The debate about MVP

pherein · 01-04-2012, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers.

I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target.

But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me.

Yeah, its exactly why Brees has a much better completion record than Rogers. But, factor in could any of the other 2 QB's throw that many passes that accurately . I don't think so.
No one has ever done 70.1%, and Brees broke his own record this year. He is amazingly accurate.

I would say the most accurate QB I have ever seen in my life.

It is subjective and confusing. I think most fans don't even give MVP credence anymore, because it has no structure or logic. Most forums I am on of opposing teams debated and thought Brees should be MVP in 2008, 2009, because his stats were much better.
And most sports stats guys agree that Brees has been the best overall QB for 5 years now, not Brady, Manning, Warner, etc.. (well except Bradys 2007 season). But out of all of them Brees still doesn't have a single MVP. I think that is an amazing over site , and I think because Drew plays for the Saints, and not a Dynasty team he has been shunned a bit.

pherein · 01-04-2012, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Generally speaking I agree with this, but Drew is so damned deserving, and he's already been robbed for MVP multiple times.

He'd never say so, but I'm sure it's something he'd like to achieve.

Yep, its amazing when they look back and see that Drew was the best overall QB for so long and never got MVP. It should shame the the voters. Think , if we win our 2nd SB and he still doesn't have a MVP after dominating the Stats sense 2006? That makes the voters look very stupid.

Danno · 01-04-2012, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by pherein

Yep, its amazing when they look back and see that Drew was the best overall QB for so long and never got MVP. It should shame the the voters. Think , if we win our 2nd SB and he still doesn't have a MVP after dominating the Stats sense 2006? That makes the voters look very stupid.

Has he really been the best? I think Manning and Brady might have something to say about that.

saintfan · 01-04-2012, 09:08 PM

Brees would have three MVP awards by now if he played for a Big Market team or, for that matter, any team on the East Coast.

pherein · 01-04-2012, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Has he really been the best? I think Manning and Brady might have something to say about that.

yes he has been, look over the leader boards for single-season, you will be astonished at how many times Drews name is in the 1-5. If he's not on top of comp % he's on top of QB rating.

2011 NFL Leaders and Leaderboards - Pro-Football-Reference.com

click on "Previous Season" from this link and look for Brees, its amazing. He blows Manning out of the water. Some argue his 2007 deserved MVP.

Mardigras9 · 01-04-2012, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Brees would have three MVP awards by now if he played for a Big Market team or, for that matter, any team on the East Coast.

This is soooo true, but thank goodness he doesn't.

|Mitch| · 01-04-2012, 09:40 PM

3 MVP awards and we wouldn't be able to afford him this offseason...

Halo · 01-04-2012, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

3 MVP awards and we wouldn't be able to afford him this offseason...

True but NOT affording Drew ISN'T an option.

SaintsBro · 01-04-2012, 10:18 PM

This is what often gets overlooked: the pundits and media types did not pick Brees right out the gate to be a success: he just happened, when he wasn't supposed to happen. Therefore they will continue to overlook him for MVP, and make these inane "needs an asterix" type comments, and will even continue to slyly leave him out of conversations about great QBs where he obviously should be included....because acknowledging Brees' accomplishments, does not reflect the spotlight back on them, the media, where they feel it belongs.

What do Brady, Manning and Rodgers all have in common among them, that Brees does not. I'll tell you: they all began their careers in such a fashion that the media was able to jump right on board, after their first impressive year, and say "Look how great they are! We told you so first!" But Brees' early career is muddled; the media and sports writers can't say to the public that they knew it, and were his champion all along; they can't say they were "right" about Brees, because they were ALL clearly dead wrong about him and wrote him off. So I say that Brees will NEVER get the accolades from the big media complex, the kind of praise that they give to Brady and Rodgers and Manning. Because his story is not part of THEIR story, where the spotlight gets reflected back onto them, the media.

TheKillerBs · 01-04-2012, 10:34 PM

Here's the way I see it. in 2009 Brees lost the MVP to Manning, even tho he had better stats. They tried to make up for this by giving him "Offensive Player of the Year". So, why not do the same thing this year? Give Brees his due and let him have the MVP. Rodgers can be Offensive Player of the Year.

Also, I wonder if Sproles will get any MVP votes. He did have the most all-purpose yards of anyone EVER. That's pretty valuable...

01-04-2012, 07:08 PM	#21
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT I thought this was an astute analysis of Saints O-strategy vs. GBs & Lions O-strategy. GB/Lions have little or no run game and throw bombs (this is definitely true of the the Lions and less so, but also true of GB). The Saints read defenses and start carving them up with a variety of play types -- and when Brees sees a broken coverage down-field, bang! This is also probably why Brees' completion % is higher than Rodgers' even though Brees threw many more passes than Rodgers. I thought the point about reliance on receiver talent, in terms of the MVP award, was also right on target. But, what occurs to me about the MVP award, is that we don't know what criteria they are using to make the award, so, to me, it is almost impossible to make the right argument. I think, like you said, about Peyton Love versus Brees stats in 2008 and 2009, it just seems very subjective to me. Yeah, its exactly why Brees has a much better completion record than Rogers. But, factor in could any of the other 2 QB's throw that many passes that accurately . I don't think so. No one has ever done 70.1%, and Brees broke his own record this year. He is amazingly accurate. I would say the most accurate QB I have ever seen in my life. It is subjective and confusing. I think most fans don't even give MVP credence anymore, because it has no structure or logic. Most forums I am on of opposing teams debated and thought Brees should be MVP in 2008, 2009, because his stats were much better. And most sports stats guys agree that Brees has been the best overall QB for 5 years now, not Brady, Manning, Warner, etc.. (well except Bradys 2007 season). But out of all of them Brees still doesn't have a single MVP. I think that is an amazing over site , and I think because Drew plays for the Saints, and not a Dynasty team he has been shunned a bit.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before.

01-04-2012, 07:26 PM	#22
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by saintfan Generally speaking I agree with this, but Drew is so damned deserving, and he's already been robbed for MVP multiple times. He'd never say so, but I'm sure it's something he'd like to achieve. Yep, its amazing when they look back and see that Drew was the best overall QB for so long and never got MVP. It should shame the the voters. Think , if we win our 2nd SB and he still doesn't have a MVP after dominating the Stats sense 2006? That makes the voters look very stupid.

01-04-2012, 07:30 PM	#23
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Originally Posted by pherein Yep, its amazing when they look back and see that Drew was the best overall QB for so long and never got MVP. It should shame the the voters. Think , if we win our 2nd SB and he still doesn't have a MVP after dominating the Stats sense 2006? That makes the voters look very stupid. Has he really been the best? I think Manning and Brady might have something to say about that.

01-04-2012, 09:08 PM	#24
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Brees would have three MVP awards by now if he played for a Big Market team or, for that matter, any team on the East Coast. pherein and WHO_DAT_CAT like this.

01-04-2012, 09:12 PM	#25
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by Danno Has he really been the best? I think Manning and Brady might have something to say about that. yes he has been, look over the leader boards for single-season, you will be astonished at how many times Drews name is in the 1-5. If he's not on top of comp % he's on top of QB rating. 2011 NFL Leaders and Leaderboards - Pro-Football-Reference.com click on "Previous Season" from this link and look for Brees, its amazing. He blows Manning out of the water. Some argue his 2007 deserved MVP.
	Last edited by pherein; 01-04-2012 at 09:17 PM..

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01-04-2012, 09:38 PM	#26
Mardigras9 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Land Mass between LA and AL Posts: 4,375	Originally Posted by saintfan Brees would have three MVP awards by now if he played for a Big Market team or, for that matter, any team on the East Coast. This is soooo true, but thank goodness he doesn't.

01-04-2012, 09:40 PM	#27
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	3 MVP awards and we wouldn't be able to afford him this offseason... Halo and pherein like this.

01-04-2012, 09:42 PM	#28
Halo Site Donor MONTHLY Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 20,604 Blog Entries: 45	Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| 3 MVP awards and we wouldn't be able to afford him this offseason... True but NOT affording Drew ISN'T an option. pherein likes this.

01-04-2012, 10:18 PM	#29
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	This is what often gets overlooked: the pundits and media types did not pick Brees right out the gate to be a success: he just happened, when he wasn't supposed to happen. Therefore they will continue to overlook him for MVP, and make these inane "needs an asterix" type comments, and will even continue to slyly leave him out of conversations about great QBs where he obviously should be included....because acknowledging Brees' accomplishments, does not reflect the spotlight back on them, the media, where they feel it belongs. What do Brady, Manning and Rodgers all have in common among them, that Brees does not. I'll tell you: they all began their careers in such a fashion that the media was able to jump right on board, after their first impressive year, and say "Look how great they are! We told you so first!" But Brees' early career is muddled; the media and sports writers can't say to the public that they knew it, and were his champion all along; they can't say they were "right" about Brees, because they were ALL clearly dead wrong about him and wrote him off. So I say that Brees will NEVER get the accolades from the big media complex, the kind of praise that they give to Brady and Rodgers and Manning. Because his story is not part of THEIR story, where the spotlight gets reflected back onto them, the media.

01-04-2012, 10:34 PM	#30
TheKillerBs Thread Killer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hammond, LA Posts: 366	Here's the way I see it. in 2009 Brees lost the MVP to Manning, even tho he had better stats. They tried to make up for this by giving him "Offensive Player of the Year". So, why not do the same thing this year? Give Brees his due and let him have the MVP. Rodgers can be Offensive Player of the Year. Also, I wonder if Sproles will get any MVP votes. He did have the most all-purpose yards of anyone EVER. That's pretty valuable...

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