Keyou is Hungry
 

First of all, I\'d like to say that I have read articles at NOLA.com, saints report, neworleansprofootball, this site, Saints revolution and if there are any more sites you know of, I\'d be glad to look at them. I have read all what the media, former players, and anyone else has said about his organization. I do see improvemnet from this ball club. It may be slower than others, but we are improving. Brooks has been improving and I can\'t expect him to have the fumbles every year like he did last year. His interceptions were low. We have one of the best running backs in the game today and he has plenty years ahead of him. Expect a big turn around from our recievers. We have one of the best interior lines in the NFL (in my opinion) and two solid tackles. Boo Williams is keeping the weight on and can have an exceptional year. We have a young defensive line with a lot of talent. It\'s just too bad it takes a D-lineman longer to develop than almost any other position. Our D-line will be the key of our success next year. I am with Haslett when says its going to take time. I really do believe that. This is the first year we didn\'t have a big over-haul so its going to be interesting how these guys play together and trust one another. The only problem I have with Haslett at times is when he gets challenge-happy. One area that no one is talking about right now that was a big disappointment last year was special teams. Michael Lewis was terrible, as was Carney. Berger was the only bright spot on special teams and he is very underrated in my mind. So, we do have a lot of things going good for us.

Keyou is Hungry
 

yeah...what he said.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Main you guys are still harping on this thread, it just won\'t go away.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ummm, gee Gator, my comments are often opinions -- so are yours -- but there\'s a difference in this case. You attempt to post your opinion as some sort of undeniable truth (See the \"quite a bit\" statement you made) and therein, sir, is the difference.

You indicated, of your own accord, that I think you\'re a \"know it all\". Let us not forget that you said it, not I. In fact, I think quite the opposite. ;) Whether you think so or not, I try to be reasonable. My opinions are just that...opinions...and I post them as such. When you insinuate something and then get pissy when someone calls you on whether it\'s truthful or not and continue to argue the point without any evidence and refuse to admit it\'s merely your opinion rather than factual indicates you have an agenda. Honestly now...do you really disagree with me on that, or are you simply arguing for the sake of the argument?

OK, OK -- ONE MORE TIME for those of you way up yonder in da cheap seats. YOU made the statement. The burden of proof rests on YOUR shoulders. Honestly, there have been PLENTY of posts in this thread that indicate the Saints aren\'t a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. See Gator, if I say something like, \"the saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization, and this is being said quite a bit by the fans, players, and the media\", then I might be expected to prove this with actual quotes from fans, players, and the media. Since YOU made a similar statement to the contrary YOU get to prove you\'re not full of big red beans. Why is that so difficult for you to get wrapped around? Isn\'t the FACT that you haven\'t posted a single solitary quote to support your statement a great big \'ol RED FLAG? Well, I think it is.

Well, yes -- and no. I do think you have an agenda, based on your attacks on both Brooks and Haz...based specifically on your willingness to hold those two individuals solely responsible for the Saints record while refusing to acknowledge other factors which I believe help determine the outcome of a football game. So, yes, sir, I do think you have an agenda. I don\'t deny I have an agenda, and again I don\'t think you\'re reading everying I\'m typing. Go back a few posts and READ what I typed about my own agenda and what it is. Quote it for me here will ya? Then explain how you can type, \"yet you deny you have an agenda yourself.\"

If you wanna defend your integrity, then admit the truth, which is the \"quite a bit\" statement was an assumption -- not a fact.
Yes, you are expressing your feelings about the Saints, and indeed I am expressing my feelings about your comments about the Saints. We agree. My feelings about your recent comments is that they are largely based on your opinion -- not facts. This is what got the whole thing started is it not? Still waitin\' on that proof Gator. Whodat even jumped in attempting to help you prove your statements...still waiting...

The proof that supports my opinion in this particular debate Gatorman is your lack of evidence. Perhaps you never tried to find the quotes you assumed, but it appears as though Whodat did. In fact, so did I, and neither of us came up with anything to prove your case. There\'s the PROOF for my side of the debate. You made the statement and up to now there has been no evidence to support it. Again, I find it laughable that you never even tried...or perhaps you did...and maybe your search came up empty just like mine (and Whodat\'s) did. For the record, It appears as tho most people participating in this thread (a) like Skoal (me too) (b) don\'t like Creed (me too) and (c) don\'t agree with YOUR (and Kyle Turley\'s) assesment that the Saints are a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization. To quote Bill O\'Reilly, \"What say you, sir?\" How can I possibly show you the proof that your statement resides in the FACT that there isn\'t any evidence to support it. Whadda you want me to do Gatorman, post air? ;)

JimBone, I couldn\'t agree more.

Not all people Boogro. But I can think of three right off the top of my head.

This from a guy who was upset when the Saints beat the Falcons because they didn\'t beat \'em by enough points to make him happy. I\'ll find the post Gatorman if you really want me to.

Look Gator, you know I enjoy a good debate as well as anybody, and I\'ve had it handed to me a time or two, and I\'ve even dined on crow, but in this case that won\'t be happening. The BOTTOM LINE here is yes, we all have our opinions. This is a forum. We post our opinions and we debate \'em. The thing is that you posted some comments here that are your opinions...not facts...I\'ve called you on it and asked for proof and as of yet you haven\'t been able to provide any. Now, I\'m not the truth police, but since I happen to have a different view on what you posted I\'ve asked for proof. The evidence that supports my opinion here is the lack of evidence that supports yours.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Someone define the term \"Mickey Mouse Organization\" .

Certainly there has been a few players in the league and over the years that have left the Saints in some way or another and have voiced their displeasure with the Saints and how the organization handled things .

Horn - vocal on how Delhomme was overlooked
Turley - On how he was fed and contractual talks
Johnson - Contractual
Roaf - displeased
Williams - contractual issues and respect issues
Martin - Contractual
Hebert - Contractual
These are a few Pro Bowlers that have expressed displeasure with the organization .

Keyou is Hungry
 

And this would be different from ANY OTHER organization in the NFL exactly how? :casstet:

As far as Delhomme being overlooked...he was so overlooked he wasn\'t even drafted...and Ditka cut him once or twice. Looks like Haz is in pretty good company in that regard eh? But leave it to you to somehow get Delhomme into the discussion. Are you two married yet? :P

According you you, 08, Turley, Johnson, Martin, and Hebert were all upset regarding their contracts. Exactly how does this (a) go anywhere near defining the Saints as a \"Mickey Mouse\" organization or (b) reflect on Jim\'s ability to coach football -- seeing as how Gatorman thinks he needs to be fired.

Yes, Roaf was displeased...about what exactly none of us will never know, because Willie never would really say.

So, is it your point that there have been some disgruntled Saints players over the years? In fact that has already been established...further it has also been established that every other team in the history of the NFL has had disgruntled players -- for issues that have nothing to do with football.

You musketeers are amazing. Wrong, but amazing nonetheless.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ok, so I just spent about half an hour reading this post to see why it is still here and why it is 4 pages. Now, I laughed a lot, and that was good, but I\'m also concerned about where this is going. It seems to me to need two things: (1) Evidence, and (2) Methodological structure.

I think some evidence has been provided. In fact, WhoDat offered some good stuff in a few earlier comments. Some of that evidence is in question (i.e. Glover\'s comment - I guess I can\'t understand why you think what he said is BAD about the NO org?), and other evidence is in the form of an argument (i.e. talent + good coaching = playoffs, no playoffs, therefore either no talent or no coaching). The evidence in the form of an argument requires reply - and actually, I\'m pretty sure we\'ve all had this debate before (except the new kids - welcome by the way). I think Saintfan\'s skepticism wrt the comments made by players is warranted (in fact, Danno provided some evidence to the contrary) - that is, players who have actually disparaged the organization are currently not sufficient to make the point that the organization has the Mickey Mouse property. However, WhoDat\'s argument (and I suppose Gator\'s too - since they seem to agree here, and I am too lazy to look back and see who said it first) has not been properly addressed here (but I do think it has been addressed before).

Boogro, please learn to use paragraphs and spacing. I like the things you say, but they are VERY hard to read.

As far as methodology, it would all be helpful if we used a simple \"burden of proof\" rule: if you advance a claim, the other guy gets to ask you to prove it, you do not then get to ask him to prove the assumptions he uses to ask the question. Thus, if you advance a claim that isn\'t obvious to everyone, they get to ask you why you think it. If you give that evidence, then you are done. If you want to make a new point, start a new thread - this way we won\'t get dragged into these posts that simply rehash everything everyone has said over the course of this web-page (and I think we\'ll avoid some of this \"agenda\" stuff - get over it, everyone has a way of coloring the \"fact\" whether intended or not, without such coloring, we probably would have no way of understanding the facts at all - without background assumptions the following sorts of sentences make no sense \"he had 10 catches in his \'97 campaign\").

Anyway, after I spent all this time reading this, I felt it was my duty to put in my two cents.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Thats just my game.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Nice post Jkool
A few pages back I ask some simple questions, and have yet to get any answers.
I smell an agenda. OK, thats fine... it appears the object of contention is Haslet and Loomis.
I don\'t understand the contradiction though. Haslet has a talented team but can\'t coach them so he needs to go, and Loomis can\'t bring in any talent for Haslet to coach, so he must go.
Everyone\'s agenda is watering down the beer. If I wanted watered down beer I\'d buy Coors light!

I\'ll pose my questions again, since they were basically ignored earlier. Which also imply\'s that what we really have here is yet another pissin contest by some hard-headed Hoffenheimers instead of actual meaningful dialogue. Its cool though, I\'ve been in a few myself, and I\'m as hard headed as anyone. Well maybe not as much as some.

Keyou is Hungry
 

You\'re damn right. Haslett is the head coach and AB is supposed to be the \"leader of this team.\" Who the hell else is to blame for their record? Missed blocks? Dropped passes? If it were one player you would fire that player. When it happens broadly across the team, that\'s the COACH\'S fault. If his players don\'t play to expectations, he is to blame. Period. If you don\'t think that\'s true then you must be watching Canadian football, b/c that\'s how things work in the NFL... IN MY OPINION.

Every post of mine from now on must have the words \"in my opinion\" I guess. Otherwise, by Saintfan\'s standards we\'re trying to forward an agenda and pass opinion as fact. We make strong statements, but neither of us have said that our comments are absolute truths. Apparently it is just magically known by all the other posters on this board that Saintfan\'s comments are totally speculative and opinion, ours are ... oh wait, aren\'t you attacking us for being speculative and opinionated? Hhhmm. Now I\'m really confused. --- \" this stuff you guys type is pure speculation...in other words, yeah, you dreamed it up.\"


Fantastic Gator. You cannot more clearly show the double standards that Saintfan uses every day in here.


OK, I\'ll try something else. Forget what the players have said, they are obviously all just hateful lunatics that wanted to help Gator and I further our agenda. By your own admission, this is one of the most talented Saints teams ever. Our record is .500 over the last 3 seasons. The ONLY explanation you have given for that thus far is bad luck. You think we\'re reaching?!?!?! Bad luck is your defense for Haslett. OK, you\'re right. We should put our agenda to rest. LMAO. That\'s weak as hell. I expect more than that.

Keyou is Hungry
 

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!
WILL SOMEBODY ANSWER MY ******** QUESTIONS?
[/quote:8788e728d8]

[Edited on 18/4/2004 by saintz08]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Probably had something to do with money. Imagine that in the NFL. Mind blowing I know. Of course, that is just SPECULATION. You two blast us for speculating and now you want us to answer questions about the reason some person we\'ve never met made a decision?? OK - Gator can you please add that to the list as double standard number 5?

I\'m tired of you passing off your opinion and speculation as fact. I will need at least five sources to confirm that comment.

Hhhmm. Money? Again. Oops - speculation. I can tell you why the two previous left tackles left though. They left b/c they disliked the coach and team\'s general management and direction. That IS a fact - unless of course we assume that their comments made in the national media were lies that they entered simply to further an agenda... isn\'t that right Saintfan?

I\'m going to need proof showing me that he actually said anything. Thanks.

See above.

Again money - again YOU ARE SPECULATING. Tisk, tisk.

Money, but then again, that\'s speculation.



[Edited on 17/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Finally...Answers. Pretty weak answers but I\'ll take what I can get.
Baby steps WhoDat, baby steps.
I\'ll address your responses later. The money was about the same for many of the players you listed money as their reasons for signing.
It\'ll take me a while to verify all my quotes, but I feel I have earned a reputation for NOT posting B-S. I\'m truly hurt by your skepticism. Well, not like a \"feelings\" hurt, that would be kinda Garcia gayish ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

i honestly feel that if Haslett does not WIN a playoff game this year, he\'s on the first thing smoking out of town. I feel that last year should have been it for him, as he is not the man he pretended to be in 2000.

Keyou is Hungry
 

That was a lucent, well thought out defense....but i am gonna have to rule with the other guys. I know you have your opinion gator and i say keep saying whats on your mind, I do, but this has gone on long enough. Haslett hurt himself by winning in the first year with a less than adequate team. I wouldnt trade that season in for anything. It was magical witnessing the Saints beat the Rams in the playoffs in the Dome with 5 of my closest friends. I know if was four years ago, but that season was made possible by the decisions and coaching of Jim Haslett. Simply put, he had all backups and he brought something to this city that no other man ever did. He won a playoff game for the Saints. It never happened before or since, but it Haslett can do it again and i am willing to bet that he will.

I do know that i can back up some of what they are saying in that Bryan Cox repeatedly speaks well of the Saints on NFL 2nite. He even picked them to win the division when they were 1-3. I do remember him saying that Haslett will get those guys turned around.

I did not record it so i cant prove it, but i know it happened. Just like the first time i had sex. I am pretty sure it happened, i dont care what she says.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Looks like the act of a desperate Man Gatorman. You really are a funny guy. You\'ve failed miserably to prove your point...even with Whodat and 08\'s help, so now you appeal to the masses. Laughable sir.

Now, either you think Haz has no talent on the team or you think he does and he can\'t coach it. How in the world can you possible think that\'s a trick question? I don\'t think you do. I think you got busted in your original overzealous (typically) response and now you\'re crawfishin\' badly...that\'s what it looks like to me.

The isn\'t a battle between me and you sir, no matter how many times you call me \"Lord Bong\". This an issue related to the FACT that you can\'t back up what you posted as something we should all percieve (according to you) as an obvious fact. You have failed to prove your point, miserably. It\'s not about me being right. It\'s about you posting opinion as fact. You just don\'t get it. Funny...
I\'m not attacking your views (I still don\'t think you\'re reading my posts). I am attacking the way you insinuate your opinion is help by everyone pretty much other than me. Read though all the posts on this thread and I think you\'ll see otherwise. Well, MOST people (those reading and willing to accept what they see) would see otherwise...you I wonder about.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. YOU made the statement...YOU get to defend it. DUDE, that\'s just the way the world works. Don\'t hate the player, hate the game. ;)
You\'re witnessing one right now. You can\'t prove your point. This is not my fault as much as you might think otherwise.

If that\'s all you were doing this thing wouldn\'t be 4 pages and growing. You stating your opinion as fact.

There\'s so much more I could say, but you appear to be too hardheaded to get the point, so, I\'ll just sit back and wait for this evidence you claim exists. You have appealed to the masses and still you\'re point remains unproven. I know you well enough to know that hurts you Gator....but it\'s ok. Crow doesn\'t taste so bad if you chew it fast enough. Take my word for it. I know. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

I\'m going need quotes from the girl which I will discredit her as a liar. Then I\'ll need pictures which I\'ll discredit as proof. Furthermore, I will use ZERO proof to discredit all of your statements WITH SOLELY MY OPINOIN.

I will never show you pictures of her. Not much to brag about. In fact, she was a striking resemblence to some sort of sea donkey. The pictures are mine and you will never get your paws on her filthy draws.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Saintfan: \"The Saints have a lot of good young talent and it has developed pretty well.\"
Saintfan: \"Jim Haslett is a good coach.\"

WhoDat: \"Then why aren\'t the Saints better than .500?\"

Saintfan: \"Bad luck.\"

Guys, if this is what you want to believe go ahead. It\'s at best a wishful stance to take if you ask me. But I\'ll ask the same question I asked earlier in the thread when I made a Tombstone reference...

Let\'s assume Haslett is just a poor guy who is really unlucky, does it not still affect the team? Isn\'t Haslett\'s bad luck then the reason that we\'re .500? What matters - that we win or that the coach we have is capable? I\'d rather have the luckiest moron in the world and be 11-5 every year than the unluckiest capable coach that makes us 8-8. At some point, results matter. If Haslett is just unlucky than that\'s a sad story, but not sad enough to justify hurting this team and its fans year in and year out.

Sure, Haslett is the coach again this season - there\'s no denying that. I\'ll bet you guys a lot that if the Saints are 8-8 in 2004 there will be certain members on this board still trying to tell you he\'s a good coach and why he deserves yet another year.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Come on now WhoDat , I get some serious Saintsfan airtime here too , and for the most part I would not have it any other way .... ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Gator, Gator, Gator -- the majority of your comments in this thread haven\'t been about that statement you made, rather they\'ve been about me. Personal attacks if you will. I\'m not attacking you man, I\'m attacking your statement and you lack of either the willingness or the ability to prove it.

The FACT is that\'s not what you typed. The words \"quite a bit\" change the whole scope of your statement. I read it, and I said to myself, \"There goes Gatorman again. I think I challenge him on that statement and see if he can prove it.\" Since you seem to think so poorly of me, and since you\'re trying to switch the focus of the whole debate, I thought I\'d give you a little insight. There you have it. I think (I said to myself) I\'ll challenge that statement.

True, Turely said it. He\'s your ally (along with Whodat and 08). So far no one has offered any proof that anyone else did. Glover said no such thing. How about you post that Glover quote Whodat posted and let the masses decide, since you\'ve employed the masses here in an effort to discredit me personally. Post it again and lets let folks interprit it. In other words, how brave are ya?

Dang right it\'s not a fact. Dang right it\'s your opinion...and Whodats, and 08\'s. It\'s the \"quite a bit\" part of your statement that get\'s to me. So, then, am I to assume that You, Whodat and 08 define \"quite a bit\". Maybe if I\'d known that going in I wouldn\'t have challenged you, but since I didn\'t (and since I\'d bet that\'s not what you were implying) I asked for proof. At the very least at least now I know none is forthcoming. ;)

Umm, well Gator, that\'s not what you posted. You\'re slick \'ol boy, but you aint\' that slick. Go back and quote the actual statement and then explain to me how you can post the above and think you\'re actually being honest. I didn\'t misinterpret anything. I read the post, word for word, and I challenged it.

Where did I fail? You don\'t like Haz. Fine. You don\'t want to look at the whole picture. You think a new coach would suddenly fix penalties, dropped passes, missed blocks (See Kyle Turley) strange calls, general unfortunate luck and injuries. That\'s ok. That\'s your opinion and you\'re right. I disagree. On the other hand, your \"mickey mouse\" comment, where you indicated it\'s being said \"quite a bit\" by media, fans, and players, was an attempt to insinuate that there\'s this large number of people besides you and Turley and Whodat and 08 that are saying that. There isn\'t. You\'re lack of ability to find ANYONE who said it is all the proof I need. Yes, Gator, I did go look for some comments but I failed to find any. So did Whodat, and so did 08. What\'s so hard for you to understand. You posted that as something we\'re all aware of. We\'ll some of us aren\'t...and we still aren\'t, because it\'s not true. It might be your opinion, but it\'s not true, and that\'s what I was trying to accomplish when I decided to challenge your statement...same thing I\'ve done in the past...same thing you\'re done in the past...get it yet?

I really don\'t care what you say Gator. As you have accurately pointed out, this is a forum for discussion and debate. Say what you will, but be prepared to be asked to back up your statements...especially if you post opinion as fact. You may not like the fact that I asked you to prove what you said -- Oh well. Next time it may be someone else that asks you for proof. Maybe you\'ll attack them personally like you\'ve attacked me here. We\'ll see.

Jeesh Gator. See JKool\'s post cause I\'m obviously not getting through to you. YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT. It\'s not MY job to prove it it\'s YOURS.

Well, I travel around the country and install automation computer for radio and tv stations. This is important exactly how? I\'m no lawyer for sure...and for sure neither are you! ;)

When did we become friends? Was it before you got banned and I voted for your return or was it after you begged to get me banned? Remind me, cause I forgot. For the record, I disagree, respectfully, but that\'s not the point. The whole point is you can\'t prove your statment and DAYS ago, when you could have said it was just your opinion, you were STILL trying to insinuate that it was a fact. Still no proof. Yes, I disagree...respectfully.

Remember \"pot meet kettle\"? Remember Lord Bong? Need I say more, because I can if you require it. I\'m just that kinda guy. ;)

Now that IS a lie. I can prove it too. Do you want me to prove it / discredit you in front of all these people? I won\'t do that to you unless you really want me to.

Whodat and I have been knee deep in it, that\'s true. 08 and his conspiracy theories are legendary, and I have challenged each and every one of them...that is true, and yes, there has been some name calling done by me...and by Whodat...and by 08 as well. Need proof of that, cause I can sure provide some for you, yet your post my lend one to think that I\'m the only one doing the name calling. What am I about Gatorman. I\'m about asking people who, in my opinion, aren\'t being fair when they place the woes of the entire organization at the foot of Jim Haslette and Aaron Brooks, to prove their statements. I happen to disagree, and so when folks post things like your \"quite a bit\" statement I\'m all about asking where it came from. WHO said it. WHEN did they say it. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with a debate. You may not like my style -- I may not like yours. Let\'s just make sure we\'re being complete -- dare I say accurate -- when you insinuate something about me ok? I can and will gladly show proof of your not-so-nice behavior as well as name calling by Whodat, 08 and lots of others...I bet I can find some by you too...as recent as this thread. ;) Wanna try me?

I\'m not treating you any differently that you\'ve treated me...and others...and history will prove that. I\'m not angry at all...again I think this is funny. We can move on...there isn\'t gonna be any proof. This whole discussion has shifted to me somehow. Whodat is attacking me, 08 is getting sarcastic again. Same stuff, different day. We\'re going through all of this because you keep posting on this thread and I keep responding with the same request. It\'s not coming. I would give up but I don\'t like to give up, so if you keep attacking me I\'ll keep responding and we\'ll see how long we can keep it going.

And now on to Whodat:

Nice try Whodat, but I said Bad Luck is a factor. I believe that it is, and I don\'t think Jim Haslette controlls luck one way or the other. You may not think it\'s a factor, but I certainly do. Sometimes the ball just doesn\'t bounce your way.

Well that all depends on why the Saints are 8-8 doesn\'t it...unless you think Jim Haslett has controll over EVERY factor that dictates winning and losing. If he coaches poorly he should be gone, but if the Saints have to start Michael Lewis, Jerome Pathon, and Talman Gardner as their starting WR\'s there isn\'t much Jim can do about that. I would ask if you see my point here, but I know you well enough to know that even if you did you\'d probably deny it.

Keyou is Hungry
 

When did I stop ???

Keyou is Hungry
 

Good Point. Looks like I blew the call on that one. LOL

:P

Keyou is Hungry
 

This thread has officially become pathetic.

Parting shots from released players?

Gee that never happens does it?

See ex-players from such mickey-mouse coaches as Parcells, Belichick, Landry, Shula, Sherman, Reid, Billick, Gruden, and about 40 more.
WEAK! very weak. I expected more from you Gator.
I was also hoping when you said you were thru with this thread it meant it.

Is there an official way to kill a thread other than ignoring it?

Keyou is Hungry
 

Alright people, get a hold of yourselves.

Gator, I can see your upset with Saintfan - and from what I\'ve read, that seems reasonable. As a result, I thought twice before replying here. However, out of respect for your arguments, I thought I had to say something.

(1) The quotes you give by players against Haz are not sufficient to show that Haz is a bad \"players\" coach. Danno listed as many players who seemed to be happy with him. I agree that there is cause for concern, so your evidence is well taken, but your conclusion (if I have correctly inferred it, which I have probably not) does not seem to be deducible from the evidence even in just this thread.

(2) I like your point about the coach and GM\'s inability to select talent at the right price. I think that is exactly right.

(3) Haz has certainly made some bad decisions. I don\'t think anyone disagreed with that claim. However, AND I AM NOT TAKING SIDES ON THIS, Saintfan\'s point I thought was that a few things that were obviously Haz\'s mistake does not alone make it obvious that he is THE problem, let alone the ONLY problem (and I\'m sure you\'ll agree).

(4) Everyone here needs to give up on the idea that they have FACTs on their side - facts are always interpreted (go back and see my earlier post on this). Thus, all you can do is give your views, back \'em up, and hope people will see the point. When someone challenges you, answer their argument (of course that applies to everybody) don\'t yell at them.

(5) You guys think there is a difference between fact and opinion but everyone thinks their opinion is the one based on the facts. Thus, it is no escape from an argument to say that you are merely stating an opinion, your opinion is the basis of your belief, or that opinions are unchallengable BECAUSE opinions are based on supposed facts. Of course, the reason we talk about all this is for (1) fun and (2) to see if our opinions meet the facts (that is why we discuss them).

Keyou is Hungry
 

Show me a quote Danno. I can\'t remember anyone other than Keyshawn Johnson ever being upset with any of those coaches. Show me some proof to support those claims please.


No he didn\'t. He showed players and coaches who came to New Orleans. Not once did he show that any of those players were motivated by Haslett as compared to money, or their baby\'s mama living in New Orleans.

No? What evidence has been shown to the contrary? If Gator\'s conclusion is invalid, then why have the Saints been .500 the last three years? Bad luck again? That\'s more acceptable than a gaggle of quotes from players saying that Haslett is the problem?

On this point, I totally agree.

Keyou is Hungry
 

this form has become rediculous

Keyou is Hungry
 

I can see this thread will not go away.

(1) The claim that Haz is the cause of players leaving is supported, as near as I can tell, by Roaf (where it is unclear to me what caused him to leave), which I respect (i.e. IS evidence), Turley, he is a nut job, so I give little credence to what he says, and Hawthorne, a player looking to blame others for why he sucks. Players who say good things about us include Cox and some current players (like Brooks) - maybe more support is need here, but I\'m inclined to think not. Either way, do you really think a handful of people (3) saying things that are at least not obviously \"Haz is the reason I\'m leaving\" who also have other reasons to be upset, are PROOF of any kind that Haz IS the problem here. I think they are reason for concern, but I\'m not willing to go to the bank on this evidence.

(2) You don\'t really think that a few players intimating that there is a problem with an organization (which club does this not happen to?) should lead to the conclusion that \"Haz is exactly the problem\". That is why the argument is invalid - it is an inductive inference (i.e. requires some background assumptions - WhoDat\'s being that there must be a single cause for the .500 seasons, I guess - which I don\'t agree with yet).

(3) I never said anything about \"bad luck\". I\'m on the \"it may be more complicated than it seems\" (i.e. there is no SINGLE cause for the problems) bus - which I\'m sure most of us agree.

(4) Point taken. Most of Danno\'s evidence was as follows: if word on the street were that it sucked to play for Haz, why would these guys come here? I don\'t know what to say about that, but arguments to the contrary have not convinced me yet (perhaps because I am stupid). Of course, Danno\'s claims are evidence to the contrary, even if I failed to report how they were evidence accurately earlier.

(5) I\'m glad we agree on something. :)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Wow, you guys type fast!

Gator, I\'m sorry if you thought my (4) that you note in your reply was for you; it wasn\'t.

Cheers.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Oh, also, I agree with Gator\'s first deduction (and I think it is sound), just not the additional one.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Well Gator, you tried...I think...props to you for that, but all you\'ve proven is that there are a few disgruntled players...no different than any other organization. If you percieve that as proof of your (and Kule Turley\'s) Mickey Mouse statement then we\'ll just have to disagree. I don\'t think you\'ve proven a thing...respectfully. ;)

Not preceeded with \"I think\", and I would have left it alone, accept that it\'s a tactic you and Whodat seem to be quite fond of. Did it come up \"quite a bit\". When? By Whom? I was only seeking proof of that statement, and as of yet there isn\'t any. That is the statement I challenged. You\'ve made it personal...and further you still haven\'t proven it. ;)

The rest of ya\'ll can take it up from here. I\'ll only be back to this thread if I\'m attacked...again...so Gator, stop callin\' me Nutcase, baby, Lord Bong, etc and I\'ll be more than happy to let it die. It seems there\'s plenty of information in this thread that shows I\'m not the only guy here who thinks (a) the Saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization and (b) that Haz can coach this team.

My work here is done. ;)

Gator, don\'t make me prove to everyone that you\'re guilty of essentially everything you\'ve accused me of ok? ;)


You got banned for being FAR worse as I recall. ;)


[Edited on 18/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by saintfan]