Problems with Defensive Tackles

TreyThomas · 01-03-2013, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Great post. Agree with virtually all of it.

There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE).

Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though.

Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position.

Lofton (104th MLB),
Vilma (100th OLB),
Ellis (118th DT),
Hawthorne (102nd OLB),
Greer (118th CB),
Robinson (193rd CB),
Harper (167th S),
Jenkins (168th S)

I put that directly on Spags.

I agree with this. I would have never thought Lofton would be ranked 104th. I do know that Harper and Jenkins graded out as the two absolute worst safeties in the league. In no way am I saying this is all their fault and they are the problem, but numbers are hard to argue with, and that is disheartening.

Utah_Saint · 01-04-2013, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Great post. Agree with virtually all of it.

There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE).

Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though.

Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position.

Lofton (104th MLB),
Vilma (100th OLB),
Ellis (118th DT),
Hawthorne (102nd OLB),
Greer (118th CB),
Robinson (193rd CB),
Harper (167th S),
Jenkins (168th S)

I put that directly on Spags.

193rd!! Wow, Robinson wouldn't make it as the 6th cornerback on the "average" team in the NFL.

|Mitch| · 01-03-2013, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by jcp026

Nice post. What site do you find these grades on?

Originally Posted by TreyThomas

https://www.profootballfocus.com/

this one...

AllSaints · 01-02-2013, 08:13 PM

Hicks will become a Dogggg !!!! But we need another guy that can stuff up the middle n give our linebackers a chance to make a play.. ! ! !

burningmetal · 01-03-2013, 03:17 AM

I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system.

If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.

Crusader · 01-03-2013, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system.

If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.

A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence.

My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done.

About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.

|Mitch| · 01-03-2013, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

About or DT, I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.

So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...

dizzle88 · 01-03-2013, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...

DE and OLB are major needs, plenty of them in first round

Crusader · 01-03-2013, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...

I would rather se us picking an OT, DE or S early. I just thing its easier to find an underrated DT that can play early than an RT or a DE that will make an impact in his first year.

burningmetal · 01-03-2013, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence.

My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done.

About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.

Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless.

In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure.

DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful.

If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.

01-03-2013, 06:02 PM	#1
TreyThomas Registered Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 82	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by Danno Great post. Agree with virtually all of it. There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE). Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though. Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position. Lofton (104th MLB), Vilma (100th OLB), Ellis (118th DT), Hawthorne (102nd OLB), Greer (118th CB), Robinson (193rd CB), Harper (167th S), Jenkins (168th S) I put that directly on Spags. I agree with this. I would have never thought Lofton would be ranked 104th. I do know that Harper and Jenkins graded out as the two absolute worst safeties in the league. In no way am I saying this is all their fault and they are the problem, but numbers are hard to argue with, and that is disheartening.
TreyThomas Registered Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 82

01-04-2013, 03:12 PM	#2
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by Danno Great post. Agree with virtually all of it. There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE). Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though. Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position. Lofton (104th MLB), Vilma (100th OLB), Ellis (118th DT), Hawthorne (102nd OLB), Greer (118th CB), Robinson (193rd CB), Harper (167th S), Jenkins (168th S) I put that directly on Spags. 193rd!! Wow, Robinson wouldn't make it as the 6th cornerback on the "average" team in the NFL.

01-03-2013, 09:29 AM	#3
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by jcp026 Nice post. What site do you find these grades on? Originally Posted by TreyThomas https://www.profootballfocus.com/ this one...

01-02-2013, 08:13 PM	#4
AllSaints Breakin Records Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Deville, Louisiana Posts: 2,167	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Hicks will become a Dogggg !!!! But we need another guy that can stuff up the middle n give our linebackers a chance to make a play.. ! ! !

01-03-2013, 03:17 AM	#5
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system. If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

01-03-2013, 04:00 AM	#6
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,044	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by burningmetal I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system. If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme. A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence. My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done. About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.
	W.T. Sherman is my favorite General. After all he did order Atlanta to be burned to the ground.

01-03-2013, 07:55 AM	#7
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by Crusader About or DT, I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round. So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...

01-03-2013, 07:59 AM	#8
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,534	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious... DE and OLB are major needs, plenty of them in first round Danno likes this.

01-03-2013, 08:06 AM	#9
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,044	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious... I would rather se us picking an OT, DE or S early. I just thing its easier to find an underrated DT that can play early than an RT or a DE that will make an impact in his first year.

01-03-2013, 08:04 AM	#10
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles Originally Posted by Crusader A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence. My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done. About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round. Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless. In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure. DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful. If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

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