of Rogers shortcomings, like being sacked 12 more times. It would have been more if he'd played the last game considering Flynn was put down 5 times. Also running, Rogers runs because he has to, to the tune of 5X a game he just takes off. That's not an a good thing. Brees has more picks but that's because he plays the position of QB, not RB and not all those picks are entirely on him. What they are saying is all of Brees's records are impressive but not impressive enough. Get outta here..He broke several records, not just Marino's record.
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126

01-03-2012, 05:36 PM	#2
WHO_DAT_CAT 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: California - Bay Area Posts: 386	Drew Brees Completion PCT 71.2 % Pass Yards 5,476 TD/INT 46-14 YPA 8.33 Att/Com 657/468 Aaron Rodgers Completion PCT 68.3 % Pass Yards 4,643 TD / INT 45-6 YPA 9.4 Att /Com 502/343 I don't think tipped balls for an interception should be a part of the evaluation unless a defender tips the ball and another defender recovers. Our own receivers tipping the ball happened many times this year to Brees. Need to see if I can find the number. And, even though Rodgers threw, on average, passes for one more yard than Brees, Brees threw 125 more caught passes than Rodgers. Brees also threw for 833 more yards than Rodgers. This would obviously open him up to more interceptions. To me the quarterback who has the most balls thrown accurately -- in a league where passing skill is obviously getting teams into the playoffs -- wins the argument for me. I also think how many sacks or fumbles a quarterback takes should enter into the evaluation, because I see pocket-presence, mobility, ball security and elusiveness as important quarterback attributes. But his O-line's comparative ability to protect him and his center's ball skills would have to be part of the analysis. I'm having trouble finding/interpreting these numbers for Brees vs. Rodgers this year. Maybe someone else can help.

01-04-2012, 04:38 PM	#8
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Who is the Most Valuable or the most Popular? If it's the MPP then give it to Rogers. But if it's the MVP, then give it to Brees. Don't think so? Check the salaries at the beginning of next season, regardless of what happens the rest of the way. pherein likes this.

01-04-2012, 05:39 PM	#9
CharityMike Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Mid City, New Orleans Posts: 3,556	So here's a question, if they aren't going to announce the MVP until the week of the SB, am I to assume that is when it will be voted? If so, how awesome would it be for Drew to outshine Rodgers in the conference game? I'd say his chances would go way up.

01-04-2012, 05:43 PM	#10
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Originally Posted by CharityMike So here's a question, if they aren't going to announce the MVP until the week of the SB, am I to assume that is when it will be voted? If so, how awesome would it be for Drew to outshine Rodgers in the conference game? I'd say his chances would go way up. Thats where they stick their neck out. They voted yesterday (I think) so the MVP has already been decided. Personally I couldn't care less about who wins the NFL MVP. Halo likes this.

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