O Line and disappearing protection

blackangold · 07-21-2012, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by 228jits

I know this is really picking the flies out of the garbage... The first 3 years of Brees donning the black and gold his sack numbers were significantly low:

2006 - 18
2007 - 16
2008 - 13

The following 3 years those numbers grew:

2009 - 20
2010 - 25
2011 - 24.

In 06/07 the starting line was:
Jammal Brown
Jamar Nesbit
Jeff Faine
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 08
Jammal Brown
Carl Nicks
Jonathan Goodwin
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 09/10
Jermon Bushrod
Carl Nicks
Jonathan Goodwin
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 11
Jermon Bushrod
Carl Nicks
Brian De La Puente
Jahri Evans
Zach Strief

I understand that the sack numbers are low regardless of being mid 20's. Is there a way with the addition of Grubbs to bring back those Mid 2000 type numbers?

seems like the more sacks we take the more wins we have...

06 10 wins
07 7 wins
08 8wins
We had one good season

09 13 wins
10 11wins
11 13wins

I see a correlation to more sacks leading to a higher win ratio.

Rugby Saint II · 07-22-2012, 11:23 PM

Jahri Evans has been the constant on the Oline. He's strong and smart. Every one else has actually surprised me when they stepped up........I'm still not a Bushrod fan. But he gets the job done. de la Puenta was our diamond last year I believe. Overall I would give them an A-
That's something to be proud of.

Utah_Saint · 07-23-2012, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Jahri Evans has been the constant on the Oline. He's strong and smart. Every one else has actually surprised me when they stepped up........I'm still not a Bushrod fan. But he gets the job done. de la Puenta was our diamond last year I believe. Overall I would give them an A-
That's something to be proud of.

Brian De La Puenta was an undrafted free agent.
Jahri Evans was a 4th round draft pick.
Carl Nicks was a 5th round draft pick.
Zack Strief was a 7th round draft pick.
Jermon Bushrod was a 4th round draft pick.

I think Arron Kromer is an unsung hero on the Saints sidelines. It seems since he's been with the Saints, the line is always greater than the sum of it's parts. And when you look at how supposed studs did after they left the Saints, like Jamaal Brown and Jeff Faine, it's just more evidence that the line is very well coached.

jeanpierre · 07-23-2012, 05:44 AM

The Green Bay game last season sticks out in my mind...

The San Fran and Seattle playoff losses also showed they have trouble against younger, more athletic talent; thought the San Fran loss was mostly caused by turnovers, the Offensive line had its part in contributing to that as well; the Seattle loss Drew was harrassed and well their Tight End looked all world against a certain safety...

The Offensive Line has got some transition and had a nice surprise at Center last year; would like to see someone emerge as the clear cut Right Tackle; I believe (hope) that Grubbs will ably replace Nicks and provide a different hit in the running game as well...

FinSaint · 07-24-2012, 05:54 AM

The weakness of the Saints' O-line is, in my opinion, both of the tackles.

Bushrod is OK, but he is not even close to the level of Evans as a guard, and that is why he should go after this coming season if he wants more money than he is currently getting.

Strief and Brown are in reality both subs and depth guys at best, but I hope that this year's 7th round pick from Nebraska, Marcel Jones, will emerge as a starting RT in 2013 with a year spent under Kromer's tutelage.

The Saints should try and draft a LT in next year's draft to replace Bushrod and become the starter for years to come, and I'd even be for using the 1st rounder to do that if they can have the right guy at the 32nd pick.

Bottom line is that with the contract Brees got and the importance of him staying healthy if the Saints want to stay as an upper level team, O-line should be a focus in the coming seasons, especially improving the tackles.

Danno · 07-24-2012, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

The weakness of the Saints' O-line is, in my opinion, both of the tackles.

Bushrod is OK, but he is not even close to the level of Evans as a guard, and that is why he should go after this coming season if he wants more money than he is currently getting.

Strief and Brown are in reality both subs and depth guys at best, but I hope that this year's 7th round pick from Nebraska, Marcel Jones, will emerge as a starting RT in 2013 with a year spent under Kromer's tutelage.

The Saints should try and draft a LT in next year's draft to replace Bushrod and become the starter for years to come, and I'd even be for using the 1st rounder to do that if they can have the right guy at the 32nd pick.

Bottom line is that with the contract Brees got and the importance of him staying healthy if the Saints want to stay as an upper level team, O-line should be a focus in the coming seasons, especially improving the tackles.

I think our OT's are OK, because Drew needs the middle protected more than the outsides. With the short drops, quick hitters and the fact that Drew must have back-up cameras in the back of his helmet, our OG's are the new OT's.

When Drew gets pressured up the gut, he looks very mediocre.

I think our focus in upcoming seasons should be D-line and LB. We threw some bodies at OLB and we have some young potential at DE and DT, but we just don't know if they will develop into good NFL players.

FinSaint · 07-24-2012, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

I think our OT's are OK, because Drew needs the middle protected more than the outsides. With the short drops, quick hitters and the fact that Drew must have back-up cameras in the back of his helmet, our OG's are the new OT's.

When Drew gets pressured up the gut, he looks very mediocre.

I think our focus in upcoming seasons should be D-line and LB. We threw some bodies at OLB and we have some young potential at DE and DT, but we just don't know if they will develop into good NFL players.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I fully agree that the Saints do have a guard-driven O-line, which does suit the playing style of Brees. But the Saints don't really have any real depth behind their OTs and I still think that Strief should not be a starter and having such a strong pair of guards have helped the O-line to get away with shotty OT play - yes I'm looking at you Bushrod - but upgrading those positions would pay dividends with running plays and screen game as well as pass protection.

Sure there are other parts of the team that need upgrading as well, but as far as this O-line thread goes, it's clear to me that they need some upgrades on their OTs if they want the performance level to remain about the same.

darstep · 07-24-2012, 02:04 PM

IMO, the Saints became incerasingly pass happy under Payton.
When Duece was pounding the rock there was much better balance.
Payton spoke often of 30/30, and then would have Brees sling 40+ times.
Brees has avoided enough sacks to have had 40 in any given season.
Many of the sacks he ended up with were 3rd and long, and without conversion,
we were punting anyway. Very few of those were blind side miscues. Thank you Lord!
Our O-line is fine.
I would love to see a more consistent 30/30 so Brees doesn't start to think that he has to
make everything happen or bare the full load for our success, and ends up with his pickle in a pickle.

jeanpierre · 07-24-2012, 02:54 PM

Would like to get a road grader at Right Tackle, but that would be a luxury as this offense has very few weaknesses...

The Left Tackle could be improved - but where do you find the money for such a player?

Keep drafting OL in rounds 3-5 and develop to replace those who want to break the bank as Nicks (don't blame him) would have done...

Offensive Linemen are important, but they don't pass or score touchdowns...

darstep · 07-24-2012, 03:22 PM

It's really kind of hard to be a good tackle if you are lined up next to a poor guard, and vice versa.
Last year, week for or five, the O-line found it's groove, started getting some push,
and everything else started to work beautifully.
I think they will find that groove again this year with Grubbs and have another good season.
Our versatility makes it much easier for our guys to keep defenders on their heels.

07-21-2012, 02:11 AM	#21
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Originally Posted by 228jits I know this is really picking the flies out of the garbage... The first 3 years of Brees donning the black and gold his sack numbers were significantly low: 2006 - 18 2007 - 16 2008 - 13 The following 3 years those numbers grew: 2009 - 20 2010 - 25 2011 - 24. In 06/07 the starting line was: Jammal Brown Jamar Nesbit Jeff Faine Jahri Evans Jon Stinchcomb In 08 Jammal Brown Carl Nicks Jonathan Goodwin Jahri Evans Jon Stinchcomb In 09/10 Jermon Bushrod Carl Nicks Jonathan Goodwin Jahri Evans Jon Stinchcomb In 11 Jermon Bushrod Carl Nicks Brian De La Puente Jahri Evans Zach Strief I understand that the sack numbers are low regardless of being mid 20's. Is there a way with the addition of Grubbs to bring back those Mid 2000 type numbers? seems like the more sacks we take the more wins we have... 06 10 wins 07 7 wins 08 8wins We had one good season 09 13 wins 10 11wins 11 13wins I see a correlation to more sacks leading to a higher win ratio. papz likes this.

07-22-2012, 11:23 PM	#22
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Jahri Evans has been the constant on the Oline. He's strong and smart. Every one else has actually surprised me when they stepped up........I'm still not a Bushrod fan. But he gets the job done. de la Puenta was our diamond last year I believe. Overall I would give them an A- That's something to be proud of. Utah_Saint likes this.

07-23-2012, 12:11 AM	#23
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Jahri Evans has been the constant on the Oline. He's strong and smart. Every one else has actually surprised me when they stepped up........I'm still not a Bushrod fan. But he gets the job done. de la Puenta was our diamond last year I believe. Overall I would give them an A- That's something to be proud of. Brian De La Puenta was an undrafted free agent. Jahri Evans was a 4th round draft pick. Carl Nicks was a 5th round draft pick. Zack Strief was a 7th round draft pick. Jermon Bushrod was a 4th round draft pick. I think Arron Kromer is an unsung hero on the Saints sidelines. It seems since he's been with the Saints, the line is always greater than the sum of it's parts. And when you look at how supposed studs did after they left the Saints, like Jamaal Brown and Jeff Faine, it's just more evidence that the line is very well coached. darstep likes this.

07-23-2012, 05:44 AM	#24
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	The Green Bay game last season sticks out in my mind... The San Fran and Seattle playoff losses also showed they have trouble against younger, more athletic talent; thought the San Fran loss was mostly caused by turnovers, the Offensive line had its part in contributing to that as well; the Seattle loss Drew was harrassed and well their Tight End looked all world against a certain safety... The Offensive Line has got some transition and had a nice surprise at Center last year; would like to see someone emerge as the clear cut Right Tackle; I believe (hope) that Grubbs will ably replace Nicks and provide a different hit in the running game as well...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

07-24-2012, 05:54 AM	#25
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	The weakness of the Saints' O-line is, in my opinion, both of the tackles. Bushrod is OK, but he is not even close to the level of Evans as a guard, and that is why he should go after this coming season if he wants more money than he is currently getting. Strief and Brown are in reality both subs and depth guys at best, but I hope that this year's 7th round pick from Nebraska, Marcel Jones, will emerge as a starting RT in 2013 with a year spent under Kromer's tutelage. The Saints should try and draft a LT in next year's draft to replace Bushrod and become the starter for years to come, and I'd even be for using the 1st rounder to do that if they can have the right guy at the 32nd pick. Bottom line is that with the contract Brees got and the importance of him staying healthy if the Saints want to stay as an upper level team, O-line should be a focus in the coming seasons, especially improving the tackles.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

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07-24-2012, 09:17 AM	#26
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Originally Posted by FinSaint The weakness of the Saints' O-line is, in my opinion, both of the tackles. Bushrod is OK, but he is not even close to the level of Evans as a guard, and that is why he should go after this coming season if he wants more money than he is currently getting. Strief and Brown are in reality both subs and depth guys at best, but I hope that this year's 7th round pick from Nebraska, Marcel Jones, will emerge as a starting RT in 2013 with a year spent under Kromer's tutelage. The Saints should try and draft a LT in next year's draft to replace Bushrod and become the starter for years to come, and I'd even be for using the 1st rounder to do that if they can have the right guy at the 32nd pick. Bottom line is that with the contract Brees got and the importance of him staying healthy if the Saints want to stay as an upper level team, O-line should be a focus in the coming seasons, especially improving the tackles. I think our OT's are OK, because Drew needs the middle protected more than the outsides. With the short drops, quick hitters and the fact that Drew must have back-up cameras in the back of his helmet, our OG's are the new OT's. When Drew gets pressured up the gut, he looks very mediocre. I think our focus in upcoming seasons should be D-line and LB. We threw some bodies at OLB and we have some young potential at DE and DT, but we just don't know if they will develop into good NFL players.

07-24-2012, 10:12 AM	#27
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Originally Posted by Danno I think our OT's are OK, because Drew needs the middle protected more than the outsides. With the short drops, quick hitters and the fact that Drew must have back-up cameras in the back of his helmet, our OG's are the new OT's. When Drew gets pressured up the gut, he looks very mediocre. I think our focus in upcoming seasons should be D-line and LB. We threw some bodies at OLB and we have some young potential at DE and DT, but we just don't know if they will develop into good NFL players. Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I fully agree that the Saints do have a guard-driven O-line, which does suit the playing style of Brees. But the Saints don't really have any real depth behind their OTs and I still think that Strief should not be a starter and having such a strong pair of guards have helped the O-line to get away with shotty OT play - yes I'm looking at you Bushrod - but upgrading those positions would pay dividends with running plays and screen game as well as pass protection. Sure there are other parts of the team that need upgrading as well, but as far as this O-line thread goes, it's clear to me that they need some upgrades on their OTs if they want the performance level to remain about the same.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

07-24-2012, 02:04 PM	#28
darstep SaintSince67 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: PortCity Posts: 2,044	IMO, the Saints became incerasingly pass happy under Payton. When Duece was pounding the rock there was much better balance. Payton spoke often of 30/30, and then would have Brees sling 40+ times. Brees has avoided enough sacks to have had 40 in any given season. Many of the sacks he ended up with were 3rd and long, and without conversion, we were punting anyway. Very few of those were blind side miscues. Thank you Lord! Our O-line is fine. I would love to see a more consistent 30/30 so Brees doesn't start to think that he has to make everything happen or bare the full load for our success, and ends up with his pickle in a pickle.
	SaintSince67

07-24-2012, 02:54 PM	#29
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Would like to get a road grader at Right Tackle, but that would be a luxury as this offense has very few weaknesses... The Left Tackle could be improved - but where do you find the money for such a player? Keep drafting OL in rounds 3-5 and develop to replace those who want to break the bank as Nicks (don't blame him) would have done... Offensive Linemen are important, but they don't pass or score touchdowns...

07-24-2012, 03:22 PM	#30
darstep SaintSince67 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: PortCity Posts: 2,044	It's really kind of hard to be a good tackle if you are lined up next to a poor guard, and vice versa. Last year, week for or five, the O-line found it's groove, started getting some push, and everything else started to work beautifully. I think they will find that groove again this year with Grubbs and have another good season. Our versatility makes it much easier for our guys to keep defenders on their heels.

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