GumboBC

LMAO !! You\'re a funny dude - 08. Why the hell would I want to pay $14.95 to prove something for you?? :P

I don\'t know how anyone could classify a dropped pass. Does the ball have to touch one hand or two? Or, does the ball just have to be close to \'em? Seems confusing at best to me.

Anyway, my boy Brooks is going to be in top form this year. Records are gonna fall. Critics will be silenced. Statues will be bulit outside the super dome. -- :P

saintz08

That\'s why you pony on up to the cashier window .

Would that be the fumbles by a quarterback record ?? He was pretty close last year ....

Didn\'t you make one of these bold predictions last year and have a healthy helping of crow ????..... :P

GumboBC

You\'re a lucky guy that Brooks had the fumbling problems last year. Otherwise, you wouldn\'t have anything to complain about............ It\'s gonna be tough on you this year 08. Gonna be real hard to hear all the accolades that Brooks is gonna recieve this year.

Eat crow last year?? What you talking \'bout? I just joined this site:
Posts: 111
Registered: 5/5/2004
Status: :P :P :P :P

saintz08

Not too worry , I have quite the arsenal with low wonderlic score , problems reading defenses , problems holding onto the ball , leadership questions and the ever popular no touch on his passes .... :P

WhoDat

I\'d just like to make sure everyone knows exactly who they\'re debating with in this thread:

BillyC:
\"no_cloning -
I think it\'s a well known fact that turnovers are one of the MOST IMPORTANT stats in football. Turnovers probably cost teams more games than anything else. \"
- Listed above in this thread


But go just a few months back...

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...e=3&orderdate=


WhoDat:
\"Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. A couple of weeks back, Horn dropped a pass and Brooks went back to him the next play. We scored on that drive. Gardner\'s two drops on third down plays stop drives. Is that simple enough for you to understand Billy?

You see, when Brooks fumbles the ball and the other team recovers, the drive is over. A holding penalty on first and ten hurts, but doesn\'t necessarily end it. A holding call on 3rd and 8, or a dropped pass, well, those both pretty much end the drive.\"



Billy\'s response:
\"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man this is like taking candy from a baby. So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! Actually I\'m sad -- For you -- I thought you understood the game of football better WhoDat. I was wrong again. \"


Billy again:
\"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can post till ya blue in the face and drink all the WhoTang ya want to, but you are wrong about the above statement. Feel free to step up to the plate WhoDat.

C\'mon just admit you are wrong. We\'ve all been wrong and it will make you sound much more crediable...........\"



Lumm0x tries to help out:
\"If WhoDat stood in front of Bill Parcells and asked him if there is one thing that he could eliminate from his team\'s play, I can almost guarantee it would be turnovers. WhoDat is trying to tell you that turnovers are more costly than penalties, dropped passes and missed blocks. Both can have the same effect, given the situation, but apples to apples, turnovers are singularly a bigger problem. \"



Saintfan wades in:
\"The fact remains lummox that the quote whodat made regarding penalties etc would NOT fly sir.\"



Billy again:
\"LummOx --

I think you are fair with your posts but not this one. The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go. Sound ridiculos? Yeah, it does. Just like the argument you are trying to put up.....\"



Even Gator tries:
\"But on this topic, I see turnovers the most definite cause of halting drives, so I agree with Whodat. I never agree with guys because I\'m friends with them, I agree with them because its what I think and I have never claimed to know more or less than anybody here nor any coach in the NFL. \"




You see folks, this is what I\'m talking about when I say seeing the big picture - having an idea of what happens over time. I find it interesting that turnovers were not a problem when AB had fumble fingers last season to some on this board, but then in trying to make the defense out to be the culprit (which they have otherwise argued got better), they use turnovers \"THE MOST IMPORTANT\" cause of a win versus a loss.

Is this inflamitory? Maybe - but I just couldn\'t help bringing this up. I argued for over a week about turnovers hurting us and now the same people who argued against me are talking about how costly turnovers are. So now how do Brooks\' 23 turnovers stack up? Just wondering.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

WhoDat --

You say that penalties aren\'t drive stoppers. I don\'t think you can get ONE person to agree with you on that. NOT ONE!! If we have to punt the ball because of a penalty, then it\'s a drive stopper.

Anyway, I read all of that, and I know turnovers are worse than penalites MOST of the time. There are cases when they are NOT!!

What\'s your point?

WhoDat

My point is that last year, when we were arguing about Aaron Brooks (who\'d a thunk it?) I was talking about how much his turnovers hurt us. YOU said that turnovers did not hurt as much as missed blocks, dropped passes, etc.

My point is and has always been a simple one Billy. You said it yourself earlier - turnovers are amongst the most costly and important determining factor of a football game. Penalties are analog - they are varying in their impact and importance. Turnovers are digital - they always hurt the same amount. A penalty MAY result in a stalled drive or it MAY NOT and the drive may continue. A turnover ALWAYS results in a drive ending. That was my point then and I stand firm behind that idea now.

As it relates to the topic at hand, I find it very interesting that last year when I was \"bashing\" Brooks for all the fumbles you downplayed the importance of turnovers and said that they don\'t hurt anymore than a dropped pass or missed block. However, today, as you talk about defenses and team success, you indicate that turnovers are the most important factor in wins vs losses. Do you not see the hypocracy there?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

WhoDat -- I NEVER said that. Since you\'re making that statement. Show me where I said that. I know better.

What I said was that penalties were killing drives. AND THEY WERE. Penalties can kill drives and LOSE games.

Fact is I DIDN\'T say turnovers did not hurt as much as penalties. It was you who said PENALTIES aren\'t drive killers. We all have our beliefs, WhoDat. You just happen to believe penalties don\'t kill drives. Who am I to try and get ya to changer ya mind?? :P

There\'s no hypocrisy here WhoDat. I know Brooks fumbles hurt us last year. How could they not. However, I can see that there were problems other than Brooks fumbling that cost us games. It\'s called looking a the BIG picture.

WhoDat

You are correct - you said that turnovers were equal to a penalties in harm done to a team. You tried to argue that 3rd and 30 was the same as a turnover.

Point being Billy - your tune\'s a-changin\'. But that\'s nothing new.

Go ahead on and tell me more about how turnovers hurt teams I can\'t wait to hear more.

GumboBC

Wrong again. I did NOT say turnovers were equal to penalties. I said they CAN be. And they can be. Again, I\'m going to have to ask you to show me where I said what you\'re accusing me of. I know what I said, WhoDat. I\'m an oak. Steadfast and strong -- :P

On the other hand, you did say penalties weren\'t drive killers!! Have you changed your mind yet??..LOL........... :P



[Edited on 17/5/2004 by GumboBC]