saint need to make a couple of trades

GumboBC · 06-05-2004, 05:01 PM

SaintFanInATLHELL --

That was one GREAT post. And it\'s what I\'ve been trying to say. How anyone can think that getting a couple of shut-down corners is going to magically solve are problems is misguided, IMO.

A couple of points you make are very good and I feel EXACTLY the same way.

Personally I think that the breakdown is in the defensive coaching scheme. Venturi seems to be afraid of giving up the big play.

I could not agree more.

The way I see if the Saints defense needs to Keep It Simple: Stop the rush then blitz the pass all game long.
The problem I saw with the ineffective rush defense is that it set up 2nd and 3rd and short yardage all the time. That\'s prime winning down and distance for opposing offenses, especially an offense that has had success rushing and passing the ball during the course of the game. So the defensive scheme has to be set up to stop the run game.

Now, that\'s exactly the way I see it. That\'s the only way you can look at it.

SaintFanInATLHELL - Great post. Keep \'em coming :thumbup:

[Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]

turbo_dog · 06-05-2004, 07:09 PM

Wow. Lots of good posts. This is the kind of intelligent arguing that keeps me coming back to this forum. Excellent comments and statistics, and all without name-calling and angry typing.

I certainly can\'t compete with all of the statistics and insight that has preceded this post in the thread, but I want to give my opinion. So here goes.

The fact that we gave up so many runs of 20 yards or longer is horrible compared to the low numbers of other teams. I also think that this stat is important for the point I am getting to:
20+ yds allowd = 38 - Rank 9th
40+ allowed = 2 - Rank 2nd

The difference between those rankings shows that our CBs played solid coverage, and/or that our pass rush was good enough to pressure the QB before their recievers could get that far downfield. Sure, we don\'t have a big name corner, but we have corners who play hard. It wouldn\'t hurt to have a \"shutdown\" corner but Thomas, Brown, Craft, and Ambrose are a decent combination and provide a set of servicable players, barring injury. To be honest, our lack of depth at safety concerns me more. We don\'t really know how good of a player Mel Mitchell is no matter what Haslett says about him. I think we let Victor Green go. The only consolation is that Cie Grant and/or Craver can probably be converted to safety if they have to be. As far as the Dline goes, it seems to me that we have as much or more talent and depth as any team in the league.

All of this brings me to my original point. The problem with our defense has been our linebackers. The runs of 20 yards or more seems to show this. If a running back got 5 - 10 yards from the line of scrimmage it was basically up to the backfield to tackle them. This is reflected in the fact that Jay Bellamy and Fred Thomas led the team in tackles with 20 more than the closest linebacker. Our linebackers just didn\'t seem to be instinctive enough. I\'m hoping that Courtney Watson will begin a turnaround with our LBs. From what I\'ve seen/read about him he has that football instinct combined with intelligence and athleticism. I\'m hoping James Allen will turn out to be a pretty good outside linebacker, he seems the best of the \"potential players\" at that position.

I\'ll leave you with this.

85 Bears
LB Mike Singletary
LB Otis Wilson
LB Wilbur Marshall

90 Giants
LB Lawrance Taylor
LB Pepper Johnson
LB Leonard Marshall

Dome Patrol
LB Sam Mills
LB Rickey Jackson
LB Pat Swilling
LB Vaughn Johnson

Now can you quickly name the starting CBs from each of these teams?

D_it_up · 06-06-2004, 09:25 AM

The only CB I can remember during the Dome Patrol days was Toi Cook...and if memory serves me correctly, he was burned more than Michael Jackson filming a Pepsi commercial.

Euphoria · 06-06-2004, 10:02 AM

I liked Toi Cook but he wasn\'t a shut down CB... and the LB\'s we had were not great but together they were.

WhoDat · 06-06-2004, 12:03 PM

The only CB I can remember during the Dome Patrol days was Toi Cook...and if memory serves me correctly, he was burned more than Michael Jackson filming a Pepsi commercial.

Amen to that. Lest we not forget Massey and Maxie. Ouch. The only good secondary players we ever had on those great defenses were Gene Atkins and David Waymer.

coastalkid · 06-08-2004, 01:09 PM

It\'s been said many times already but I\'ll say it again.....Pass Rush!!!!!!!!! That will make even a average DB look better than what we had last year. If our pass rush is what it should be (please help MR. Pease) then our secondary will stand a better chance of covering someone. No one can cover a receiver all day long. If you allow the QB to have all day to sit and look the field over he WILL find someone. PASS RUSHthat\'s what we need more than any specific corner back!

lumm0x · 06-09-2004, 12:05 AM

I can name the corners from your post but I get your point. Billy I agree that shutdown corners are not a necessity to a good defense. It all depends on the scheme you are running as well as the offense you are defending. The key ingredient in the three teams you mentioned was pocket pressure. All three of these teams ran a defense geared around backfield disruption and QB pressure through unpredictable blitz packages. All three also had a similar weapon of a dominant edge rusher. Perhaps Will Smith can be exactly that. It appeared to me that Rick Venturi\'s style is simply too conservative and he attempted to band aid our lack of competency in coverage with soft schemes designed to allow short to medium yardage plays and minimize long gains. Our lack of tackling consistency did nothing to make this better. In allowing offenses the opportunity to move the ball effortlessly within this range, we allowed lasting drives. As Coastalkid stated, we need to force QB\'s and the entire offensive backfield and make them react to us, not the other way around. If nothing else we should have a youthful front 7 that should be allowed to use that athleticism to attack the line of scrimmage with the potential of creating big defensive plays. Our corners will get beat at times but we will also stop more drives with turnovers, offensive penalties and sacks on 3rd down.

BigB · 06-11-2004, 09:47 AM

My only response to all this defense talk is this....
Saints 2003 regular season tackles:

Jay Bellamy 94
Fred Thomas 85
Derrick Rodgers 74
Orlando Ruff 69
Tebucky Jones 69
Darrin Smith 60
Charles Grant 57
Ashley Ambrose 47
Kenny Smith 42
Willie Whitehead 40

I only included the top 10 to illustrate this fact....our top two tacklers last year were DB\'s. Shouldn\'t a linebacker or D-lineman be leading in this regard? What this tells me is that our D-line and linebackers can\'t tackle and we had waaaay to many RB\'s being tackled by our secondary....4-6 yards downfield.

WhoDat · 06-11-2004, 03:40 PM

Dlinemen never lead a team in tackles. Their primary job is to plug holes. A linebacker SHOULD be the leading tackler, though it is not uncommon to see a safety with a whole lot of tackles b/c they often come up in run support and accrue tackles in the defensive backfield as well.

The key to all of this is the running game. I think our DBS are hurt by the fact that they have to contribute to stopping the running game so much. If we can stop the running game with our front seven, we\'ll be fine. If we have to put a safety in the box, we\'ll be in trouble no matter how well we rush the passer. That was Knight\'s undoing in NO. His \'lack of speed\' was only \'exposed\' b/c he was often outrun b/c he only started 7 yards off the line of scrimmage instead of the 15 yards deep a safety normally plays.

Euphoria · 06-12-2004, 08:45 AM

You are on the money. When you lineman and LB\'s are stopping the run they get more tackles. When you DB\'s lead the team in tackling the front 7 are not getting the job done.

06-05-2004, 05:01 PM	#21
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	saint need to make a couple of trades SaintFanInATLHELL -- That was one GREAT post. And it\'s what I\'ve been trying to say. How anyone can think that getting a couple of shut-down corners is going to magically solve are problems is misguided, IMO. A couple of points you make are very good and I feel EXACTLY the same way. Personally I think that the breakdown is in the defensive coaching scheme. Venturi seems to be afraid of giving up the big play. I could not agree more. The way I see if the Saints defense needs to Keep It Simple: Stop the rush then blitz the pass all game long. The problem I saw with the ineffective rush defense is that it set up 2nd and 3rd and short yardage all the time. That\'s prime winning down and distance for opposing offenses, especially an offense that has had success rushing and passing the ball during the course of the game. So the defensive scheme has to be set up to stop the run game. Now, that\'s exactly the way I see it. That\'s the only way you can look at it. SaintFanInATLHELL - Great post. Keep \'em coming :thumbup: [Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-05-2004, 07:09 PM	#22
turbo_dog 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,592	saint need to make a couple of trades Wow. Lots of good posts. This is the kind of intelligent arguing that keeps me coming back to this forum. Excellent comments and statistics, and all without name-calling and angry typing. I certainly can\'t compete with all of the statistics and insight that has preceded this post in the thread, but I want to give my opinion. So here goes. The fact that we gave up so many runs of 20 yards or longer is horrible compared to the low numbers of other teams. I also think that this stat is important for the point I am getting to: 20+ yds allowd = 38 - Rank 9th 40+ allowed = 2 - Rank 2nd The difference between those rankings shows that our CBs played solid coverage, and/or that our pass rush was good enough to pressure the QB before their recievers could get that far downfield. Sure, we don\'t have a big name corner, but we have corners who play hard. It wouldn\'t hurt to have a \"shutdown\" corner but Thomas, Brown, Craft, and Ambrose are a decent combination and provide a set of servicable players, barring injury. To be honest, our lack of depth at safety concerns me more. We don\'t really know how good of a player Mel Mitchell is no matter what Haslett says about him. I think we let Victor Green go. The only consolation is that Cie Grant and/or Craver can probably be converted to safety if they have to be. As far as the Dline goes, it seems to me that we have as much or more talent and depth as any team in the league. All of this brings me to my original point. The problem with our defense has been our linebackers. The runs of 20 yards or more seems to show this. If a running back got 5 - 10 yards from the line of scrimmage it was basically up to the backfield to tackle them. This is reflected in the fact that Jay Bellamy and Fred Thomas led the team in tackles with 20 more than the closest linebacker. Our linebackers just didn\'t seem to be instinctive enough. I\'m hoping that Courtney Watson will begin a turnaround with our LBs. From what I\'ve seen/read about him he has that football instinct combined with intelligence and athleticism. I\'m hoping James Allen will turn out to be a pretty good outside linebacker, he seems the best of the \"potential players\" at that position. I\'ll leave you with this. 85 Bears LB Mike Singletary LB Otis Wilson LB Wilbur Marshall 90 Giants LB Lawrance Taylor LB Pepper Johnson LB Leonard Marshall Dome Patrol LB Sam Mills LB Rickey Jackson LB Pat Swilling LB Vaughn Johnson Now can you quickly name the starting CBs from each of these teams?

06-06-2004, 09:25 AM	#23
D_it_up Faqda Falcons Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ruston, Louisiana Posts: 3,465 Blog Entries: 3	saint need to make a couple of trades The only CB I can remember during the Dome Patrol days was Toi Cook...and if memory serves me correctly, he was burned more than Michael Jackson filming a Pepsi commercial.

06-06-2004, 10:02 AM	#24
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	saint need to make a couple of trades I liked Toi Cook but he wasn\'t a shut down CB... and the LB\'s we had were not great but together they were.

06-06-2004, 12:03 PM	#25
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	saint need to make a couple of trades The only CB I can remember during the Dome Patrol days was Toi Cook...and if memory serves me correctly, he was burned more than Michael Jackson filming a Pepsi commercial. Amen to that. Lest we not forget Massey and Maxie. Ouch. The only good secondary players we ever had on those great defenses were Gene Atkins and David Waymer.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

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06-08-2004, 01:09 PM	#26
coastalkid 100th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 287	saint need to make a couple of trades It\'s been said many times already but I\'ll say it again.....Pass Rush!!!!!!!!! That will make even a average DB look better than what we had last year. If our pass rush is what it should be (please help MR. Pease) then our secondary will stand a better chance of covering someone. No one can cover a receiver all day long. If you allow the QB to have all day to sit and look the field over he WILL find someone. PASS RUSHthat\'s what we need more than any specific corner back!

06-09-2004, 12:05 AM	#27
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	saint need to make a couple of trades I can name the corners from your post but I get your point. Billy I agree that shutdown corners are not a necessity to a good defense. It all depends on the scheme you are running as well as the offense you are defending. The key ingredient in the three teams you mentioned was pocket pressure. All three of these teams ran a defense geared around backfield disruption and QB pressure through unpredictable blitz packages. All three also had a similar weapon of a dominant edge rusher. Perhaps Will Smith can be exactly that. It appeared to me that Rick Venturi\'s style is simply too conservative and he attempted to band aid our lack of competency in coverage with soft schemes designed to allow short to medium yardage plays and minimize long gains. Our lack of tackling consistency did nothing to make this better. In allowing offenses the opportunity to move the ball effortlessly within this range, we allowed lasting drives. As Coastalkid stated, we need to force QB\'s and the entire offensive backfield and make them react to us, not the other way around. If nothing else we should have a youthful front 7 that should be allowed to use that athleticism to attack the line of scrimmage with the potential of creating big defensive plays. Our corners will get beat at times but we will also stop more drives with turnovers, offensive penalties and sacks on 3rd down.

06-11-2004, 09:47 AM	#28
BigB Rookie Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Lake Charles Posts: 16	saint need to make a couple of trades My only response to all this defense talk is this.... Saints 2003 regular season tackles: Jay Bellamy 94 Fred Thomas 85 Derrick Rodgers 74 Orlando Ruff 69 Tebucky Jones 69 Darrin Smith 60 Charles Grant 57 Ashley Ambrose 47 Kenny Smith 42 Willie Whitehead 40 I only included the top 10 to illustrate this fact....our top two tacklers last year were DB\'s. Shouldn\'t a linebacker or D-lineman be leading in this regard? What this tells me is that our D-line and linebackers can\'t tackle and we had waaaay to many RB\'s being tackled by our secondary....4-6 yards downfield.
	\"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place\"

06-11-2004, 03:40 PM	#29
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	saint need to make a couple of trades Dlinemen never lead a team in tackles. Their primary job is to plug holes. A linebacker SHOULD be the leading tackler, though it is not uncommon to see a safety with a whole lot of tackles b/c they often come up in run support and accrue tackles in the defensive backfield as well. The key to all of this is the running game. I think our DBS are hurt by the fact that they have to contribute to stopping the running game so much. If we can stop the running game with our front seven, we\'ll be fine. If we have to put a safety in the box, we\'ll be in trouble no matter how well we rush the passer. That was Knight\'s undoing in NO. His \'lack of speed\' was only \'exposed\' b/c he was often outrun b/c he only started 7 yards off the line of scrimmage instead of the 15 yards deep a safety normally plays.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-12-2004, 08:45 AM	#30
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	saint need to make a couple of trades You are on the money. When you lineman and LB\'s are stopping the run they get more tackles. When you DB\'s lead the team in tackling the front 7 are not getting the job done.