Whose job is it to scout D personnel?

dizzle88 · 10-29-2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

If it was Mickey Loomis who was really the one picking all the players all by himself, without input from the coaches, in a vacuum, then the Haslett teams would have been better than they were, and/or the Super Bowl and 13-3 teams would have been more average/mediocre like the 8-8 Haslett teams. If Loomis was really that bad, if he were really so incompetent, then the current Saints under both Haslett and Payton would be worse than their record during Randy Mueller era.

The way it REALLY works is that Sean Payton, Steve Spagnuolo, Mickey Loomis and the coaching and scouting staff all sit around with lists of names on pieces of paper, and discuss them and arrive at consensus on what they want. The scouting on D is way too inconsistent, but look who is the head coach, look at his background, where do you think his mind is at most of the time, in these scouting meetings? It's a real weakness the team has, but it's not Loomis.

Mickey Loomis is responsible for all football operations, coaching, player personnel and scouting, salary cap management, contract negotiations, athletic training, equipment, video and communications. He has over 25 years in the NFL so to say he is not a "football guy" is pretty absurd.

No matter how much people want it, we will never see a Saints team with this offense and a dominant Dome Patrol style defense, AT THE SAME TIME. It just won't happen.

Funny thing is, all we need is an average D and we would make the Super Bowl

Instead we have the worst defense since 1950

BIGEASY504 · 10-29-2012, 09:06 AM

As soon as the bounty broke the Saints hands were tied. Free agent players didn’t know whether to come to the Saints after hearing the coaches will be gone for the entire season, left us with no upgrades in terms of free agents and not replacements (Nicks/Grubbs) type players. With Brees in a contract holdout he could not have done what he did lat year, that holdout cost us in timing.

Speedy Ron · 10-29-2012, 09:49 AM

On offense, payton was good enough to coach up slap d!(ks. Defense is a little different. either you have it or you dont. our guys just dont

TheOak · 10-29-2012, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Funny thing is, all we need is an average D and we would make the Super Bowl

Instead we have the worst defense since 1950

Average? LOL

Fk Dizzle we won the SB with the 25th ranked defense lol...
I think at 31st we would be 5-2

Haps Biggest Fan · 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

If it was Mickey Loomis who was really the one picking all the players all by himself, without input from the coaches, in a vacuum, then the Haslett teams would have been better than they were, and/or the Super Bowl and 13-3 teams would have been more average/mediocre like the 8-8 Haslett teams. If Loomis was really that bad, if he were really so incompetent, then the current Saints under both Haslett and Payton would be worse than their record during Randy Mueller era.

The way it REALLY works is that Sean Payton, Steve Spagnuolo, Mickey Loomis and the coaching and scouting staff all sit around with lists of names on pieces of paper, and discuss them and arrive at consensus on what they want. The scouting on D is way too inconsistent, but look who is the head coach, look at his background, where do you think his mind is at most of the time, in these scouting meetings? It's a real weakness the team has, but it's not Loomis.

Mickey Loomis is responsible for all football operations, coaching, player personnel and scouting, salary cap management, contract negotiations, athletic training, equipment, video and communications. He has over 25 years in the NFL so to say he is not a "football guy" is pretty absurd.

No matter how much people want it, we will never see a Saints team with this offense and a dominant Dome Patrol style defense, AT THE SAME TIME. It just won't happen.

I appreciate this post. Thanks.

Spags hasn't finished his first year, so, I'm not sure whether he's to blame for this horrible roster on D. That leaves Coach Payton ( an offense guy), and Loomis ( a businessman, accountant, but, not an expert on talent eval).

The Saints need to improve the Front Office. When I say a "football guy" is needed, I mean that the Saints need a guy who is not only a talented scout, but, who can supervise the scouts who are his subordinates.

The Saints D roster has been declining for years, despite the fact that money WAS spent for this roster. SOMEBODY or SOMETHING is responsible for the failure. If the cause of the problem can't be identified, then, this problem won't be solved. The problem has been festering for years, and, it looks to fester for more years.

Some people say that Spags is the problem -- Spags -- they guy who hasn't finished his first year here. That doesn't compute. Let's take a harder look at the people who have been here longer and had more input in building this "roster" on D.

This may well turn out the be the worst Defense in the HISTORY of the National Football League. Fans have a right to be angry and to demand answers.

TheOak · 10-29-2012, 12:45 PM

Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull...

Player Personnel
Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting
Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting
Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting
Terry Fontenot Pro Scout
Ryan Powell Pro Scout
Mike Baugh Area Scout
Dwaune Jones Area Scout
Josh Lucas Area Scout
Jim Monos Area Scout
Terry Wooden Area Scout
Ryan Hollern Combine Scout
Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism?
Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator
Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant
Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant

New Orleans Saints | Staff

Shoe. · 10-29-2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by BIGEASY504

As soon as the bounty broke the Saints hands were tied. Free agent players didn’t know whether to come to the Saints after hearing the coaches will be gone for the entire season, left us with no upgrades in terms of free agents and not replacements (Nicks/Grubbs) type players. With Brees in a contract holdout he could not have done what he did lat year, that holdout cost us in timing.

Not entirely sure I can agree here.

We signed Curtis Lofton, Broderick Bunkley, David Hawthorne, and Chris Chamberlain this off-season to shore up our defense. Lofton is making as much of a difference as he can, Bunkley hasn't been bad, and the other two are hurt, so its not like we weren't attracting some talent.

But when people who have been doing something their whole lives can't figure out who to cover in a freaking zone scheme you gotta wonder who's asleep at the wheel. Sounds like we should've been hoping for Mike Nolan instead of Spags after all...

Rugby Saint II · 10-29-2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull...

Player Personnel
Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting
Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting
Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting
Terry Fontenot Pro Scout
Ryan Powell Pro Scout
Mike Baugh Area Scout
Dwaune Jones Area Scout
Josh Lucas Area Scout
Jim Monos Area Scout
Terry Wooden Area Scout
Ryan Hollern Combine Scout
Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism?
Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator
Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant
Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant

New Orleans Saints | Staff

I'm laying it squarely at the feet of Rick Reiprish.

Ashley · 10-29-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull...

Player Personnel
Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting
Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting
Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting
Terry Fontenot Pro Scout
Ryan Powell Pro Scout
Mike Baugh Area Scout
Dwaune Jones Area Scout
Josh Lucas Area Scout
Jim Monos Area Scout
Terry Wooden Area Scout
Ryan Hollern Combine Scout
Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism?
Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator
Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant
Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant

New Orleans Saints | Staff

Over half of that staff needs to go then

SaintsBro · 10-29-2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Haps Biggest Fan

The Saints D roster has been declining for years, despite the fact that money WAS spent for this roster. SOMEBODY or SOMETHING is responsible for the failure. If the cause of the problem can't be identified, then, this problem won't be solved. The problem has been festering for years, and, it looks to fester for more years.

Some people say that Spags is the problem -- Spags -- they guy who hasn't finished his first year here. That doesn't compute. Let's take a harder look at the people who have been here longer and had more input in building this "roster" on D.

This may well turn out the be the worst Defense in the HISTORY of the National Football League. Fans have a right to be angry and to demand answers.

Well this is my own personal take on how we have arrived at the Most Horrible Defense In History...

I’m no expert. AT ALL. But when Gregg Williams first came here, I did some research on him, to try and see what he was gonna bring us. Because I was so tired of the defense losing games, after 2008! I went out and read and searched a lot of articles from the local sports writers in different places, about previous Williams teams, Washington and Buffalo, and about the Titans team he took to the Super Bowl, to try and learn more about the Gregg Williams D.

He was known for this. It was very specific. His defenses had a kind of a formula to them.

1) good to really good corners & secondary -- this was a big part of his emphasis. Remember how freaking lockdown good we used to be, LOL? In Washington Williams had that guy SEan Taylor who died, but who was really good. The Titans Super Bowl team was a really good secondary, too, with a couple of Pro Bowlers..
2) Williams would then have ONE playmaker/anchor type "star" linebacker, who in our case was Jonathan Vilma, surrounded by a cast of faceless "nobody" linebackers. That's exactly how his other defenses worked. and how it was here. Shanle! I forget the cat’s name but in Washington he had the same deal, a veteran linebacker to “anchor” the defense and be a leader.
3) then Williams would have 1 or sometimes 2 guys on the line who were playmakers, and just kind of physical, badass in-your-face guys. Jevon Kearse was one of those, AFC Defensive Player of the Year in 1999.
And then Williams would have other guys in the line who were like hatchet guys, or goons, just go after the QB and take off his head. Sound familiar? We had it with Hargrove and McCray and Remi. Kind of random WHO ARE THESE GUYS type of players.

I don't know all their names,but Gregg Williams did this same model with the other defenses of his.

So part of the reason why Williams was a GOOD fit here, is because his coaching "philosophy" really does work with, low talent, journeyman, or kinda low budget players being supported by your handful of key really good or great players. The idea was that the stars would anchor the thing, (Greer/Porter/Sharper/Harper in back, Vilma, I dunno, maybe we can say Will Smith was good on the line back then?) and the decent players could play the scheme, and it would WORK, at least most of the time. When it didn't work, it was usually spectacular failure in the running game -- remember all those 80 and 90 yard touchdown runs, usually once per game somebody would rip one off, because somebody didn't do their exact specific job, and the whole thing broke down. Usually because Vilma was held, LOL.

The other thing that Gregg Williams did a lot of, was tinkering. You’re here now, then you're gone, out the door, never to be heard of again. I like you, no I don’t. But again, it was a good fit with Payton as head coach, because Payton kind of has ADD like that, about the offense. Short fuse. If you haven’t made a big play for me in the last 20 minutes, I don’t remember who you are, get out of here.

So NOW, fast forward, and Gregg Williams has left...we have been cobbling together this defense of really sort of No-Name guys, ON PURPOSE, because that's how it was meant to be built. And now we're missing some of the key anchors too. This was actually a big part of Gregg Williams’ demise in Washington, EXACTLY. The story was that as Gregg Williams went on there, certain key guys would leave or be run off, or retire, and then they’d be replaced by lesser guys, and it didn’t work out.

Then you have Vilma hurt....Lofton is tackling people. The rest of them? It's TURRIBLE.

I can’t speak to the so-called “Spags system” because I didn’t research it out; I don’t really see much of a system out there, just a bunch of headless chickens.

So we have a big honking mess. We have guys who have not developed, we have guys who have regressed and gotten WORSE, we have marginal guys like Fujita who leave and then suddenly the whole thing LOOKS LIKE it craps out, but it sorta doesn’t . But I'm not sure it's a thing you can put at one doorstep and lay it down there and say 'THAT'S THE PROBLEM.'

10-29-2012, 08:50 AM	#11
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,358	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by SaintsBro If it was Mickey Loomis who was really the one picking all the players all by himself, without input from the coaches, in a vacuum, then the Haslett teams would have been better than they were, and/or the Super Bowl and 13-3 teams would have been more average/mediocre like the 8-8 Haslett teams. If Loomis was really that bad, if he were really so incompetent, then the current Saints under both Haslett and Payton would be worse than their record during Randy Mueller era. The way it REALLY works is that Sean Payton, Steve Spagnuolo, Mickey Loomis and the coaching and scouting staff all sit around with lists of names on pieces of paper, and discuss them and arrive at consensus on what they want. The scouting on D is way too inconsistent, but look who is the head coach, look at his background, where do you think his mind is at most of the time, in these scouting meetings? It's a real weakness the team has, but it's not Loomis. Mickey Loomis is responsible for all football operations, coaching, player personnel and scouting, salary cap management, contract negotiations, athletic training, equipment, video and communications. He has over 25 years in the NFL so to say he is not a "football guy" is pretty absurd. No matter how much people want it, we will never see a Saints team with this offense and a dominant Dome Patrol style defense, AT THE SAME TIME. It just won't happen. Funny thing is, all we need is an average D and we would make the Super Bowl Instead we have the worst defense since 1950 TheOak likes this.

10-29-2012, 09:06 AM	#12
BIGEASY504 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 487	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? As soon as the bounty broke the Saints hands were tied. Free agent players didn’t know whether to come to the Saints after hearing the coaches will be gone for the entire season, left us with no upgrades in terms of free agents and not replacements (Nicks/Grubbs) type players. With Brees in a contract holdout he could not have done what he did lat year, that holdout cost us in timing.
BIGEASY504 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 487

10-29-2012, 09:49 AM	#13
Speedy Ron I'm an A hole Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Metry Posts: 1,173	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? On offense, payton was good enough to coach up slap d!(ks. Defense is a little different. either you have it or you dont. our guys just dont

10-29-2012, 10:02 AM	#14
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by dizzle88 Funny thing is, all we need is an average D and we would make the Super Bowl Instead we have the worst defense since 1950 Average? LOL Fk Dizzle we won the SB with the 25th ranked defense lol... I think at 31st we would be 5-2 SaintsBro likes this.

10-29-2012, 12:23 PM	#15
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by SaintsBro If it was Mickey Loomis who was really the one picking all the players all by himself, without input from the coaches, in a vacuum, then the Haslett teams would have been better than they were, and/or the Super Bowl and 13-3 teams would have been more average/mediocre like the 8-8 Haslett teams. If Loomis was really that bad, if he were really so incompetent, then the current Saints under both Haslett and Payton would be worse than their record during Randy Mueller era. The way it REALLY works is that Sean Payton, Steve Spagnuolo, Mickey Loomis and the coaching and scouting staff all sit around with lists of names on pieces of paper, and discuss them and arrive at consensus on what they want. The scouting on D is way too inconsistent, but look who is the head coach, look at his background, where do you think his mind is at most of the time, in these scouting meetings? It's a real weakness the team has, but it's not Loomis. Mickey Loomis is responsible for all football operations, coaching, player personnel and scouting, salary cap management, contract negotiations, athletic training, equipment, video and communications. He has over 25 years in the NFL so to say he is not a "football guy" is pretty absurd. No matter how much people want it, we will never see a Saints team with this offense and a dominant Dome Patrol style defense, AT THE SAME TIME. It just won't happen. I appreciate this post. Thanks. Spags hasn't finished his first year, so, I'm not sure whether he's to blame for this horrible roster on D. That leaves Coach Payton ( an offense guy), and Loomis ( a businessman, accountant, but, not an expert on talent eval). The Saints need to improve the Front Office. When I say a "football guy" is needed, I mean that the Saints need a guy who is not only a talented scout, but, who can supervise the scouts who are his subordinates. The Saints D roster has been declining for years, despite the fact that money WAS spent for this roster. SOMEBODY or SOMETHING is responsible for the failure. If the cause of the problem can't be identified, then, this problem won't be solved. The problem has been festering for years, and, it looks to fester for more years. Some people say that Spags is the problem -- Spags -- they guy who hasn't finished his first year here. That doesn't compute. Let's take a harder look at the people who have been here longer and had more input in building this "roster" on D. This may well turn out the be the worst Defense in the HISTORY of the National Football League. Fans have a right to be angry and to demand answers.
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10-29-2012, 12:45 PM	#16
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull... Player Personnel Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting Terry Fontenot Pro Scout Ryan Powell Pro Scout Mike Baugh Area Scout Dwaune Jones Area Scout Josh Lucas Area Scout Jim Monos Area Scout Terry Wooden Area Scout Ryan Hollern Combine Scout Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism? Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant New Orleans Saints \| Staff Rugby Saint II likes this.

10-29-2012, 01:04 PM	#17
Shoe. 500th Post Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hub City Posts: 576	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by BIGEASY504 As soon as the bounty broke the Saints hands were tied. Free agent players didn’t know whether to come to the Saints after hearing the coaches will be gone for the entire season, left us with no upgrades in terms of free agents and not replacements (Nicks/Grubbs) type players. With Brees in a contract holdout he could not have done what he did lat year, that holdout cost us in timing. Not entirely sure I can agree here. We signed Curtis Lofton, Broderick Bunkley, David Hawthorne, and Chris Chamberlain this off-season to shore up our defense. Lofton is making as much of a difference as he can, Bunkley hasn't been bad, and the other two are hurt, so its not like we weren't attracting some talent. But when people who have been doing something their whole lives can't figure out who to cover in a freaking zone scheme you gotta wonder who's asleep at the wheel. Sounds like we should've been hoping for Mike Nolan instead of Spags after all...

10-29-2012, 01:38 PM	#18
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,073	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by x626xBlack Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull... Player Personnel Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting Terry Fontenot Pro Scout Ryan Powell Pro Scout Mike Baugh Area Scout Dwaune Jones Area Scout Josh Lucas Area Scout Jim Monos Area Scout Terry Wooden Area Scout Ryan Hollern Combine Scout Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism? Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant New Orleans Saints \| Staff I'm laying it squarely at the feet of Rick Reiprish. Danno likes this.

10-29-2012, 01:48 PM	#19
Ashley Site Donor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Co Posts: 2,760	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by x626xBlack Here ya go: Pick one or a handfull... Player Personnel Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting Terry Fontenot Pro Scout Ryan Powell Pro Scout Mike Baugh Area Scout Dwaune Jones Area Scout Josh Lucas Area Scout Jim Monos Area Scout Terry Wooden Area Scout Ryan Hollern Combine Scout Joey Vitt, Jr. Combine Scout <--- nepotism? Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator Matt Manocherian Scouting Assistant Michael Parenton Scouting Assistant New Orleans Saints \| Staff Over half of that staff needs to go then

10-29-2012, 02:49 PM	#20
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Whose job is it to scout D personnel? Originally Posted by Haps Biggest Fan The Saints D roster has been declining for years, despite the fact that money WAS spent for this roster. SOMEBODY or SOMETHING is responsible for the failure. If the cause of the problem can't be identified, then, this problem won't be solved. The problem has been festering for years, and, it looks to fester for more years. Some people say that Spags is the problem -- Spags -- they guy who hasn't finished his first year here. That doesn't compute. Let's take a harder look at the people who have been here longer and had more input in building this "roster" on D. This may well turn out the be the worst Defense in the HISTORY of the National Football League. Fans have a right to be angry and to demand answers. Well this is my own personal take on how we have arrived at the Most Horrible Defense In History... I’m no expert. AT ALL. But when Gregg Williams first came here, I did some research on him, to try and see what he was gonna bring us. Because I was so tired of the defense losing games, after 2008! I went out and read and searched a lot of articles from the local sports writers in different places, about previous Williams teams, Washington and Buffalo, and about the Titans team he took to the Super Bowl, to try and learn more about the Gregg Williams D. He was known for this. It was very specific. His defenses had a kind of a formula to them. 1) good to really good corners & secondary -- this was a big part of his emphasis. Remember how freaking lockdown good we used to be, LOL? In Washington Williams had that guy SEan Taylor who died, but who was really good. The Titans Super Bowl team was a really good secondary, too, with a couple of Pro Bowlers.. 2) Williams would then have ONE playmaker/anchor type "star" linebacker, who in our case was Jonathan Vilma, surrounded by a cast of faceless "nobody" linebackers. That's exactly how his other defenses worked. and how it was here. Shanle! I forget the cat’s name but in Washington he had the same deal, a veteran linebacker to “anchor” the defense and be a leader. 3) then Williams would have 1 or sometimes 2 guys on the line who were playmakers, and just kind of physical, badass in-your-face guys. Jevon Kearse was one of those, AFC Defensive Player of the Year in 1999. And then Williams would have other guys in the line who were like hatchet guys, or goons, just go after the QB and take off his head. Sound familiar? We had it with Hargrove and McCray and Remi. Kind of random WHO ARE THESE GUYS type of players. I don't know all their names,but Gregg Williams did this same model with the other defenses of his. So part of the reason why Williams was a GOOD fit here, is because his coaching "philosophy" really does work with, low talent, journeyman, or kinda low budget players being supported by your handful of key really good or great players. The idea was that the stars would anchor the thing, (Greer/Porter/Sharper/Harper in back, Vilma, I dunno, maybe we can say Will Smith was good on the line back then?) and the decent players could play the scheme, and it would WORK, at least most of the time. When it didn't work, it was usually spectacular failure in the running game -- remember all those 80 and 90 yard touchdown runs, usually once per game somebody would rip one off, because somebody didn't do their exact specific job, and the whole thing broke down. Usually because Vilma was held, LOL. The other thing that Gregg Williams did a lot of, was tinkering. You’re here now, then you're gone, out the door, never to be heard of again. I like you, no I don’t. But again, it was a good fit with Payton as head coach, because Payton kind of has ADD like that, about the offense. Short fuse. If you haven’t made a big play for me in the last 20 minutes, I don’t remember who you are, get out of here. So NOW, fast forward, and Gregg Williams has left...we have been cobbling together this defense of really sort of No-Name guys, ON PURPOSE, because that's how it was meant to be built. And now we're missing some of the key anchors too. This was actually a big part of Gregg Williams’ demise in Washington, EXACTLY. The story was that as Gregg Williams went on there, certain key guys would leave or be run off, or retire, and then they’d be replaced by lesser guys, and it didn’t work out. Then you have Vilma hurt....Lofton is tackling people. The rest of them? It's TURRIBLE. I can’t speak to the so-called “Spags system” because I didn’t research it out; I don’t really see much of a system out there, just a bunch of headless chickens. So we have a big honking mess. We have guys who have not developed, we have guys who have regressed and gotten WORSE, we have marginal guys like Fujita who leave and then suddenly the whole thing LOOKS LIKE it craps out, but it sorta doesn’t . But I'm not sure it's a thing you can put at one doorstep and lay it down there and say 'THAT'S THE PROBLEM.'

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