Keyou is Hungry
 

Ummmmm, being a musician it seems that you should know record sales does not equal talent level. I guess you think Nsync is an AAwwsomme band.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Wow Boccal, don\'t get me started on this one. Pearl Jam has been on tour constantly for the past 15 years. I\'m suprised you had no knowledge of the millions of live albums Pearl Jam sells at their shows. No, Pearl Jam hasn\'t released many CDs on major record labels. That\'s never what they\'ve been about.

Seriously though, as a musician, I\'m suprised you\'re using album sales as a measure of musical ability. You must play in a cover band.

All apologies for getting off topic.

[Edited on 14/4/2004 by Cadillac]

Keyou is Hungry
 

I think, no wait, yup, that was an aneurism.

you should be dragged through the streets and flogged for even uttering a rediculous comment like that. Need proof?

Pearl Jam Albums:
Ten (12x) Platinum
Vs. (7x) Platinum
Vitalogy (5x) Platinum
No code Platinum
Yield Platinum
Live on Two Legs
Platinum
Binaural Gold
Riot Act Gold
Lost Dogs Gold

Meanwhile, we\'ve got big bad ole Creed with
My Own Prison (6x) Platinum
Human Clay (11x) Platinum
Weathered (6x) Platinum

\"Ten\" killed \"Human Clay\", so care to retract that statement, or should I release the hounds of hell?

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ahhh, I see. This argument/discussion boils down to Creed vs. Pearl Jam....I go with Pearl Jam

Keyou is Hungry
 

Good call Boogro...Pearl Jam was the first CD i ever bought...I will never forget that Christmas...oh what a year...apparently this is not a Saints forum anymore...maybe we could get Kasey Kasem in here and play some good Top 40 music for us.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Creed is the only band I know of that has been sued by fans for putting on such a shi**y concert.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Well this thread has been officially hijacked, if I do say so myself.

This really must be a slow part of the offseason if we\'re debating Pearl Jam vs. Creed.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Come on now Saintsfan , I will even let you borrow my shovel and you can shovel some too...... :P

Keyou is Hungry
 

With posts like the two above this one, I\'m afraid a shovel simply won\'t do. Perhaps a backhoe or a front-end loader might suffice.

Ummm...Gatorman...I didn\'t make that name up. Are you really reading these posts? 08 quoted someone named \"Earnie the Attorney\"...and no, I\'m not kidding. As if I\'m supposed to read something from one of the 800,000 obscure forums 08 visits as fact? I just quoted the name man. Maybe you can discuss it with 08 eh?

Pizzed? Not in the slightest. I think it\'s funny how you and Whodat try and rescue one another. But...um...what is it that I said exactly anyway?


Indeed it is. There\'s only so much ya can say about the 3 technique after all (forgive me Danno ;) )

And finally...

Creed is for girls. :P

Keyou is Hungry
 

It is funny how this whole thing started by Keyou Craver playing playstation instead of shooting basketball. Funny the way things work out.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ahh how refreshing...Creed, Pearl Jam, and Yoda all on one discussion...thats just what i thought we would be talking about on a Saints forum...Almost as refreshing as a nice big snuff. I love Skoal. Anyone wanna talk about smokeless tobacco cause i wont lose that argument.

Keyou is Hungry
 

There you go again Saintfan. What did I do to get lumped in that? Generalize away my friend, I\'m proud to be grouped with Gator.

I\'m also happy to call you a friend. Yeah, a friend. All this cyber crap and people always say, \"you don\'t know me at all.\" I\'ve been talking to you and Pak and BnB and all the other clowns in here every day for two damn years. I know you, and despite our disagreements, I like you.

I\'m sorry if I pissed you off man - but please try not to generalize... unless you do it by using a funny name like the Sunshine Club!!! :P

PS - Brooks sucks and Haslett should be fired.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Some interesting thoughts can be found in those obscure forums .

Someday someone could quote a poster named Saintfan with an interesting thought , from an obscure sight like BandG . Seems rather improbable too me but it could happen .... ;)

[Edited on 15/4/2004 by saintz08]

Keyou is Hungry
 

OK, OK, OK...it appears as tho the three musketeers have joined forces yet again, so I\'d like to address Gatorman first. The other two of you will get your chance too.

Gatorman, you said Keyou\'s coming into camp heavy should mean something. On this I believe we agree -- but I\'m trying to say it\'s not an indictment of Haslett since Keyou is a grown man and should be able to motivate himself. It seems we disagree on exactly who\'s to blame. Do you agree or disagree?

I find it interesting that your comment on the whole \"Mickey Mouse\" thing was defended heartily by Whodat, but not you? Ultimately, neither of you ever posted anything to indicate that any player ever said that other than Kyle Turley. Rather than prove your point, you challenged me to go out and find players that didn\'t say it? I\'m guessing you were serious, but I can\'t image how... Gatorman, go find some quotes ok? You typed it. You find the proof. If you\'re gonna say it, then back it up. Don\'t ask me to prove otherwise for you. You said it...YOU defend it...with FACTS. I know players have left this organization because they were upset -- and for various reasons -- but players were leaving this organization (and others) for the same reasons before Haslett took over, and they\'ll continue to do it long after Haz is gone. Other organizations have the same problems, so to insinuate that the Saints are losing players (good players) because they have no faith in Jim\'s ability to coach is, in my opinion, a stretch. Find me ONE coach who didn\'t lose players for reasons OTHER than their on the field performance and I\'ll shut up about it. Until you do, you can expect me to call you on it when you insinuate such things.

OK, now on to Whodat, who said the following in a previous post:
I agree all these players had things to say before they left, but what exactly was it that they said. What bigger problems were they alluding to? I posted the following:
So, what about it Whodat. Didn\'t Joe Horn apologize? Wasn\'t Johnson upset over Money or specifically the negotiation process? Williams? Might a change in offensive philosophy have been his area of discontent? Roaf? What do we really know about Roaf\'s reasons for leaving? Do you have any solid proof...and quotes that indicate that any of these players indicated that Haz couldn\'t coach or that the Saints are a Micky Mouse organization? If you\'re gonna come to gator\'s defense then do it. Up to now you\'ve done no more than has he, which basically means more insinuations. Don\'t issue a challenge to ME to prove what YOU said. You prove me wrong.

As far as players developing, I agree that some players haven\'t developed like we all hoped they would. I also think there are some young players on this team that might show you guys something this year. All I can say to that end is time will tell. Whodat, you list all these players that Haz had last year as if they all played every down from start to finish. The fact is they didn\'t. There were injuries you know? Players for the most part take time to develop. Sure, Haz has draftet some guys that haven\'t planned out. Can you find me one coach you CAN\'T say that about? The FACT is that as the year went on and some of these players came back and had some time on the field together the defense played better. The Stats (I know you\'re fond of \'em Whodat) prove that do they not? Might they not impove even more this year...especially barring an injury attack similar to the one the team had to endure at the beginning of the previous season?

Now, finally, on to 08 who says that some interesting thoughts can be found in some of these obscure forums he visits.

Well, 08, I don\'t argue that. I might take issue with the accuracy you try and glean from them tho. You ONLY post other opinions it seems when they agree with yours. It\'s an old ploy I\'ve seen you use time and again. You\'re very subtle, and I give you points for being creative, but I don\'t give \"Ernie the Attorney\" as much weight as you would like for me to. What are his credentials?

Finally, to the three of you...I can\'t recall getting into a debate with any of you where the other two good buddies didn\'t chime in -- and I find that funny. You three quite simply have no hope for this team under Haslett\'s control. That\'s fine. I see your point, however I disagree with each of you in that regard. I\'m not pissed. I\'m not sure why Gator posted that. I\'m not sure why Whodat backed it up, but I have my suspicions. Either way, and as I said earlier, you guys can come with all the cute little nicknames you want, you can call me names all day long if it makes you feel better, but it doesn\'t change the fact that none of you can offer anything more than I can, which is an opinion. I try not to insinuate...I really do. When I see 08\'s conspiracy theories I ask him to prove them. When Whodat trys to use Stats to prove his point I try and counter that with stats of my own, and when Gatorman makes broad assumptions based on nothing more than his opinion/agenda I counter it by asking for proof -- and so far the only response is, \"well, I said it, now you go prove it\'s not true\". To steal a quote from Star Trek II -- \"I am laughing at the superior intellect.\" ;)

Feels like old times eh fellas?

Keyou is Hungry
 

Are you attempting to define Kyle Turleys \"Mickey Mouse Organization\"????????

So you think this is a bad idea? I wonder what Bill Parcells would say. hmmmm???

The flaw in this statement is \"players\"...plural. I know of ONE player...singular. I\'m still waiting on some quotes from other players (good ones).

He was speaking SPECIFICALLY of the youth on the team. He was not speaking of the organizations lack of ability to coach players. I can find the quote if you\'d require it...but be careful, because that quote/artice will disprove your statement.

Ummm, OK. Do you think Deuce\'s days in NO are numbered? Brooks? If you\'re speaking of Johnson, we offered him the same money -- he was upset at the negotiating process...same as Law is right now in New England. I guess the Partiots -- according to this logic -- are also a \"Mickey Mouse Organization\" too?

Keyou is Hungry
 

I think it should be noted that 1 player (Turley) said this team is a mickey mouse organization.
Another had many bad things to say about the team, but also said he was as good as Randy Moss. I think its safe to ignore this moron\'s comments.

If this current organization was so bad then why...
Why would a 1st class pro and high character guy like Ernie Conwell want to come here instead of stay in St Louis? The money was about the same. He was a teammate of Turley. Maybe he knew Turley was an idiot and discounted his comments about us.

Why would Wayne Gandy, a subperb person and professional come here if it were true?

Why would Terrell Smith say such nice things about the coach and organization AFTER leaving?

Why would Brian Cox, who will speak his mind in a flash, say such nice things about the Saints?

Why would Bryan Young, also a teammate of Turley, be so excited about coming here. Perhaps he also knows Turley\'s an idiot.

Why would Pease, a highly respected and sought after assistant choose to come here?

So basically we have an out of control hot-head and a dilusional back-up CB(and stud WR) as the only two players who have slammed this organization.

Hmmm, I think Mickey is in St Louis and Goofy is in Green Bay.



[Edited on 15/4/2004 by Danno]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Hmmmm, well I think that Huey, Dewey and Louie started for us at linebacker last year.

Keyou is Hungry
 

You guys are proving my point with the whole Tom Benson is cheap ! :exclam:

Keyou is Hungry
 

Gandy-Big contract, some say we overpaid
Brooks-Big contract, some say we overpaid
Horn-Big contract extension, some say we overpaid
Sullivan-Big contract, Huge signing bonus, some say we overpaid
Tebucky Jones-Big contract, Big Bonus, all say we overpaid
Conwell-Big contract
Sloan-Big contract, in hindsight, we overpaid
Thomas-Big contract (actually a bargain compared to other FA CB’s)
Haslet-Big contract extension, along with his assistants.
Howard-Big contract inevitable due to franchising
Pathon-Big contract, some say we overpaid for a #2WR
Lawyer Milloy-We wanted to match Buffalo’s Big contract
Kyle Turley-Offered Big contract, signed w/ St Louis for about the same.

2003-Highest salary team in the NFL
2002-Upper 1/3
2001-middle of pack

If I hear Benson is cheap one more time I’m gonna vomit my spleen.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Pearl Jam cheap or Creed cheap?

Keyou is Hungry
 

This is the point I\'ve been trying to make in this thread. I\'m still waiting for a quote from someone else (former Saints player) that said it. I\'ll be waiting a while I guess.

Keyou is Hungry
 

And it should also be noted that two of his teammates have now left that stellar organization to come to New Orleans.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Wanted to stay out of this one cause I\'ve got too many damn papers to grade... but I\'m like Pacino in Godfather III.

1.

Very funny. I laughed out loud and scared my class. Thanks for that.

2. Creed is our defensive line in 02; Pearl Jam is Warrick Dunn.

3. Gator, good to see ya. This place has missed ya.

4. I could kick Craver\'s rear-end in Madden.

5. May I please borrow the Lord Bong for a weekend?



[Edited on 15/4/2004 by whowatches]

Keyou is Hungry
 

\"NEW ORLEANS — Seven-time Pro Bowl offensive lineman Willie Roaf says he has irreconcilable differences with New Orleans coach Jim Haslett and would rather retire than play for the Saints. \"

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2002/02/...e_roaf_to.html

Google - took 2 seconds.

“Things were said between Coach and myself that I don\'t want to talk about,� Roaf said. “But let me clear up one thing: I want to play football next season, and I will do my best to play football next season. If I\'m not released, then I will retire. That\'s the worst-case scenario. The best-case scenario is that I\'m in a training camp with another team.�

Roaf said he would be willing to play elsewhere next season for $750,000, the minimum NFL salary for a 10-year veteran.

“All I want is what they owe me — $1.4 million — and then I\'ll go on my merry way,� Roaf said.


I\'m at work at the moment and don\'t have a ton of time to research all of this, but I found that inside of 30 seconds. Roaf doesn\'t say a word about his wife, Joe Horn, other players... he said JIM HASLETT. A seven-time Pro Bowler (9 now I think) said he would play for the league minimum to get out of NO and if he was forced to stay he would retire. You\'re right, it\'s just Turley. More to come Saintfan, more to come.

Keyou is Hungry
 

There was quite obviously a personal clash between the two Whodat, but I don\'t see anything in there about the Saints being a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization or Jim\'s ability to coach a football team. Do you? Roaf wanted out...no doubt about it, but the \"why\" is what neither of us will likey ever know.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Roaf said his recent problems with the Saints are due in part to his decision to rehabilitate his knee away from the team.

“I haven\'t talked to Willie in three months despite repeated attempts to get in touch with him,� Haslett said Thursday. “We wanted him to work out here under the guidance of our training staff like other injured players.�

Roaf said he was fined $53,000 at the end of the season. Haslett said the fine was levied because Roaf was not participating in supervised workouts.

Haslett said the team had “tried to open the lines of communication with Willie several times over the last three months, to no avail. And our message has always been the same. We want to help him get back to full speed.�

-Above is apart of the article you just posted. I\'d be on Haslett\'s side myself. I would want my top lineman rehabbing with my trainers at my facilities.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Also... real quick.

La\'Roi Glover on Dallas:

\"I didn\'t feel the same feeling as when I walked in the doors here,\"
Glover said, who has played in New Orleans the past five seasons after
spending his rookie season in Oakland.

http://lists.rollanet.org/pipermail/...11/025923.html

Will get more when I have the chance.

Keyou is Hungry
 

First of all, I said in an earlier post that Turley was the only one to actually use the words Mickey Mouse, but that others had bad things to say about the organization. If you are looking for those two words Saintfan, and are going to discount everything else as baseless, well, then I hope if I\'m ever in court you\'re on my jury, b/c you\'d need live streaming video of the event to convict me.

Secondly, spin things however you want. You don\'t hear players talking badly about Green Bay after they leave. When players talk about a coach, or a GM it reflects on the organization. The Raiders are Mickey Mouse right now b/c AL DAVIS has lost his marbles. That\'s not saying everyone there is an idiot, but there are players who have reservations about playing there. Just like there were players who had reservations about playing in Cincinnati for a long time. Believe it or not, even with these guys, money isn\'t all that matters. The ability to win and the expectation that they will be treated fairly and life will be enjoyable does factor in. To say it doesn\'t is foolish or naieve.

Keyou is Hungry
 

You predictably picked Roaf, the most unhappy human being on the planet at the time Whodat. We STILL don\'t know the whole story, and we never will. My point is that you\'re speculating. Did it (his leaving) have anything at all to do with Football? We will never know.

I\'m quite sure other players have left their respective team due to a personality conflict -- wouldn\'t you agree? Go find Joe Johnson\'s commens. Go find La\'Roi\'s comments. I\'m anxious to see what you dig up. While you\'re at it why don\'t you post Joe Horn\'s apology for his comments too. That way we\'ll get a FULL perspective on the situation rather than my assesment or the opinion held by you and Gator.

If we were to assume the Saints as a \"mickey mouse\" organization (which I definately do not) then hasn\'t it always been -- or is it just since Haz became the coach that you\'ve developed this opinion? More to the point is it Turley\'s attitude and Roaf\'s inability to get his house in order that has you thinking this way?... or are you just defending Gatorman cause he\'s your bud?

And what of the players Danno listed earlier? Why would those guys leave the Class of the league (according to Turley) to come ot New Orleans? Wouldn\'t they, too, rather retire or play for the league minimum than play for the Saints? I\'m not spinnin\' a thing Whodat...you\'re the spin doctor here.

Keyou is Hungry
 

See YOU see that as La\'Roi takin\' a parting shot at the Saints -- but I see that as La\'Roi speaking about Cleveland and Arizona. Anyone else wanna jump in here? Am I misreading this article or is the \"spin doctor\" tryin\' to pull another fast one? ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

In just sitting back and reading all of the debates on this thread...I would have to say that Saintfan, Danno and Boogro all made solid points and made the most sense to me. I havent made a post on this thread since the whole Pearl Jam thing started.

Skoal is delicious. There is my post.

Keyou is Hungry
 

http://www.flamehq.com/albums/wpw-8d/threadwontdie.jpg

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ummm...What \"Proof\" has Whodat provided? While he has done more in his effort to prove your point than you have, I still don\'t see any \"Proof\".

No, sir, I don\'t want/need names, dates, SS#\'s, Birth Cets, Depositions, or declarations from Benson (now you\'re just being silly). I just wanna see some proof to your statements -- that would be enough -- ANY proof. The standard is a quote from someone other than Kyle Turley indicating the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. So far you have Turley and Roaf...and honestly Roaf never indicated anything similar to the Saints being a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. He and Haz had personal issues, but then I suspect Roaf, at the time, had more personal problems than Mike Tyson, so really all you have so far is Turley. ANY attempt at proof of your statement at this point would be better than what you\'ve provided thus far.

Nice try, but I\'m not about to prove your point for you Gator...you made the statement, now either back it up or don\'t. The burden of proof is on you. So far I have every player in the NFL that EVER played for the Saints so called \"Mickey Mouse\" organization until YOU prove otherwise.

Finally, I\'m not challenging every post -- only those that smell of biased speculation and an agenda -- and at this particular moment that post was posted by you.

Not exactly original there Gatorman, but you KNOW you wanna puff. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

As Gatorman\'s attorney, I will enter the following comments:

\"We rescind our previous statement that referred to the New Orleans Saints organization as being a \'Mickey Mouse\' organization. In its place we will replace those comments with the following: The New Orleans Saints organization is poorly run. It\'s main directors, including but not limited to Jim Haslett and Mickey \'Mouse\' Loomis, are a large part of the reason that the Saints are run inefficiently.\"

TO date, we have entered the comments by former players Kyle Turley, William Roaf, and La\"roi Glover as evidence.

To date the defense, lead by Billy \'Danno\' Saintfan esquire, have entered exactly ZERO comments or evidence made by any third party to support their position. Instead, they enter only opinion.

Saintfan, care to enter any information to the contrary? No? Just want to attack our evidence? OK, for the second time in this thread I guess you\'ll just tell us that your opinion is baseless and materialized via pixie dust and WhoTang.

\"My grounds Whodat, are my opinions. That is all. \" - Saintfan

Keyou is Hungry
 

Gatorman needs a new lawyer. Where\'s all this Media stuff you mentioned. Where are all these players quotes you said you\'d be back in here with. What you have is Turley, and disgruntled Roaf and a highly debateable comment from la\'Roi...one you\'re spinning in an attempt to fit your agenda sir. I\'m no where near convinced. Now you wanna changed the post by Gator to read something to the effect of \"poorly run\". Got any quotes to back that up? Where are they?

Again, I\'m not here to prove Gator\'s point for him, and you\'re foolish to try. I\'m saying I haven\'t heard this stuff, and you and Gator say you have. Where is it. Is it in the Roaf article -- I see him upset as Haz, but I don\'t see him takin\' shots at the Saints organization as \"Poorly Run\" or as a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. I don\'t see that in La\'Roi\'s comments either. Wasn\'t there supposed to me more Whodat? Where is it?

I\'m saying your evidence stinks...you bet I am. And I don\'t HAVE to enter anything to the contrary, although others in this thread already have. I\'m guessing you overlooked it. I\'m not surprised. Gator said it, let him defend it -- or if you wanna defend it then go for it -- but you\'ll need something more that insinuation and speculation to PROVE your points Whatdat, and up to know the both of you are failing miserably ;)

In fact that\'s true, and as I\'ve said before -- I could be wrong, but I\'m not about to make things up or spin the truth to support them. Speculatoin is one thing -- we all do it -- it\'s part of being a fan; however, to insinuate your (gator\'s) speculation is FACT is another animal entirely. I\'m lookin\' for some proof. Gator could say he was mistaken. He won\'t. He continues to effort in the direction of the spin. So do you. That\'s ok. Still waitin\' on all these other quotes you said you\'d find.

Whether my opinion is or isn\'t, it sure seems as though your \"Facts\" are. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Seriously Gatorman...you\'re attacking me because you failed to prove your pittiful little comment about the Saints being a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. This \"Defend AB and Haz\" stuff you accuse me of is close, but not quite. I see flaws in everybody -- the difference is I see flaws in EVERYBODY. You, and 08, and Whodat specifically place the Saints record at the foot of AB and Haz. I can\'t recall either of you commenting about missed blocks on the line (AB runs for his life) or dropped passes (back when Billy and me were the only two on this board willing to acknowledge it) etc, etc.

Read every one of your posts in this thread for your proof. You don\'t like AB and you don\'t like Haz and your agenda is that you want \'em gone. That\'s fine...we all have our opinions sir, but you post speculation as fact in an attempt to further your view. That\'s the real issue. How many times do I have to point that out to you before you get it?

Thank you. At least you can see that much. My agenda is fair play and a fair representation of the facts.

What experience do you have that I\'m discrediting? I don\'t believe everything the media says. Specific comments? You mean the ones you\'ve failed to provide? Yes, I\'d like to see those. ...still waiting. You haven\'t posted one yet, and only Whodat has tried.

If you could prove what you say is fact, and if you were big enough to admit that perhpas you overshot the honest to goodness truth then perhaps you\'d qualify as a \"know it all\", but at this point you don\'t make the grade.

I\'m sure I could if I thought about it long enough. I could also name 5 good moves made by Haz and 5 good moves made by the Saints. Forgive me for not seeing your point. I\'m quite sure any of us could name 5 bad moves for ANY coach in the NFL in the last 4 years as well as 5 bad moves made by each franchise...whadda you say to that? Do you agree or disagree? You keep trying to skirt the real issue here Gatorman, which is that you posted your opinion as fact and you can\'t back it up with evidence. Man, the more you dig the deeper the hole becomes.

Absolutely false. Read my posts. Go back and quote any of them for me. You\'ll see that I merely include luck and bad calls as an unfortunate part of the game not controlled (entirely) by the head coach. Man you\'re REALLY reaching now.

I realize you two (among others) are frustrated. Heck man we all are, but some of this stuff you guys type is pure speculation...in other words, yeah, you dreamed it up. If you didn\'t it wouldn\'t be so dang hard for the two of you to find proof would it?

Umm..yes, I have. My specific comment here is that you and Whodat can\'t backup what you assume with facts. That\'s my whole reason for participating in this thread.

What, then, do you call making up lies or mis-representing the truth or failing to recognize each factor relative to the situation to express yourself Gatorman? Honorable?

You betcha buddy. Bad luck. The Saints have been knee deep in it. Injuries. They do matter in spite of what 08 would have you think. Bad Calls...if you don\'t think they determine the outcome of games then why is there this thing called instant replay? And lets not forget youth. I\'m a firm believer that players must learn how to win. Now, I\'m not saying those are the only things (which is what you indicate in your post...but you\'re obviously not really reading what I\'m typing)...I\'m saying those things are factors. Some of you blame the whole thing on Haz and/or AB, conveniently dismissing all the external factors that make a football team successful.

There you have it. That\'s how I feel. Nothing assusmed. No mis-quotes. No mis-representations. No agenda other than the truth. If you disagree, then find someone honest to share it with and see what they think about that last paragraph...and while you at it, I\'m still waiting on proof of the following statement:

It\'s been DAYS now Gatorman...where\'s the proof eh?


Saintfan\'s question to Gatorman: Do you think Haz can\'t coach the talent he has or is it that you think he just doesn\'t have any talent on the team?

Gatorman\'s Answer: SHORT ANSWER: BOTH

And then a few posts further into the thread:

Gatorman: The Saints do has talent.

So either you think they do or you think they don\'t. It\'s really one or the other eh?

Pick a side of the fence dude. I don\'t care which one, but it looks bad to stumble back and forth. Ultimately Gator, you don\'t HAVE to prove anything to me, but I have to admit is entertaining to see you blow up like this and not be able to validate what you said. Watching you attempt to shift the focus of the discussion (very much like my current girlfriend does) is worth the trouble. No harm done here. I knew what I was getting into on page one of this thread, just like I knew Whodat would do all in his power to rescue you. The agenda must be defended at all costs, circumstantial evidence or otherwise. The two of you are to be commended for your persistance, but the truth remains: There is still no proof of your statements posted here, and there won\'t be because it doesn\'t exist...but again, I could be wrong. If I\'m wrong, PROVE IT TO ME and stop asking me to prove your point for you, please. It doesn\'t reflect well on either of you! ;)



Moderator note :

This is not a laundry mat .
Debate
But we do not air dirty laundry here .....






[Edited on 16/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 16/4/2004 by saintz08]

Keyou is Hungry
 

First of all, I\'d like to see this thing reach 4 pages...lol...Second, maybe I don\'t belong in this argument but I am going to throw in my opinion anyway...You can look at every team in the NFL and name 5 bad calls by the coach and the organization...We do have talent on this team...Young talent and it will get better...Do I think the Saints are a Mickey Mouse organization? absolutely not! If you believe that there in no talent on this team (and I am not saying you do), that I your opinion...If we didn\'t have talent, our coach sucked, quarterback sucked then we would be picking in the top 7 or so every year. Since Haslett started coaching this team, we never had a pick in the top 10 (without trading up). We missed the playoffs the last 3 years by 1 or 2 games...Last year, injuries killed us the first half of the season and you can say it was bad luck...Inconsistensy from the wideouts didn\'t help either...Brooks did his job and the recievers didn\'t come through at times...That\'s not his, Haslett\'s, or Loomis\' fault...Fred Thomas could have easily went to a Superbowl contender and chose to stay with us...You don\'t need quotes or articles to prove anything...That says a lot to me, when a player has been on a team that hasn\'t made it to the playoffs the last 3 years and gets an offer to go to an automatic Superbowl contender and turn around to sign back with the Saints...That\'s proof in itself...As far as Turley goes, everyone loved him cause he didn\'t take no crap and played like an animal and the main reason people loved him is cause that everyone hated him except for Saint fans...I remember him calling out St. Louis (no, I don\'t have the frickin article) and now turns around and he\'s just so happy to be in St. Louis. Funny how that works out. You can put Turley\'s character in question also...It\'s not like Turley is the true professional that goes out with class. If he would have said, \"The Saints are a first class organization and Haslett is one of the best coaches in the NFL, \" would you believe it? No, because people only want to hear or read about the negative things. That\'s all I have to say, agree or don\'t agree, I don\'t care.

Keyou is Hungry
 

I think the Saints have done a good job of builiding a young team. Other than Turley and Ricky Williams...there arent many other players in the league having much success that are left over from the Ditka days. They have finally filled this team with NFL calibut players. No, not all of them have developed the way they should have for one reason or another but at least this team has athletes now instead of players who didnt even belong in the NFL. This group of guys leading this organization should be praised for the work they have done rebuilding this franchise.

That is evidenced by the fact that all of you out there think the Saints should be in the playoffs every year when that wasnt at all the case the previous 7 to 10 years before these guys took over. Everyone knew the teams we had in the last years of the Mora regime and throughout the entire Ditka regime were gonna be terrible. Now, we all expect Haslett to get us to the playoffs every year because he has brought in much better players and the Saints arent that far off from being a serious contender.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Collapses are overrated.

Keyou is Hungry
 

[/quote:48de25cf13]There were some great moments and great games and great plays. ALL OVERSHADOWED BY POOR PLAY AND STUPID MISTAKES [/quote:48de25cf13]

Like I said before, people only want to talk about the negatives