Musings...........

JKool · 05-04-2004, 04:03 AM

B-I,

I hope you didn\'t think that I was questioning the goodness of musings!? In fact, if it were not for musings, we would not get at the truth of things. I very much enjoyed your musings; I just thought that some of them were a bit off track (i.e. merely musings). It is not clear to me that anyone here is accepting the \"herd mentality\"; but I believe that is why discussion on this board is lively and fun.

I agree that it requires vision to put the right pieces in the right places. I think your idea is interesting. However, as it stands, it sounds like this: opinion is nothing more than opinion VERSUS there are some facts of the matter. I think, as you seem to, that opinion and facts of the matter are related. This makes some opinions better than others (the opinions that are closer to the truth are better - it is that which makes us discuss things). Thus, in some sense, it is both. I think we may have been merely disagreeing about what constitutes the puddin\' - I don\'t think the only way to evaluate the goodness of a team is W/Ls.

The point that WhoDat and I may disagree about (though I\'m not sure of this) is that we are doing the same thing over and over again. Notice that our draft this year and last year did not seem to address glaring needs. However, this does not mean that we did the same thing both years. In fact, this year, unlike last year, we drafted \"character\" players. Also, our needs are not the same this year as they were last year, and so on. Thus, when you claim that we are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, some people (myself included, I guess) will say that we are not doing the SAME thing each year - it only looks the same on the broadest of scopes.

WhoDat · 05-04-2004, 07:50 AM

JKool - I\'m not saying that we sucked last year, therefore we will suck this year. I am saying that we sucked last year because of X, Y, and Z - problems that have been consistent over a longer period of time (e.g. we haven\'t been able to stop the run in two or three years). I don\'t feel that we\'ve done anything to improve those areas - just as in past years. Don\'t get me wrong, we made moves, but we made the wrong moves.

Look, coming into free agency this season we needed basically the same things we needed last off-season. A stud MLB, a stud corner, and another big body at DT to stop the run. We got a small body at DT, no experienced LB who is likely to make an impact THIS season, and no CB of the caliber we need. Just like last year when we \'addressed\' those same needs with Sullivan, Ruff, and Ambrose, the moves we made this year are not enough. Thus, again, I believe you\'re likely to see similar play and next year I bet we\'ll all be saying - so we need a DT, LB, and CB.

biloxi-indian · 05-04-2004, 09:29 AM

JKool

You are correct in that I was only expressing opinions. Almost every Saints fan I know personally has one or two! :,))

I do believe with better understanding we are agreeing to disagree on certain topics. One for sure is the \"goodness\" of a team. IMO, most teams start with the basic premise they HOPE to have a winning season with a goal of making the playoffs. Notice I did not say the Super Bowl. Winning season, making the playoffs, means W/L\'s. Whether we like it or not, if we place all the great players on one team who do not having a positive W/L record... correlates to nothing more than \"wait til next year\"!

As for the this years draft...we have yet to see one of our choices play a down on the field. What position Smith will play, or will Watson be that good is only conjecture at this point in time. However, as you so aptly put it...\"in the broadest scope\" relates to the musings that leadership, vision, and focus are needed by those who make these picks year after year. That responsibility is reserved for the scouts, coaches, management, and owner! This is where INSANITY resides...IMO.

I listened intently on draft day to the radio as I was traveling. I enjoyed the discussion by Charlie Waters of Cowboy fame. He discussed the draft and the events leading up to a draft by a team. Whereas the discussion was focused on Dallas passing on three of the \"best\" RB\'s available...his point was that scouts, coaches, management, and owner have gone over the draft and its many possibilities a 100 times over leading to draft day. Trust me when I say the people of Dallas are QUESTIONING that move as well (NOTE; I now live in Dallas and am NOT remotely a Cowboy fan!). The point being, if Waters is accurate, then the Saints had a plan and they chose Will Smith with a purpose in mind. We just do not know the plan!

To pass on glaring needs for another questionable selection...only causes those of us who do not accept the \"herd\" mentality to question the INSANITY of it all.

BTW; I do agree there are other glaring holes that need to be addressed. I just chose to MUSE on the ones I did. I will save my opinions or musings on injuries for a later time.

Thank you for the discussion...I enjoy the sharing of ideas and opinions...and we can agree to disagree.

JKool · 05-04-2004, 03:35 PM

WhoDat,

I knew you had a good argument (or at least not the one I presented); I think that alot of disagreement comes from people hearing others arguments as though they have the form I laid out.

I think, for the most part we agree, but we have in the past discussed the following: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a single problem. I\'m wondering what you think about this: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a compound problem - that is, one day you can\'t stop the run because your DTs are out of shape, another day they are playing fine but your MLB is injured, another day it is the DEs not cutting off escape routes... and so on? Of course, these problems are usually all occurring together, but it is possible that some days it is one and not another.

I agree that we we need to get a good CB, DT, and LB to address the remaining problems on the defense. Perhaps we disagree on how well these concerns have been addressed or how bad certain concerns are? I can\'t tell if we do.

Are you really of the view that we have not properly addressed the need for a LB? We did expend a second round draft pick, and we have several players who are probably about ready to be impact players (Grant and maybe Allen)? Sure we\'re not studs at this position, but no team has great units at every position. Is seems plausible to me that next year we\'ll be saying, \"ok, so we need a CB\", but I don\'t see reason to despair in the other two listed areas.

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by JKool]

JKool · 05-04-2004, 03:42 PM

B-I,

Interesting stuff. Though, I\'m not sure what you think we disagree on at this point.

It is perfectly reasonable to question our draft selections - everyone is doing that. I think I was just questioning whether or not we could say that the draft was \"poo\" (as one of our other members likes to put things) on the grounds you were giving (e.g. W/L record). I guess, I\'m not pleased with the draft we had, but I guess I\'m not really upset right now either.

Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.

biloxi-indian · 05-04-2004, 05:41 PM

JKool,

<Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.>

Good question you ask, and I am sure it will spur on a debate. For me, neither is acceptable as a W/L of 6-10 is unacceptable. In one case we have players not achieving their full potential due to a coach, and in the other we have marginal players playing above their head due to the motivation of a good coach...however, in one case you have a coach to replace and on the other you most likely have any number of marginal players to replace. One would take less time than the other...all IMO.

WhoDat · 05-04-2004, 05:52 PM

Are you really of the view that we have not properly addressed the need for a LB?

No, I am of the opinion that we have not properly addressed the LB position.

Think about it. At DT we have sure things, right? We know Grant and Howard are very good players. If they\'re not around, Whitehead is a capable backup. Throw in Smith and Melvin Williams and they\'re loaded there.

Compare that to LB. It\'s not that we have a shortage of LB. It\'s that those we have are inadequate. Maybe they\'ll prove me wrong this year. I sincerely hope that they do. However, Hodge and Allen have both had a lot of time to learn in game experience and they still haven\'t put it together. Smith is old. Rodgers is old. Ruff was pretty unimpressive when I saw him. Grant is unproven and was not a true LB in college. Other than that we have a rookie. So to me that equates to underachieving, underachieving, old, old, bad, young and inexperienced, rookie. That doesn\'t inspire a ton of optimism for me.

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat]

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat]

JKool · 05-04-2004, 05:52 PM

I\'m not sure much debate will be spurred, since I think you\'ve given a solid answer.

However, it seems to me that \"unacceptable\" is different from \"bad\" - I think we\'ll agree that missing the playoffs means failing in a fairly important team goal. Being \"bad\", I think, is made up of, and decided by, many things (including how easy it might be to fix the problem) other than just W/L records. Thus, a W/L record is not the only way to evaluate a team.

WhoDat · 05-04-2004, 06:21 PM

I didn\'t say this team was bad - I said it was mediocre.

The coaches are bad, IMO, b/c the team has had the talent (and resources to acquire more impact players) to be better than their record for the last three seasons. Certainly the last two.

My beef with the coaches and front office all relate to mismanagement. They have passed on many very good players in FA despite having a lot of money available under the cap. They have made questionable decisions in the draft. They have made questionable decisions to play certain players. Even despite all these mistakes this team is still one of the most talented to ever wear black and gold. Even with all this talent they are undisciplined and can\'t step their game up to the next level. Part of the problem is players, but the lion share can all be traced back to the coaches (and Loomis).

JKool · 05-04-2004, 06:24 PM

I didn\'t say this team was bad - I said it was mediocre.

My bad.

I agree. FA was a serious let down for at least the second year in a row. What is wrong with spending some cash on a big name proven player!

Let\'s get a CB... soon... please!!!!

05-04-2004, 04:03 AM	#21
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Musings........... B-I, I hope you didn\'t think that I was questioning the goodness of musings!? In fact, if it were not for musings, we would not get at the truth of things. I very much enjoyed your musings; I just thought that some of them were a bit off track (i.e. merely musings). It is not clear to me that anyone here is accepting the \"herd mentality\"; but I believe that is why discussion on this board is lively and fun. I agree that it requires vision to put the right pieces in the right places. I think your idea is interesting. However, as it stands, it sounds like this: opinion is nothing more than opinion VERSUS there are some facts of the matter. I think, as you seem to, that opinion and facts of the matter are related. This makes some opinions better than others (the opinions that are closer to the truth are better - it is that which makes us discuss things). Thus, in some sense, it is both. I think we may have been merely disagreeing about what constitutes the puddin\' - I don\'t think the only way to evaluate the goodness of a team is W/Ls. The point that WhoDat and I may disagree about (though I\'m not sure of this) is that we are doing the same thing over and over again. Notice that our draft this year and last year did not seem to address glaring needs. However, this does not mean that we did the same thing both years. In fact, this year, unlike last year, we drafted \"character\" players. Also, our needs are not the same this year as they were last year, and so on. Thus, when you claim that we are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, some people (myself included, I guess) will say that we are not doing the SAME thing each year - it only looks the same on the broadest of scopes.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-04-2004, 07:50 AM	#22
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Musings........... JKool - I\'m not saying that we sucked last year, therefore we will suck this year. I am saying that we sucked last year because of X, Y, and Z - problems that have been consistent over a longer period of time (e.g. we haven\'t been able to stop the run in two or three years). I don\'t feel that we\'ve done anything to improve those areas - just as in past years. Don\'t get me wrong, we made moves, but we made the wrong moves. Look, coming into free agency this season we needed basically the same things we needed last off-season. A stud MLB, a stud corner, and another big body at DT to stop the run. We got a small body at DT, no experienced LB who is likely to make an impact THIS season, and no CB of the caliber we need. Just like last year when we \'addressed\' those same needs with Sullivan, Ruff, and Ambrose, the moves we made this year are not enough. Thus, again, I believe you\'re likely to see similar play and next year I bet we\'ll all be saying - so we need a DT, LB, and CB.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

05-04-2004, 09:29 AM	#23
biloxi-indian Site Donor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southlake, TX Posts: 1,706	Musings........... JKool You are correct in that I was only expressing opinions. Almost every Saints fan I know personally has one or two! :,)) I do believe with better understanding we are agreeing to disagree on certain topics. One for sure is the \"goodness\" of a team. IMO, most teams start with the basic premise they HOPE to have a winning season with a goal of making the playoffs. Notice I did not say the Super Bowl. Winning season, making the playoffs, means W/L\'s. Whether we like it or not, if we place all the great players on one team who do not having a positive W/L record... correlates to nothing more than \"wait til next year\"! As for the this years draft...we have yet to see one of our choices play a down on the field. What position Smith will play, or will Watson be that good is only conjecture at this point in time. However, as you so aptly put it...\"in the broadest scope\" relates to the musings that leadership, vision, and focus are needed by those who make these picks year after year. That responsibility is reserved for the scouts, coaches, management, and owner! This is where INSANITY resides...IMO. I listened intently on draft day to the radio as I was traveling. I enjoyed the discussion by Charlie Waters of Cowboy fame. He discussed the draft and the events leading up to a draft by a team. Whereas the discussion was focused on Dallas passing on three of the \"best\" RB\'s available...his point was that scouts, coaches, management, and owner have gone over the draft and its many possibilities a 100 times over leading to draft day. Trust me when I say the people of Dallas are QUESTIONING that move as well (NOTE; I now live in Dallas and am NOT remotely a Cowboy fan!). The point being, if Waters is accurate, then the Saints had a plan and they chose Will Smith with a purpose in mind. We just do not know the plan! To pass on glaring needs for another questionable selection...only causes those of us who do not accept the \"herd\" mentality to question the INSANITY of it all. BTW; I do agree there are other glaring holes that need to be addressed. I just chose to MUSE on the ones I did. I will save my opinions or musings on injuries for a later time. Thank you for the discussion...I enjoy the sharing of ideas and opinions...and we can agree to disagree.
	Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over, over, and over again...and expecting a different outcome!

05-04-2004, 03:35 PM	#24
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Musings........... WhoDat, I knew you had a good argument (or at least not the one I presented); I think that alot of disagreement comes from people hearing others arguments as though they have the form I laid out. I think, for the most part we agree, but we have in the past discussed the following: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a single problem. I\'m wondering what you think about this: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a compound problem - that is, one day you can\'t stop the run because your DTs are out of shape, another day they are playing fine but your MLB is injured, another day it is the DEs not cutting off escape routes... and so on? Of course, these problems are usually all occurring together, but it is possible that some days it is one and not another. I agree that we we need to get a good CB, DT, and LB to address the remaining problems on the defense. Perhaps we disagree on how well these concerns have been addressed or how bad certain concerns are? I can\'t tell if we do. Are you really of the view that we have not properly addressed the need for a LB? We did expend a second round draft pick, and we have several players who are probably about ready to be impact players (Grant and maybe Allen)? Sure we\'re not studs at this position, but no team has great units at every position. Is seems plausible to me that next year we\'ll be saying, \"ok, so we need a CB\", but I don\'t see reason to despair in the other two listed areas. [Edited on 4/5/2004 by JKool]
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-04-2004, 03:42 PM	#25
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Musings........... B-I, Interesting stuff. Though, I\'m not sure what you think we disagree on at this point. It is perfectly reasonable to question our draft selections - everyone is doing that. I think I was just questioning whether or not we could say that the draft was \"poo\" (as one of our other members likes to put things) on the grounds you were giving (e.g. W/L record). I guess, I\'m not pleased with the draft we had, but I guess I\'m not really upset right now either. Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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05-04-2004, 05:41 PM	#26
biloxi-indian Site Donor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southlake, TX Posts: 1,706	Musings........... JKool, <Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.> Good question you ask, and I am sure it will spur on a debate. For me, neither is acceptable as a W/L of 6-10 is unacceptable. In one case we have players not achieving their full potential due to a coach, and in the other we have marginal players playing above their head due to the motivation of a good coach...however, in one case you have a coach to replace and on the other you most likely have any number of marginal players to replace. One would take less time than the other...all IMO.
	Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over, over, and over again...and expecting a different outcome!

05-04-2004, 05:52 PM	#27
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Musings........... Are you really of the view that we have not properly addressed the need for a LB? No, I am of the opinion that we have not properly addressed the LB position. Think about it. At DT we have sure things, right? We know Grant and Howard are very good players. If they\'re not around, Whitehead is a capable backup. Throw in Smith and Melvin Williams and they\'re loaded there. Compare that to LB. It\'s not that we have a shortage of LB. It\'s that those we have are inadequate. Maybe they\'ll prove me wrong this year. I sincerely hope that they do. However, Hodge and Allen have both had a lot of time to learn in game experience and they still haven\'t put it together. Smith is old. Rodgers is old. Ruff was pretty unimpressive when I saw him. Grant is unproven and was not a true LB in college. Other than that we have a rookie. So to me that equates to underachieving, underachieving, old, old, bad, young and inexperienced, rookie. That doesn\'t inspire a ton of optimism for me. [Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat] [Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

05-04-2004, 05:52 PM	#28
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Musings........... I\'m not sure much debate will be spurred, since I think you\'ve given a solid answer. However, it seems to me that \"unacceptable\" is different from \"bad\" - I think we\'ll agree that missing the playoffs means failing in a fairly important team goal. Being \"bad\", I think, is made up of, and decided by, many things (including how easy it might be to fix the problem) other than just W/L records. Thus, a W/L record is not the only way to evaluate a team.

05-04-2004, 06:21 PM	#29
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Musings........... I didn\'t say this team was bad - I said it was mediocre. The coaches are bad, IMO, b/c the team has had the talent (and resources to acquire more impact players) to be better than their record for the last three seasons. Certainly the last two. My beef with the coaches and front office all relate to mismanagement. They have passed on many very good players in FA despite having a lot of money available under the cap. They have made questionable decisions in the draft. They have made questionable decisions to play certain players. Even despite all these mistakes this team is still one of the most talented to ever wear black and gold. Even with all this talent they are undisciplined and can\'t step their game up to the next level. Part of the problem is players, but the lion share can all be traced back to the coaches (and Loomis).
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

05-04-2004, 06:24 PM	#30
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Musings........... I didn\'t say this team was bad - I said it was mediocre. My bad. I agree. FA was a serious let down for at least the second year in a row. What is wrong with spending some cash on a big name proven player! Let\'s get a CB... soon... please!!!!