Whose play dropped off at season's end?

Puddinhead · 07-19-2004, 02:49 PM

If you asked 10 Saints fans after the 2003 season, you'd probably get either 9 or 10 who would buy into the "national" perception that once again the Saints had swooned in December despite a 2-2 record in that month. If you took the question a little further and asked which player was most responsible for this, I'm guessing that at least 8 of the 10 would answer "Aaron Brooks...he always falters when it's most important."

Why do you think these fans have that opinion? Last year, when unlike in 2002 Brooks wasn't playing with a ruptured tendon in his shoulder, he finished out the year with 200+ passes without an interception, and some of his best play of the season. In contrast, a player who we all think of as our steadiest and most reliable, Deuce McAllister, had a pretty rough ending to his year. As Pat Kirwin at NFL.com pointed out:

Deuce McAllister is one of the better running backs in the NFL but down the stretch last year he managed only 248 yards rushing in 79 attempts with no touchdowns over the last four games. Did he run out of gas? He can't afford a fall off like that again in 2004.

No one blames McAllister's lack of production down the stretch for the Saints' failure to make the playoffs again (and I don't think they should), and yet it seems hardly anyone has any qualms about laying that failure at the feet of Aaron Brooks, who actually played some of his best ball at the end of the season last year.

saintz08 · 07-19-2004, 03:20 PM

No one blames McAllister\'s lack of production down the stretch for the Saints\' failure to make the playoffs again (and I don\'t think they should), and yet it seems hardly anyone has any qualms about laying that failure at the feet of Aaron Brooks, who actually played some of his best ball at the end of the season last year.

Some may actually forget that defenses keyed on Mc Alister 100% of the time . No longer do opposing defenses spy for the once famous broken play running style of Brooks for 10 to 15 yards .The only question left to ask is \" Deuce left or Deuce right ?\"..

Puddinhead · 07-19-2004, 04:17 PM

Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run. And that just didn\'t happen even in 2000 when Brooks ran more because he hadn\'t had a training camp and didn\'t check down efficiently on all plays yet. The threat from the Saints is now and has been for several years from McAllister rushing or Brooks throwing, not from Brooks running with the ball. And frankly, he\'s a much better passer than he is a runner, anyway. I don\'t think he\'s nearly as fluid, fast, or natural a runner as most fans seem to think, and is better suited to sit in the pocket and use his accurate arm.

Danno · 07-19-2004, 04:36 PM

I\'ll throw Deuce a bone here, even though I\'m one of the few who think he has faltered down the stretch and could benefit from a slighly better training regime.

His FB (T-rex) and his back-up FB (Conwell) were both out for most of those games.
Our O-line was banged up and playing out of position for most of those games.
We played some really good run defenses.

Deuce is a warrior who gives it his all, but he also seems above criticism. On an 8-8 team nobody gets a free pass. He is our best weapon no doubt. But I do find it annoying that there appears to be a double standard when it comes to Brooks/McAllister critiques.

I think Deuce will start taking better care of his body, and will eventually become the best Saint RB of all time. But he needs to step it up every bit as much as Brooks does.

frankeefrank · 07-20-2004, 02:10 AM

There are a lot of ways to attack the Deuce Slo-Down argument.
Most have already been said.
But let\'s take a closer look at the final four games.

Week 14: vs. TB LOSS
Deuce 22 car. 69 yds. for some a decent output against the Bucs defense.
I don\'t think the TB defense was as good as year\'s in the past, but they were still tough in \'04.
Excuses: TB playing for pride and to stay alive in the Play-off hunt. Though it was a longshot you have to compile that with the fact we owened them 3 straight times. These two factors tell me they were amped to shut down Deuce, since he was a major factor in those wins.
Also, In my loose recolection of the game... We weer running away early. AB was on fire, then Joe Horn dropped that TD pass. From that point the team and season deflated.
Football is a game of hi\'s and lo\'s ... Momentum. In week 14, I say we lost momentum and couldn\'t recover. Not solely Deuce\'s problem

Week 15: Vs. NYG WIN
Deuce 15 car. 80 yds.
I was at the game Deuce playued well. But the Saints didn\'t need him that night. AB and Joe Horn owned the Giants secondary. But to be fair, I must point out the game\'s first TD was off a Deuce play fake.
When the offense works, it works and Deuce doesn\'t need to carry the load.

Week 16: at JAX LOSS
Deuce 21 car. 50 yds.
On paper I would agree this was poor outing. But since I have a Pro-Deuce slant I shall continue with excuses.
We threw the ball 38 times that day... The reason we couldn\'t run... Maybe O-line, maybe play calling. No first downs were gained on the ground that day. JAX controlled the line of scrimmage.
And we were behind. 17-10 at half, JAX had control...
Part of the fault lies in the Defense that day, they gave up 11 first downs rushing.
Deuce didn\'t help, fumbling 2 times, but...
Remember, Luck or not.... We should have been at least tied in that game. 20-20
CARNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wek 17: Vs. DAL WIN
Deuce 21 car. 49 yds.
Throw away game. It meant nothing and it showed, sloppy play on both sides.
Deuce didn\'t do anything.

No I know the one glaring faactor in all this is Deuce had no Td\'s down the stretch...
So he had 8 Td\'s in 12 games.
If there is one solution to see Deuce not fade my only advice is don\'t rely on him so much early in the season.
But that\'s not going to happen.

saintz08 · 07-20-2004, 02:55 AM

Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run.

Here is what the Texan scouting had to say :

When the Saints have the ballÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã‚Â¦
QB Aaron Brooks success depends upon the performance of RB Deuce McAllister. Brooks has proven that he canÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t carry the Saints\' offense by himself. The Texans will need to concentrate on stopping McAllister, forcing the inconsistent Brooks to win the game with his arm. He managed only 274 yards and 10 points in week 1 when he was forced to throw 47 times.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/preview/week02.html

Falcons :

\"Our focus was on stopping Deuce,\" said Atlanta linebacker Keith Brooking. \"He ran all over us in the last game. The offence is predicated on him, so we tried to stop him and make Brooks beat us. We did a pretty good job of hitting him and contained him pretty well until the overtime runs.\"

Brooks really scares no one in the league . In fact they play to dare him to try and beat their defenses .

Do not take my word for it , the opposition speak loudly and clearly enough ......

[Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08]

Puddinhead · 07-20-2004, 02:14 PM

Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run.

Here is what the Texan scouting had to say :

When the Saints have the ball…
QB Aaron Brooks success depends upon the performance of RB Deuce McAllister. Brooks has proven that he can’t carry the Saints\' offense by himself. The Texans will need to concentrate on stopping McAllister, forcing the inconsistent Brooks to win the game with his arm. He managed only 274 yards and 10 points in week 1 when he was forced to throw 47 times.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/preview/week02.html

Falcons :

\"Our focus was on stopping Deuce,\" said Atlanta linebacker Keith Brooking. \"He ran all over us in the last game. The offence is predicated on him, so we tried to stop him and make Brooks beat us. We did a pretty good job of hitting him and contained him pretty well until the overtime runs.\"

Brooks really scares no one in the league . In fact they play to dare him to try and beat their defenses .

Do not take my word for it , the opposition speak loudly and clearly enough ......

[Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08]

Hmmmmm....I\'m guessing if these were the Texan and Falcon scouting reports from before the first time their teams met the Saints this season, then it explains a lot as far as the records the two teams ended up with...LOL Brooks\' numbers after the Texans game and the first Falcon game: 41/57, 72%, 541 yds, 5 TD, 0 INT. Even if you throw in the second Atlanta game when McAllister was running wild, the numbers were 62/94, 66%, 769 yds, 5 TD, 2 INT. It might be instructive to focus more on how ineffective these two teams were at actually stopping Brooks rather than listening to their somewhat inaccurate self-assessments. LOL

saintz08 · 07-20-2004, 03:22 PM

Hmmmmm....I\'m guessing if these were the Texan and Falcon scouting reports from before the first time their teams met the Saints this season, then it explains a lot as far as the records the two teams ended up with...LOL Brooks\' numbers after the Texans game and the first Falcon game: 41/57, 72%, 541 yds, 5 TD, 0 INT. Even if you throw in the second Atlanta game when McAllister was running wild, the numbers were 62/94, 66%, 769 yds, 5 TD, 2 INT. It might be instructive to focus more on how ineffective these two teams were at actually stopping Brooks rather than listening to their somewhat inaccurate self-assessments. LOL

Like burning the Falcons secondary was any great challenge ....

Let\'s see who did it :

Carter - 268 yds - soon to be replaced
Ramsey - 356 yds - replaced
Johnson - 192 yds - soon to be replaced
Delhomme- 168 yds - 1st year starter
Ferrotte - 239 yds- back to the bench
Bulger - 352 yds - 1st year starter
Brooks - 352 yds
McNabb - 312 yds
Collins - 202 yds - replaced
Brooks - 228 yds - with the defense keying on Deuce .
Volek - 117 yds - back to the bench
Banks - 100 yds - back to the bench
Delhomme - 153 yds - 1st year starter
Manning - 290 yds
Johnson - 346 yds - soon to be replaced
Leftwich - 167 yds - 1st year starter ....

Looks like Saintfan with a blind squirrel front line could have thrown for 150 yards against the Falcons ....

[Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08]

Danno · 07-20-2004, 03:38 PM

saintz08]

So basically only 1 QB threw for more yards than Brooks did against the falcons. Ramsey by 4 yards.
Kinda looks to me the make-Brooks-beat-ya-plan failed miserably.
Hmmm...
Yup, I guess you have a point 08. Don\'t know what it is but i\'m sure you have one.

saintfan · 07-20-2004, 05:03 PM

Looks like Saintfan with a blind squirrel front line could have thrown for 150 yards against the Falcons ....

If Jake-e-poo can do it then so can I!

07-19-2004, 02:49 PM	#1
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102	Whose play dropped off at season's end? If you asked 10 Saints fans after the 2003 season, you'd probably get either 9 or 10 who would buy into the "national" perception that once again the Saints had swooned in December despite a 2-2 record in that month. If you took the question a little further and asked which player was most responsible for this, I'm guessing that at least 8 of the 10 would answer "Aaron Brooks...he always falters when it's most important." Why do you think these fans have that opinion? Last year, when unlike in 2002 Brooks wasn't playing with a ruptured tendon in his shoulder, he finished out the year with 200+ passes without an interception, and some of his best play of the season. In contrast, a player who we all think of as our steadiest and most reliable, Deuce McAllister, had a pretty rough ending to his year. As Pat Kirwin at NFL.com pointed out: Deuce McAllister is one of the better running backs in the NFL but down the stretch last year he managed only 248 yards rushing in 79 attempts with no touchdowns over the last four games. Did he run out of gas? He can't afford a fall off like that again in 2004. No one blames McAllister's lack of production down the stretch for the Saints' failure to make the playoffs again (and I don't think they should), and yet it seems hardly anyone has any qualms about laying that failure at the feet of Aaron Brooks, who actually played some of his best ball at the end of the season last year.
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102

07-19-2004, 03:20 PM	#2
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Whose play dropped off at season's end? No one blames McAllister\'s lack of production down the stretch for the Saints\' failure to make the playoffs again (and I don\'t think they should), and yet it seems hardly anyone has any qualms about laying that failure at the feet of Aaron Brooks, who actually played some of his best ball at the end of the season last year. Some may actually forget that defenses keyed on Mc Alister 100% of the time . No longer do opposing defenses spy for the once famous broken play running style of Brooks for 10 to 15 yards .The only question left to ask is \" Deuce left or Deuce right ?\"..
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

07-19-2004, 04:17 PM	#3
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102	Whose play dropped off at season's end? Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run. And that just didn\'t happen even in 2000 when Brooks ran more because he hadn\'t had a training camp and didn\'t check down efficiently on all plays yet. The threat from the Saints is now and has been for several years from McAllister rushing or Brooks throwing, not from Brooks running with the ball. And frankly, he\'s a much better passer than he is a runner, anyway. I don\'t think he\'s nearly as fluid, fast, or natural a runner as most fans seem to think, and is better suited to sit in the pocket and use his accurate arm.
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102

07-19-2004, 04:36 PM	#4
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Whose play dropped off at season's end? I\'ll throw Deuce a bone here, even though I\'m one of the few who think he has faltered down the stretch and could benefit from a slighly better training regime. His FB (T-rex) and his back-up FB (Conwell) were both out for most of those games. Our O-line was banged up and playing out of position for most of those games. We played some really good run defenses. Deuce is a warrior who gives it his all, but he also seems above criticism. On an 8-8 team nobody gets a free pass. He is our best weapon no doubt. But I do find it annoying that there appears to be a double standard when it comes to Brooks/McAllister critiques. I think Deuce will start taking better care of his body, and will eventually become the best Saint RB of all time. But he needs to step it up every bit as much as Brooks does.

07-20-2004, 02:10 AM	#5
frankeefrank 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 775	Whose play dropped off at season's end? There are a lot of ways to attack the Deuce Slo-Down argument. Most have already been said. But let\'s take a closer look at the final four games. Week 14: vs. TB LOSS Deuce 22 car. 69 yds. for some a decent output against the Bucs defense. I don\'t think the TB defense was as good as year\'s in the past, but they were still tough in \'04. Excuses: TB playing for pride and to stay alive in the Play-off hunt. Though it was a longshot you have to compile that with the fact we owened them 3 straight times. These two factors tell me they were amped to shut down Deuce, since he was a major factor in those wins. Also, In my loose recolection of the game... We weer running away early. AB was on fire, then Joe Horn dropped that TD pass. From that point the team and season deflated. Football is a game of hi\'s and lo\'s ... Momentum. In week 14, I say we lost momentum and couldn\'t recover. Not solely Deuce\'s problem Week 15: Vs. NYG WIN Deuce 15 car. 80 yds. I was at the game Deuce playued well. But the Saints didn\'t need him that night. AB and Joe Horn owned the Giants secondary. But to be fair, I must point out the game\'s first TD was off a Deuce play fake. When the offense works, it works and Deuce doesn\'t need to carry the load. Week 16: at JAX LOSS Deuce 21 car. 50 yds. On paper I would agree this was poor outing. But since I have a Pro-Deuce slant I shall continue with excuses. We threw the ball 38 times that day... The reason we couldn\'t run... Maybe O-line, maybe play calling. No first downs were gained on the ground that day. JAX controlled the line of scrimmage. And we were behind. 17-10 at half, JAX had control... Part of the fault lies in the Defense that day, they gave up 11 first downs rushing. Deuce didn\'t help, fumbling 2 times, but... Remember, Luck or not.... We should have been at least tied in that game. 20-20 CARNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wek 17: Vs. DAL WIN Deuce 21 car. 49 yds. Throw away game. It meant nothing and it showed, sloppy play on both sides. Deuce didn\'t do anything. No I know the one glaring faactor in all this is Deuce had no Td\'s down the stretch... So he had 8 Td\'s in 12 games. If there is one solution to see Deuce not fade my only advice is don\'t rely on him so much early in the season. But that\'s not going to happen.
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07-20-2004, 02:55 AM	#6
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Whose play dropped off at season's end? Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run. Here is what the Texan scouting had to say : When the Saints have the ballÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã‚Â¦ QB Aaron Brooks success depends upon the performance of RB Deuce McAllister. Brooks has proven that he canÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢t carry the Saints\' offense by himself. The Texans will need to concentrate on stopping McAllister, forcing the inconsistent Brooks to win the game with his arm. He managed only 274 yards and 10 points in week 1 when he was forced to throw 47 times. http://www.houstonprofootball.com/preview/week02.html Falcons : \"Our focus was on stopping Deuce,\" said Atlanta linebacker Keith Brooking. \"He ran all over us in the last game. The offence is predicated on him, so we tried to stop him and make Brooks beat us. We did a pretty good job of hitting him and contained him pretty well until the overtime runs.\" Brooks really scares no one in the league . In fact they play to dare him to try and beat their defenses . Do not take my word for it , the opposition speak loudly and clearly enough ...... [Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08]
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

07-20-2004, 02:14 PM	#7
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102	Whose play dropped off at season's end? Defenses NEVER used a \"spy\" technique against the Saints....and frankly, even if they did, it would actually do more to strengthen the rushing defense rather than to weaken it, as it would involve a LB reading \"run\" first, then, rather than dropping into coverage hanging at the line of scrimmage to watch for a QB run. Here is what the Texan scouting had to say : When the Saints have the ball… QB Aaron Brooks success depends upon the performance of RB Deuce McAllister. Brooks has proven that he can’t carry the Saints\' offense by himself. The Texans will need to concentrate on stopping McAllister, forcing the inconsistent Brooks to win the game with his arm. He managed only 274 yards and 10 points in week 1 when he was forced to throw 47 times. http://www.houstonprofootball.com/preview/week02.html Falcons : \"Our focus was on stopping Deuce,\" said Atlanta linebacker Keith Brooking. \"He ran all over us in the last game. The offence is predicated on him, so we tried to stop him and make Brooks beat us. We did a pretty good job of hitting him and contained him pretty well until the overtime runs.\" Brooks really scares no one in the league . In fact they play to dare him to try and beat their defenses . Do not take my word for it , the opposition speak loudly and clearly enough ...... [Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08] Hmmmmm....I\'m guessing if these were the Texan and Falcon scouting reports from before the first time their teams met the Saints this season, then it explains a lot as far as the records the two teams ended up with...LOL Brooks\' numbers after the Texans game and the first Falcon game: 41/57, 72%, 541 yds, 5 TD, 0 INT. Even if you throw in the second Atlanta game when McAllister was running wild, the numbers were 62/94, 66%, 769 yds, 5 TD, 2 INT. It might be instructive to focus more on how ineffective these two teams were at actually stopping Brooks rather than listening to their somewhat inaccurate self-assessments. LOL
Puddinhead 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 102

07-20-2004, 03:22 PM	#8
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Whose play dropped off at season's end? Hmmmmm....I\'m guessing if these were the Texan and Falcon scouting reports from before the first time their teams met the Saints this season, then it explains a lot as far as the records the two teams ended up with...LOL Brooks\' numbers after the Texans game and the first Falcon game: 41/57, 72%, 541 yds, 5 TD, 0 INT. Even if you throw in the second Atlanta game when McAllister was running wild, the numbers were 62/94, 66%, 769 yds, 5 TD, 2 INT. It might be instructive to focus more on how ineffective these two teams were at actually stopping Brooks rather than listening to their somewhat inaccurate self-assessments. LOL Like burning the Falcons secondary was any great challenge .... Let\'s see who did it : Carter - 268 yds - soon to be replaced Ramsey - 356 yds - replaced Johnson - 192 yds - soon to be replaced Delhomme- 168 yds - 1st year starter Ferrotte - 239 yds- back to the bench Bulger - 352 yds - 1st year starter Brooks - 352 yds McNabb - 312 yds Collins - 202 yds - replaced Brooks - 228 yds - with the defense keying on Deuce . Volek - 117 yds - back to the bench Banks - 100 yds - back to the bench Delhomme - 153 yds - 1st year starter Manning - 290 yds Johnson - 346 yds - soon to be replaced Leftwich - 167 yds - 1st year starter .... Looks like Saintfan with a blind squirrel front line could have thrown for 150 yards against the Falcons .... [Edited on 20/7/2004 by saintz08]
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

07-20-2004, 03:38 PM	#9
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Whose play dropped off at season's end? saintz08] So basically only 1 QB threw for more yards than Brooks did against the falcons. Ramsey by 4 yards. Kinda looks to me the make-Brooks-beat-ya-plan failed miserably. Hmmm... Yup, I guess you have a point 08. Don\'t know what it is but i\'m sure you have one.

07-20-2004, 05:03 PM	#10
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Whose play dropped off at season's end? Looks like Saintfan with a blind squirrel front line could have thrown for 150 yards against the Falcons .... If Jake-e-poo can do it then so can I!