saint need to make a couple of trades

harlan08 · 06-04-2004, 01:00 AM

i think the saints need trade both their second round picks for
McKienze and Samiri Rolle,, then the secondary is good for sometime ...
cant always look towards the future gotta go for it now...
2 second rounders is a step price,, but atleast u know what players
they are without having to guess draft time....

Euphoria · 06-04-2004, 07:32 AM

IF we did that we are going to find ourselves in cap trouble in a hurry.

SaintShreve · 06-04-2004, 08:20 AM

You keep talking about cap trouble... I thought we were $11 mil under the cap?!? (that\'s the figure I\'ve read recently) It seems to me that all that room under the cap does us no good if we don\'t use it to pick up good players. Now, I\'m not saying that McKenzie (who I think is lucky more than good) or Rolle (Gettin\' up there in mileage) are the best uses of our moo-lah, but I think we should entertain the idea.

The notion that we should just \"line up with what we\'ve got\" is asinine. Didn\'t we buy that line last year? We said last year that we needed to shore up the D, especially the CB\'s, and we didn\'t. We got Sully, who (looking for silver linings here) gave us the ability to jettison the Big Wiggle and Gravy Jackson, but obviously was not the answer. The only reason our pass D looked better on paper was that no one needed to risk INTs or dropped passes when they could hand the ball off for 4-6 yds per carry.

So, let\'s get some help on D. Trotter would be nice, McKenzie/Rolle if nothing else better is out there, or trade draft picks for Ty Law (or Sullivan + draft picks for Law if he keeps up the Gravy Jackson routine).

I\'m glad we\'ve got a whole corps of WR\'s - we\'re gonna need \'em to put up enough points to bail out our D...

GumboBC · 06-04-2004, 10:45 AM

The only reason our pass D looked better on paper was that no one needed to risk INTs or dropped passes when they could hand the ball off for 4-6 yds per carry.

Edit: I\"m going to post this same post every time someone makes this statement until someone can provide me with some evidence showing other wise. :P There were a bunch of folks saying this samething in the past.

I agree we should try and upgrade our team whenever possible. Providing its a good deal. But, I disagree on the above statement.

I think it\'s a natural assumption for some to think because our run defense gave up a lot of yards that it helped our pass defense. Especially when there are a lot of the media folks going around preaching this stuff without ever really looking at the situation a littler deeper.

Let me try and explain how our poor run defense did NOT help our pass defense. Hopefully, this will put an end to all these myths.

Here\'s the thing about our run defense. We were ranked 31st in the NFL at giving up runs of 20 or more yards. We allowed 16 runs of 20 or more yards. That\'s next to last in the league, by the way.

To put that into perspective:

Runs of 20+
New Orleans 16
Tennessee 2
New England 2
Baltimore 3
Dallas 5
Miami 5
Buffalo 5
Jacksonville 5
Carolina 8

What does this have to do with anything? Well, it means that a LOT of the yardage given up on the ground was in large chunks.

The yardage given up by our run defense is kinda misleading.

For large portions of games, teams weren\'t running the ball that effectively and controlling the clock. Which is ONE of the reasons our defense was on the field less than Jacksonvile.

Saints=29:46 defense on field
Jaguars= 29:51 defense on field

The Jaguars just didn\'t give up as many LONG running plays

Saints 20+ = 16
Jaguars 20+ = 5

To once and for all put an end to the myth that our run defense helped our pass defense. Consider this:

Pass attempts per game against Saints defense = 30.3

That\'s the 7th fewest in the league. And that\'s what everyone wants to point to and hang their hat on.

However, do you know how many passes were thrown againt the team who was passed on the 8th most in the NFL??

It was 33.1 pass attempts per game(Miami Dolphins). Which is a WHOPPING difference of 2.8 more pass attempts per game. That\'s hardly enough help a pass defense out.

Bottom line is our pass defense was passed on 30.3 times per game and it really wouldn\'t have made a difference if teams would have rushed for 1-million yards per game. It\'s how many times teams attempted to throw the ball against our secondary that counts.

And for final proof that our secondary was passed on as much as just about any other team in the league:

Team/ Pass att. per game
Indianapolis 27.8
New York (A) 28.4
Oakland 29.2
Tampa Bay 29.7
Washington 30.2
Pittsburgh 30.2
New Orleans 30.3
Dallas 30.8
Denver 30.9
Arizona 31.1
Cleveland 31.4
Houston 31.4
Buffalo 31.8
Atlanta 31.8
Cincinnati 31.8
St. Louis 31.9
Jacksonville 31.9
San Francisco 32.1
New York (N) 32.4
Carolina 32.6
Detroit 32.6
San Diego 32.8
Chicago 32.8
Miami 33.1
Baltimore 33.2
Minnesota 33.2

[Edited on 4/6/2004 by GumboBC]

bjd9044 · 06-05-2004, 02:13 AM

I am so confused after reading all your great research and beating my own head on the wall. Hell we my be arguing the same point but here we go...

The Saints had 264 pass att againts them all year which was second fewest to Dallas at 239. Second fewest, but we gave up 12 yards per rec thats fourth worst, right, ouch. To me thats not needing to throw alot to get your yards.
Now 30.3 thats 7th fewest but the most was New England with 38.6, you said Miama was 8th most with 33.1 but the fewest was the Colts with 27.8 NOW
from 7th fewest to fewest is 2.5
from 8th most to most is 5.5
thats a difference of 3
when you are giving up 12 yards per rec thats a big difference thats 36 yards per game add that to the end of every game we won by 3 points or less and tell me 36 yards might not have made a difference.

Now rushing
we had the 8th most att per game with 30 with the 4th worst average with 4.7
if you add that to the 1012 penelty yards for the season you\'ll get a 5.2 yards per play

All I\'m saying is why pass it for 12 yards a play when you can run it for 4.7 and rest your Defense. We should be glad we went 8-8 from all this crap I just read we should have gone 3-13

GumboBC · 06-05-2004, 02:51 AM

Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044
The Saints had 264 pass att againts them all year which was second fewest to Dallas at 239.

For the record, that statement is incorrect. Our defense was passed on 485 times. 264 was the number of COMPLETIONS. It\'s just our pass defense only allowed a completion rate of 54.4% which was 4th BEST in the entire NFL.

Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044
I am so confused after reading all your great research and beating my own head on the wall. Hell we my be arguing the same point but here we go...

Yeah, it was kinda confusing, I admit.

To put it simply, our defense was passed on 30.3 times per game. That\'s as much or within 1 or 2 passes per game of just about EVERY other defense in the NFL.

How many times does our defense need to be passed on to prove itself? 40? 50? How many times?

Look at the pass attempts per game for these other teams:

Indianapolis 27.8
New York (A) 28.4
Oakland 29.2
Tampa Bay 29.7
Washington 30.2
Pittsburgh 30.2
New Orleans 30.3
Dallas 30.8
Denver 30.9
Arizona 31.1
Cleveland 31.4
Houston 31.4
Buffalo 31.8
Atlanta 31.8
Cincinnati 31.8
St. Louis 31.9
Jacksonville 31.9

About the same, right? I could care less how many times a team rushed the ball on us. It isn\'t hard to understand that when a team passes the ball 30.3 per game and our pass defense is ranked 8th in the league that it can\'t be that bad.

Bottom line is you can\'t say our defense wasn\'t passed on any less than most any other team in the NFL.

[Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]

GumboBC · 06-05-2004, 03:20 AM

P.S. -- Here\'s the ranking in some of the more important catorgies......

Saints pass defense:
Yds per game = 197.8 - Rank 8th
TD allowed = 20 - Tied for 9th
20+ yds allowd = 38 - Rank 9th
40+ allowed = 2 - Rank 2nd
Comp % = 54.4 - Rank 4th

[Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]

bjd9044 · 06-05-2004, 04:04 AM

See here is a problem, 12 yards per catch is 4th WORST in the league! Thats bad.
And yes the yards are gonna down on the passing side of it when the are running for 140.1 Yards per game at 4.7 yards per run
I do understand that the passing stats are down but I watched every game and seen the plays and can say to you SIR our CBs suck, you get a led and run the clock out. Thats how they do it now. WHY PASS WHEN YOU ARE GETTING 4.7 YARDS PER CARRY.
Here is something else to ponder, out of 264 COMPLETIONS only 99 were stopped short of a first down, the least, by far in the league.

GumboBC · 06-05-2004, 04:34 AM

First things first. You want to say because our pass defense allowed 12 yds per catch that they sucked....

Take a look at these teams average yds per catch. It\'s mighty close. Do they all suck?

Team/Avg. yds per catch
New Orleans 12.0
Minnesota 12.0
Dallas 11.8
Washington 11.8
Denver 11.5
Tennessee 11.5
St. Louis 16 11.4
San Francisco 11.4
Jacksonville 11.2
Miami 11.2
Indianapolis 11.0
Pittsburgh 11.0
Green Bay 11.0

So, I think that shoots that arguement down.

Our secondary had a couple of bad games. But, for the most part they played solid.

And our run defense had nothing to do with it. Teams could have rushed for 10.0 yds per carry, but it did not change the fact they passed on us 30.3 times per game.

Yes, we could be better, but we could certainly be worse.

Edit:

Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044
Here is something else to ponder, out of 264 COMPLETIONS only 99 were stopped short of a first down, the least, by far in the league.

That\'s an incorrect statement also. Let\'s compare that to some of the best defenses in the league. I included the Redskins cause they have 2 probowl CB.

Team/att/comp/1st downs allowed
Carolina/ 522 /299 / 161
Washington/ 483 / 285 / 176
Jacksonville/ 510 / 303 / 172
New Orleans/ 485 / 264 / 165

[Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]

bjd9044 · 06-05-2004, 05:10 AM

Yes, yes I do.
12 yards per catch is at the very bottom of the league, bad enough to have you edit your post?
Lookthe difference between 12 YPC and 11 YPC is the difference between 4th worst and 7th best in a league of 32, big swing.
Now I\'m not saying the DBs are responsible for everything, cause 4.7 YPC is not satisfactory. 140.1 YPG is plain rediculus. So please dont take it the wrong way.
If ya say 12 is the same as 11 and they throw the ball 30 times a game thats 30 yards, right? Then you say 30 and 33 att is the same at 12 YPC thats 36 yards, right?
Now 30 + 36= 66. 66 yards per game you are not seeing, and if I did not see 66 Yards Per Game I guess Iwould think our DBs are good enough to have another 7-9 or 8-8 or look out 9-7 season.
But I aint, we need to spend some money to make some money. Get a CB and lets push into the playoffs a little further this year, if ya\'ll want to.

06-04-2004, 01:00 AM	#1
harlan08 Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5	saint need to make a couple of trades i think the saints need trade both their second round picks for McKienze and Samiri Rolle,, then the secondary is good for sometime ... cant always look towards the future gotta go for it now... 2 second rounders is a step price,, but atleast u know what players they are without having to guess draft time....
harlan08 Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5

06-04-2004, 07:32 AM	#2
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	saint need to make a couple of trades IF we did that we are going to find ourselves in cap trouble in a hurry.

06-04-2004, 08:20 AM	#3
SaintShreve Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Shreveport, LA Posts: 16	saint need to make a couple of trades You keep talking about cap trouble... I thought we were $11 mil under the cap?!? (that\'s the figure I\'ve read recently) It seems to me that all that room under the cap does us no good if we don\'t use it to pick up good players. Now, I\'m not saying that McKenzie (who I think is lucky more than good) or Rolle (Gettin\' up there in mileage) are the best uses of our moo-lah, but I think we should entertain the idea. The notion that we should just \"line up with what we\'ve got\" is asinine. Didn\'t we buy that line last year? We said last year that we needed to shore up the D, especially the CB\'s, and we didn\'t. We got Sully, who (looking for silver linings here) gave us the ability to jettison the Big Wiggle and Gravy Jackson, but obviously was not the answer. The only reason our pass D looked better on paper was that no one needed to risk INTs or dropped passes when they could hand the ball off for 4-6 yds per carry. So, let\'s get some help on D. Trotter would be nice, McKenzie/Rolle if nothing else better is out there, or trade draft picks for Ty Law (or Sullivan + draft picks for Law if he keeps up the Gravy Jackson routine). I\'m glad we\'ve got a whole corps of WR\'s - we\'re gonna need \'em to put up enough points to bail out our D...
	Every man knows he is a sissy when compared to Johnny Cash... - U2\'s Bono

06-04-2004, 10:45 AM	#4
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	saint need to make a couple of trades The only reason our pass D looked better on paper was that no one needed to risk INTs or dropped passes when they could hand the ball off for 4-6 yds per carry. Edit: I\"m going to post this same post every time someone makes this statement until someone can provide me with some evidence showing other wise. :P There were a bunch of folks saying this samething in the past. I agree we should try and upgrade our team whenever possible. Providing its a good deal. But, I disagree on the above statement. I think it\'s a natural assumption for some to think because our run defense gave up a lot of yards that it helped our pass defense. Especially when there are a lot of the media folks going around preaching this stuff without ever really looking at the situation a littler deeper. Let me try and explain how our poor run defense did NOT help our pass defense. Hopefully, this will put an end to all these myths. Here\'s the thing about our run defense. We were ranked 31st in the NFL at giving up runs of 20 or more yards. We allowed 16 runs of 20 or more yards. That\'s next to last in the league, by the way. To put that into perspective: Runs of 20+ New Orleans 16 Tennessee 2 New England 2 Baltimore 3 Dallas 5 Miami 5 Buffalo 5 Jacksonville 5 Carolina 8 What does this have to do with anything? Well, it means that a LOT of the yardage given up on the ground was in large chunks. The yardage given up by our run defense is kinda misleading. For large portions of games, teams weren\'t running the ball that effectively and controlling the clock. Which is ONE of the reasons our defense was on the field less than Jacksonvile. Saints=29:46 defense on field Jaguars= 29:51 defense on field The Jaguars just didn\'t give up as many LONG running plays Saints 20+ = 16 Jaguars 20+ = 5 To once and for all put an end to the myth that our run defense helped our pass defense. Consider this: Pass attempts per game against Saints defense = 30.3 That\'s the 7th fewest in the league. And that\'s what everyone wants to point to and hang their hat on. However, do you know how many passes were thrown againt the team who was passed on the 8th most in the NFL?? It was 33.1 pass attempts per game(Miami Dolphins). Which is a WHOPPING difference of 2.8 more pass attempts per game. That\'s hardly enough help a pass defense out. Bottom line is our pass defense was passed on 30.3 times per game and it really wouldn\'t have made a difference if teams would have rushed for 1-million yards per game. It\'s how many times teams attempted to throw the ball against our secondary that counts. And for final proof that our secondary was passed on as much as just about any other team in the league: Team/ Pass att. per game Indianapolis 27.8 New York (A) 28.4 Oakland 29.2 Tampa Bay 29.7 Washington 30.2 Pittsburgh 30.2 New Orleans 30.3 Dallas 30.8 Denver 30.9 Arizona 31.1 Cleveland 31.4 Houston 31.4 Buffalo 31.8 Atlanta 31.8 Cincinnati 31.8 St. Louis 31.9 Jacksonville 31.9 San Francisco 32.1 New York (N) 32.4 Carolina 32.6 Detroit 32.6 San Diego 32.8 Chicago 32.8 Miami 33.1 Baltimore 33.2 Minnesota 33.2 [Edited on 4/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-05-2004, 02:13 AM	#5
bjd9044 Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lake Charles, La Posts: 21	saint need to make a couple of trades I am so confused after reading all your great research and beating my own head on the wall. Hell we my be arguing the same point but here we go... The Saints had 264 pass att againts them all year which was second fewest to Dallas at 239. Second fewest, but we gave up 12 yards per rec thats fourth worst, right, ouch. To me thats not needing to throw alot to get your yards. Now 30.3 thats 7th fewest but the most was New England with 38.6, you said Miama was 8th most with 33.1 but the fewest was the Colts with 27.8 NOW from 7th fewest to fewest is 2.5 from 8th most to most is 5.5 thats a difference of 3 when you are giving up 12 yards per rec thats a big difference thats 36 yards per game add that to the end of every game we won by 3 points or less and tell me 36 yards might not have made a difference. Now rushing we had the 8th most att per game with 30 with the 4th worst average with 4.7 if you add that to the 1012 penelty yards for the season you\'ll get a 5.2 yards per play All I\'m saying is why pass it for 12 yards a play when you can run it for 4.7 and rest your Defense. We should be glad we went 8-8 from all this crap I just read we should have gone 3-13
	Brad\'s FootBall is Saints News and Message Board [url]http://bradsfootball.sports-reports.com/[/url]

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06-05-2004, 02:51 AM	#6
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	saint need to make a couple of trades Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044 The Saints had 264 pass att againts them all year which was second fewest to Dallas at 239. For the record, that statement is incorrect. Our defense was passed on 485 times. 264 was the number of COMPLETIONS. It\'s just our pass defense only allowed a completion rate of 54.4% which was 4th BEST in the entire NFL. Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044 I am so confused after reading all your great research and beating my own head on the wall. Hell we my be arguing the same point but here we go... Yeah, it was kinda confusing, I admit. To put it simply, our defense was passed on 30.3 times per game. That\'s as much or within 1 or 2 passes per game of just about EVERY other defense in the NFL. How many times does our defense need to be passed on to prove itself? 40? 50? How many times? Look at the pass attempts per game for these other teams: Indianapolis 27.8 New York (A) 28.4 Oakland 29.2 Tampa Bay 29.7 Washington 30.2 Pittsburgh 30.2 New Orleans 30.3 Dallas 30.8 Denver 30.9 Arizona 31.1 Cleveland 31.4 Houston 31.4 Buffalo 31.8 Atlanta 31.8 Cincinnati 31.8 St. Louis 31.9 Jacksonville 31.9 About the same, right? I could care less how many times a team rushed the ball on us. It isn\'t hard to understand that when a team passes the ball 30.3 per game and our pass defense is ranked 8th in the league that it can\'t be that bad. Bottom line is you can\'t say our defense wasn\'t passed on any less than most any other team in the NFL. [Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-05-2004, 03:20 AM	#7
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	saint need to make a couple of trades P.S. -- Here\'s the ranking in some of the more important catorgies...... Saints pass defense: Yds per game = 197.8 - Rank 8th TD allowed = 20 - Tied for 9th 20+ yds allowd = 38 - Rank 9th 40+ allowed = 2 - Rank 2nd Comp % = 54.4 - Rank 4th [Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-05-2004, 04:04 AM	#8
bjd9044 Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lake Charles, La Posts: 21	saint need to make a couple of trades See here is a problem, 12 yards per catch is 4th WORST in the league! Thats bad. And yes the yards are gonna down on the passing side of it when the are running for 140.1 Yards per game at 4.7 yards per run I do understand that the passing stats are down but I watched every game and seen the plays and can say to you SIR our CBs suck, you get a led and run the clock out. Thats how they do it now. WHY PASS WHEN YOU ARE GETTING 4.7 YARDS PER CARRY. Here is something else to ponder, out of 264 COMPLETIONS only 99 were stopped short of a first down, the least, by far in the league.
	Brad\'s FootBall is Saints News and Message Board [url]http://bradsfootball.sports-reports.com/[/url]

06-05-2004, 04:34 AM	#9
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	saint need to make a couple of trades First things first. You want to say because our pass defense allowed 12 yds per catch that they sucked.... Take a look at these teams average yds per catch. It\'s mighty close. Do they all suck? Team/Avg. yds per catch New Orleans 12.0 Minnesota 12.0 Dallas 11.8 Washington 11.8 Denver 11.5 Tennessee 11.5 St. Louis 16 11.4 San Francisco 11.4 Jacksonville 11.2 Miami 11.2 Indianapolis 11.0 Pittsburgh 11.0 Green Bay 11.0 So, I think that shoots that arguement down. Our secondary had a couple of bad games. But, for the most part they played solid. And our run defense had nothing to do with it. Teams could have rushed for 10.0 yds per carry, but it did not change the fact they passed on us 30.3 times per game. Yes, we could be better, but we could certainly be worse. Edit: Orginally Quoted by: bjd9044 Here is something else to ponder, out of 264 COMPLETIONS only 99 were stopped short of a first down, the least, by far in the league. That\'s an incorrect statement also. Let\'s compare that to some of the best defenses in the league. I included the Redskins cause they have 2 probowl CB. Team/att/comp/1st downs allowed Carolina/ 522 /299 / 161 Washington/ 483 / 285 / 176 Jacksonville/ 510 / 303 / 172 New Orleans/ 485 / 264 / 165 [Edited on 5/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-05-2004, 05:10 AM	#10
bjd9044 Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lake Charles, La Posts: 21	saint need to make a couple of trades Yes, yes I do. 12 yards per catch is at the very bottom of the league, bad enough to have you edit your post? Lookthe difference between 12 YPC and 11 YPC is the difference between 4th worst and 7th best in a league of 32, big swing. Now I\'m not saying the DBs are responsible for everything, cause 4.7 YPC is not satisfactory. 140.1 YPG is plain rediculus. So please dont take it the wrong way. If ya say 12 is the same as 11 and they throw the ball 30 times a game thats 30 yards, right? Then you say 30 and 33 att is the same at 12 YPC thats 36 yards, right? Now 30 + 36= 66. 66 yards per game you are not seeing, and if I did not see 66 Yards Per Game I guess Iwould think our DBs are good enough to have another 7-9 or 8-8 or look out 9-7 season. But I aint, we need to spend some money to make some money. Get a CB and lets push into the playoffs a little further this year, if ya\'ll want to.
	Brad\'s FootBall is Saints News and Message Board [url]http://bradsfootball.sports-reports.com/[/url]