Just How is Haz doing ?
 

These numbers are all from ESPN.COM, so you guys can validate 'em if necessary. I thought I'd take a look at two guys that have coached a team to the Superbowl and compare their numbers to Jim Haslett's over the first 4 years of their careers as a HC. Here's they they stack up. Judge for yourself. If I look at these numbers I come to the conclusion that Haz hasn't done so bad, but you be the judge. Grated, each coach has had different players to work with, and I guarantee Whodat's first comment will be that Haz has had the better players, but lets remember he's ALSO the guy (along with Gator and a few, select others) that doesn't think Haz has a clue in the draft room either. Anway...on to the numbers:

Parcells...first 4 years 83-86...he went 36-27 in 63 games...his career .pct is .582...In 16 years he's been in the playoffs 9 times and out 7, and in three of those 7 he was booted in the first round. In the first 4 yeras he was 5-2 in the playoffs.

Bilichick...first 4 years 91-94...he went 30-33 in 63 games...his career .pct is .521...In 9 years he's been in the playoffs 3 times and out 9. In his first 4 years he was 1-1 in the playoffs.

Haslett...first 4 years 00-03...he went 34-30 in 64 games...his career .pct is .531...In 4 years he's been in the playoffs 1 time and out 3. In his first 4 years he is 1-1 in the playoffs.

Maybe these numbers don't tell you a thing, or maybe Parcells has the edge in playoff wins (obviously), but the overall record for these three men is VERY similar. Haz is 4 games better than Bilichick and a mere 2 games off the pace set by the great Bill Parcells. Just something to chew on as the dog days drag on by.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

the big point is the playoff wins. this is what matters. i don\'t care if has-not goes .500 overall for his entire coaching career, but as long as he can consistently make the playoffs and WIN when he gets there, then i might start to warm up to him. i still think he needs to go though.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

know what has-not doesn\'t have that both tuna and belichick do have? a championship ring...

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Playoff wins can sway an opinion -- I couldn\'t argue that, but Bilichick did no better than Haz playoff-wise in his 1st 4 years either.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

That\'s very true...he\'s doesn\'t have a championship ring...yet. ;)

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by saintfan]

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Haz reminds me of a mid-round draft pick that did extremely well his 1st season, back down to earth his 2nd and underachieved in year 3 and 4.
The spotlight is now on him and this is the year that determines if he stays or goes.
Right now I give him a 50/50 shot at being here in 2005.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

I like the analogy Danno, and I agree. I think Haz could be gone after this year, but I don\'t think he has to win the Superbowl to stay either.

I almost forgot...Parcells didn\'t win a Superbown in his first 4 years either...just for what it\'s worth.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

if has-been and bilichick switched teams for this year (or even last year, for that matter), bilichick would have done better, not b/c of the team but b/c he\'s a better coach. and as far as parcells, he\'s amazing considering if haslett would have been HC in Dallas last year they would have gone 1-15, 2-14 at best.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

haslett will NEVER win the superbowl... he\'s just not that great of a coach. yeah, i like the analogy too.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Maybe...and then again maybe not. I\'m just tossing some number up to see what ya\'ll think.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Truth be told those are comparable numbers. I can\'t say that the scenarios are the same or that these players had the same level of talent on their teams that the Saints have had, but... I am willing to admit that the numbers look similar. Still, the man better put up this year.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Well jeesh, Whodat, now I feel all warm and fuzzy. Ok not really, but you surprise me. We haven\'t been this close to agreement in...well suffice it to say it\'s been a while. :P

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Contrary to your beliefs and posts on this board, I do not hold some hateful grudge against Jim Haslett. I would like to see the guy succeed b/c it would mean the team would succeed. I just see a lot of problems that lead me to believe that Jim probably isn\'t the right guy. I don\'t twist things to make him look bad anymore than you spin things to make him look good- I look at all of the evidence and form an opinion, same as you. We both see red Saintfan, red just equates to love for you and anger for me. :)

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Dude, I know that deep down in your heart your being honest with what you believe. I disagree with you usually because of exactly what you posted above...there\'s something gay about it tho that bothers me, but I\'ll get over it. :P

I know you\'d like to see Haz succeed, but for all your twisted logic you can\'t see it happening. Jim has the tools to do it, and I think he\'s right on track. Time will tell.

Bottom line is that I do respect your opinion even when I disagree since there\'s usually fuel for each side of the debate. Nothing I love better than a good debate, and you\'re usually game. You\'re gonna eat some crow this year tho buddy...the Saints are makin\' the playoffs. You\'ll see. ;)

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

saintfan: Moderator/instigator :)

I thought for sure that you would have included Jeff Fisher.

Head Coach
Jeff Fisher
Pro Career: Became the franchise’s fifteenth head coach on January 5, 1995 after closing his first campaign as head coach/defensive coordinator. He replaced Jack Pardee on November 14, 1994, serving the remaining six games as head coach.

Fisher is the winningest coach in the NFL during the last four seasons, compiling 44 victories, and is the winningest head coach in franchise history with 80 wins. Last year he became the fourth youngest coach (44) since 1960 to reach 70 regular-season victories (Don Shula, John Madden, and Bill Cowher).

His first four seasons?


1995 7-9
1996 8-8
1997 8-8
1998 8-8

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Guilty as charged ice, but 08 is still the master. :P

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

mr saintfan, if i may sir inject my 2 cents into whether haslett will be here after the 2004 season, without getting interupted by another moderator, suggesting i post on the \"all other post\'s board\"because for some reason or another, they may not deem it logical or sensible talk about the saints.....(after all, this is just the coach) i would like to say this...
falling short of anything other than a playoff appearance and out the door the first playoff game, i, myself sir, do not, see haslett returning....i think benson has given all required of him for his staff to go beyond that 1st playoff game and into the beginning of the promised land.....hopefully, to the promised land.....this draft indeed is important to many, for in it lies the hope of getting there, or the agony of defeat.....again........
now, off subject and pardon my french , but just what the hell is a moderator? and who is the head honcho? and where are the rules for moderators? i\'m sure many here would like to read them if they do exist. after all, should\'nt moderators practice what they preach? i await your answer sir, thank you........swamee

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

If we made the playoffs every year Haslett has been here then we would be screaming and complaining that he can\'t win the big one... and get somone who could take us to the SB...

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Haslett is the greatest coach this organization has ever had.

If he hadn\'t been undermined by Mueller, he\'d already have a superbowl.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Come on Haz08, Tomorrow is 4/20. Not today. Did you get a head start? :cool:


And this swamee feller?

He done smoked his mind out. :o

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

mueller was a god... the reason the saints are in the shape their in is b/c we let him go.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Mueller sabotaged this organization. Paying big money for Dale Carter and Albert Connell and letting LaRoi leave town without even a tender was a major lapse in judgement, bordering on negligence.

Jim is only now recovering from the damage that the Mule did to this organization.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Would this include the exportation of lard butts off of the defensive front line and the building of new ones ???

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

I love some good crow. If they are contenders, I\'ll eat it up. Don\'t forget, I said that the worst thing that could happen was a 9-7 season where they slide into the playoffs as the last wildcard and get blown out of the water in round one. A trip to the playoffs could buy Haslett three more years - those three more years could be just like the last three. ;)

But if they play well and can contend, Ill eat that crow right up Saintfan. As for your gay comments, don\'t hide your feelings lover. Tell everyone the truth, they deserve to know why we really argue so much... you think he\'s bad here you should see him at home! LMAO. :)

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

I just puked on my keyboard. You\'re a sick man Whodat...sick...and the \"man\" part is up for debate. ;) LOL

:P

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Hi folks. New member here. When you talk about Haslett, my opinion is that Haslett\'s team (Saints) have been a disappointment. Except for the first year.

But, to be fair, he did take over a very losy team from Mike Ditka.

I have mixed emotions on Haslett. On one hand, I think he\'s done some good things. On the other hand, I think he\'s screwed some things up. In the NFL, the only thing that matters are results. The results for the Saints the last few years has got to be considered a big disappointment. The two MAJOR collapses and the end of the year, then last years terrible start. Not exactly the way coaching legends are made.

I think a good case could be made to fire Haslett. I mean, there\'s been MANY coaches fired for less.

But still, not everything has been Haslett\'s fault. Injuries have played a MAJOR part. Yeah, every team has injuries, but the Saints have probably had more injuries at key positions then MOST teams. Then the firing of Mueller wasn\'t Haslett\'s fault.

This season should be a make or break year for Haslett. In my eyes, he doesn\'t have to win the Super Bowl, but he needs to make the playoffs.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Welcome SaintsReporter!

I agree with much of what you are saying. I think this year will tell the tale for Haz not because the owner will have enough of him, I personally think there is a love fest there, but because it will be hard to sell tickets if the team does not make the playoffs this year and Haz is coach and Brooks is QB.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Haslett and Brooks do seem to be the favorite whipping boys for the Saints. I can, and do, hold Haslett personally responsible for the Saints success and failures. However, Brooks is a different story.

Brooks does have room for improvement, but I can\'t think of a player on the Saints (with the exception of Deuce) that has played up to their potential. Is it not the job of Jim Haslett and his coaching staff to get players to perform and cut the stupid mental mistakes out?

If Brooks needs to be singled out, because of his mistakes, then I surely think it is only fair to recognize the short-comings of SEVERAL more players on the team. Most notibly the ENTIRE defense.

Brooks has never really had a defense that was worth a flip. Teams with bad defenses usually don\'t make the playoffs and bad defenses dictates that much pressure is placed on the offense and more specifically the QB.

I think before we prematurely get rid of what could be a Pro Bowl QB for years to come, that we should first look at why so many players on this team are inconsistent.

Maybe, just maybe, the problem lies in the coaching and not the indivdual player.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

SR - those are some very interesting comments. Sounds like you\'re on the fence a little bit about Jim Haslett - maybe even a little sour. Can I ask, how long have you felt this way? There are certain membes of this board that have been down on Haslett for a while. Others have argued hand over fist to support the guy. You seem to be taking a very easy stance to take - the I\'m not sure one way or the other stance is pretty easy to defend, no?

You also say that if Haslett makes the playoffs you think he deserves to stay. What if the team stays totally healthy and fades from 6-2 to 9-7 and slides into thte playoffs as a wildcard? What if they don\'t even contend in round one of the playoffs? Should Haslett still stay in your eyes? Isn\'t the real issue here a) is the team playing up to potential and continually improving, and b) are they true contenders?


Interesting take on this issue. I\'ll bite. You\'re saying that Brooks\' consistent inconsistency is not really characteristic of AB, but rather the entire team, no? So generally speaking, Brooks is in the spotlight more so he gets a greater share of the criticism for what is, in essence, a pattern of sloppy undisciplined play from the team. OK, but then isn\'t that an indictment of Haslett? Doesn\'t that just further show Haslett\'s inability to lead this team.


You know, I once knew a guy who said that players were more important than a coach. If what you\'re saying above is true, in today\'s NFL, where there is so much parity and talent is spread more evenly than ever, wouldn\'t a coach be more important than the players on the team? I mean, Haslett took a bunch of 3-13 players to a 10-6 division title in one year. Now he\'s taken those same division champions and made then .500 year in and year out. You seem to be saying that that\'s b/c Haslett isn\'t running a tight ship no? So in essence, Haslett\'s failures have impacted the team more than those of his players...???

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

I indeed am on the fence WhoDat. I am also very sour on the way this team has performed. Last year I was one of the people who believed that the late season coallapes were not the fault of Haslett. Well, not entirely his fault anyway. But, after last year my patience has been used up. I criticized folks that were calling for Haslett\'s head last year. Maybe they knew what they were talking about and maybe they didn\'t. I believe the jury is still out and a verdict will be rendered this year.

If the Saints make the playoffs, I don\'t necessarily think Haslett should stay. I do, however, believe any team that makes the playoffs are doing something right. If we make the playoffs, then we need to play respectable. If we look foolish and get blasted out of the playoffs, then maybe we need to go in another direction.

One of the things I\'ll be looking for this year is the development of several young players such as Cie Grant, Stallworth, and to see if Haslett can get the Saints to play as a team and stop looking like 11-individual players on the field.

We seem to be in agreement on the points you discused. I\'m sure that will change. :P


I\'m not saying that Brooks is consistently inconsistant. I\'m saying the QB is hurt more by other players being consistently inconsistent. For example: A guard misses a block on the line. Who does it affect more? Probably the QB. A receiver misses a perfectly thown ball. Who does it affect most? Probably the QB. Get the picture??

Now, Brooks needs to improve. No doubt about it. The play calling probably could use a little work itself. All in all, I think players are more important than the coach. Although, I do believe coaching is more important today than say maybe 10 years ago. Still, I believe an average coach can get to the super bowl easier with 11 GREAT players, than a great coach with 11- average players.



[Edited on 21/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Am I in the minority that I believe that the QB should share responsibility of the outcome of a game??? Sounds like too many of the new guys feel as if it should all fall on the shoulders of the coach only.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

What minority would that be? Blacks, Hispanics, gays?? LOL J/K.

Sure they share some responsibility. But IMO, not as much as the coach.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

I understand that, but there has been sentiment where it seems that some are ready to give AB a free pass.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Hhhmm. Does Deuce not run almost as much as Brooks attempts a pass? I mean, Deuce is the bread and butter of our offense right? Blocking at the line doesn\'t affect him? Poor downfield blocking doesn\'t affect him? A QB who doesn\'t audible out of bad formations or play calls doesn\'t affect him? There\'s no doubt that the QB can be negatively impacted by the play of his supporting cast. However, the QB can also affect the supporting cast. Much of our offense plays at a pretty high level, so let\'s not get back into the poor AB the martyr talk. I\'m still not over Saintfan saying that Haslett is just a victim of bad luck. ;)

Hypothetically, you may be right. Of course, that hasn\'t been the case for Washington has it? They loaded up on Pro Bowlers a few years back and continue to pay to get \'great\' players every year. They haven\'t done much, right? What about the Raiders? Their all-stars didn\'t seem so stellar after Gruden left now did they?

Point is, in theory you may have a point but in practice that just isn\'t true... at least not in my experience. Great coaches make the difference in the NFL. Look at the Titans with their AFC Title game team that had zero Pro Bowlers. What about the Patties or Panthers? The Rams of 1999 were about the most stacked team I\'ve seen in a while and they had maybe, MAYBE, 10 great players, and even that is pushing it. In today\'s NFL you don\'t get 11 great players let alone 22. Every team has a few great players and a lot of other players. It\'s the coach that determines how many of those guys play well and how many are average or worse. Coaches turn potential into performance, not the other way around.


No, the QB should be responsible too, given the circumstance. I wouldn\'t have fired Archie for the team\'s poor play. On the flip side, if Archie had the talent this team has now and the Saints continued to play like they have been both he and whoever the coach was would be on their butts.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Nobody deserves a free pass. But, I feel the QB shouldn\'t be held to any higher of a standard than any other position. Really, I belive the QB\'s success is more dependent of the 10-other guys on the field than any other position.

While I do believe this is a TOTAL team game, the QB gets too much credit and too much blame. Can anyone really say on a play by play basis when it was Brooks fault and when it was ANYONE elses fault? As fans we see what we see on TV. But, that can be deceiving. We miss breakdowns here and there. I know I don\'t watch a game like a coach who is evaluating individual plays and players. I\'m trying to watch everything.

I think we know Brooks needs to stop fumbling. But, IMO, he made terrific strides last year. As a TEAM we went backwards though.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Of course Deuce is affected by the other players on the offense. However, not to the degree that the QB is. Everything is run through Brooks. And I mean everything. Deuce, while important, doesn\'t have the pressure that any starting QB faces every week. When is the last time you tuned into sports center and heard them pin a loss on the running back? Not often.

My main point has been that with all the incosistency at the other 10-positions on offense that Brooks has gotten too much blame. The key phraise being: \"too much\".






[Edited on 21/4/2004 by SaintsReporter]

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Saintfan never said that. Saintfan said bad luck was a factor. Now, go back to trying to convince someone else who CAN see the forest for the trees that your anti Brooks agenda rings true. I\'m sitting this one out \'til needed -- I\'ll be warming up in the bullpen if anyone needs me.

:P

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Whimp! ;)

OK SR - but you\'re saying that missed blocks hurt Brooks. They lead to what? Sacks, pressure, fumbles, knock downs, a need to leave the pocket... right? What do missed blocks lead to for Deuce? The same thing - only difference is that a QB is trained to run away while Deuce is going to take a guy head on. Either way, their ability to execute a play is hindered. A breakdown in the blocking scheme hurts each player equally - differently maybe, but it hurts each just as bad.

True, and a valid point. However, I have heard losses pinned on a lack of a running game, lack of a passing game, poor receiver play, inability to stop the run, inability to stop the pass, special teams... etc.

The only reason that a QB is different is that in passing downs, he has to deliver the ball in order to make the play work. Sure the receivers have to get open, the line has to block, but unlike basically any other position there is one part of the play that is ENTIRELY up to him. He has to get the ball there. I\'ve seen a whole lot of offensive lines blamed for losses b/c their QB was getting smeared (Washington, Houston). However, if a line blocks well, the receivers get open, and the QB throws a ball that is off target, the blame is his and his alone. I haven\'t seen a whole lot of Saints games where AB did not have the ability to step up in the pocket and make a throw. Our line is generally pretty good, and our receivers have been as well.

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

Here is the post that brings Saintsfan out of the bullpen .

Brooks can be tied into alot of the inconsistency of the offense . Some already know what I am talking about .

When the starting quarterback is the former 3rd string pine rider in Green Bay , incosistency is an allowable in the offensive design .... ;)

Just How is Haz doing ?
 

First of all, our defense gave up an average of 140 yds a game. That\'s just terrible. You can\'t put all of the losses on Brooks\' shoulders. The year before, our defense gave up at least 20 pts. a game.

I remember a missed block by Conwell and led to a Panthers stop and a Deuce fumble on fourth down in overtime. I still think it was a good decision because we didn\'t stop Stephen Davis all day.

I also remember Joe Horn missing a touchdown pass right in his hands against Tampa Bay (leading 7-0) at the end of the first half. Then Brooks goes down field and fumbles and Tampa scores two touchdowns before halftime. Instead of being up 14-0, we were down 14-7 and lost.

I remember Brooks running down field to make a key block on that crazy play against Jacksonville and Carney missed the PAT.

Reasons why we played bad:

1. Didn\'t stop the run

2. Inconsistent WR play

3. No TE help in first half of season

4. Injury plagued defense

5. Terrible special teams play (except for Berger)

Now, do I put ALL of the blame on Brooks, absolutely not.