I have a riddle for you
 

If I throw the phrases: "new coach", "new scheme", "wrong personnel", "staying with it for too long"...


Which Saints group am I talking about, the 2012 defense or the 2013 offensive line?

Answer ~ Both!

The thread about "what did greenbay do..." made me think about something.

When you look up zone blocking on the internet the first thing it says is "In a zone blocking scheme, fleet-footedness and athletic ability trump size as desirable qualities in offensive linemen." Then I look at Brown and both knees in braces, Strieff, DLP, Evans hamstring and back slow him down... I do not see fleet-footed anywhere in that group.

Our offensive line is suffering from the same exact thing our defense suffered from last year. Personnel and scheme do not match.

Ive seen this same question asked a whole lot also "how can our offensive line get so bad in one year"? Easy.... Implement a scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

I will narrow it a little further. What aspect does our offensive line suffer the most in? Run Blocking. Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme and not a pass blocking scheme... We are still ok at pass blocking when we are not injured.

We are not built like this describes:

Therefore we can not do what this describes:
Football 201: Understanding the Zone Blocking Scheme - Behind the Steel Curtain


The only question that remains for me: How long will we continue to try and do what we are not built to do?

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

couldn't agree more.

Is it even viable to change our scheme mid-season though?

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

We better.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Some of it is scheme. The rest of it is injury and lack of talent being exposed. Offensive lines get studied by opponents just as any other position. Over the years we've done a lot of patch work strategies to cover up the lack of talent, but those tactics are starting to dry out.

Evans is a real talent, but is not fully healthy. After him, there is not a single starter on that line who is really a legitimate NFL lineman. Armstead fits this scheme with his agility, but (apparently) he isn't ready technique-wise.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Well considering this same unit ran gap for their entire careers here, it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Also: We don't exclusively run zone, we just run a lot more of it than we ever did.

We weren't all that damn good at gap either, but a lot better than the clusterfark we're seeing now.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

You just lost every ounce of credibility you had with that statement. That statement is ridiculous.

C'mon man, you can do better than that crap. I've seen it.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Which would you chose?

1. Continue the way we are.
2. Use last years scheme since we have last years personnel except for Brown.
3. Pay for a cancerous abscess in your groin?


Thanks Xan, that will be an option on all Polls from now on.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

....so,your saying its not Ingrams fault?

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Well that wasn't nice Danno Incognito :)

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Now thats funny right there, I dont care who you are!

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Don't lump me in with that racist POS, thats totally uncalled for, not to mention about as off base as you can get. I may be a lot of things but I'm not a goddam racist.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

And you can too.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

It was sarcasm. But okay. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Thanks Adolph.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I think we drafted Terron Armstead as a perfecr piece for Zone Blocking. Also high hopes that Jason Smith's career could be rejuvanted in New Orleans, which it was not. I think that if we still had Carl Nicks, Terron was healthy and a couple other pieces it would work but not now

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Saying we don't have an NFL starter is ridiculous. Grubbs is a multiple-time Pro Bowler, Strief is considered by most of the scouting/grading servcies as a top right tackle and the same for DLP at center. There is nothing wrong with this starting 5.

The real problem is, we pass the ball way too much. You're not going to be effective at run blocking unless you're actually doing it on a regular basis, and not running the ball means the other guys can line up and rush your face off because they know you're passing. Even if it's not effective, we need to run the ball a lot more than 13 times a game. Payton's playcalling this year reminds me of 2007 and 2008 and everybody was getting fed up with him then.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

OK guys calm down. We all have opinions and they all differ. We are all upset about the turn that our team has taken and are lashing out.
But remember, we are a family here.......a Saints family, but a family none the less. :p

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I secretly thought that they were gonna fix it over the bye, after the slightly stronger showing of the run game in New England. If they were gonna tear up the playbook and make the big switch, that would have been the time to do it.

I'm not so sure they can just flip a switch and go back to their old scheme in a single week, anyway. That's gonna be extremely messy, and for a team that's already way sloppier than normal, look out....

I will say this, I hardly ever criticize Payton, but this switch to zone blocking is the one solitary idea of his that I have really *not* bought into, ever since he first brought it up. From the very beginning, it felt to me like tinkering, change for the sake of change, or fixing what wasn't really broke in the first place. Unless there was something to it that I couldn't see, I never understood the reasoning for making the switch. Maybe he was watching a lot of the Texans during his year off, or all those practices we had with them, or something.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I was just joking. Sorry, I guess I'm Exile Incognito. :(

http://catriot.com/wp-content/upload...7/sadcat1.jpeg

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I would like to see it change... think we all would

I wouldn't mind option 3 however... sounds exciting

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Danno I'm laughing my ass off!

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

That's baloney! There is nothing wrong with the talent on the OLine. Last season they used gap blocking and they did just fine. The Saints had the same guards and center. If you want to say the scheme doesn't fit the personnel then you are right. But to say the OLine has no talent is ridiculous.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Agreed...O-line blocking scheme doesn't fit the personnel. It's illegal. And also, let's not forget--let's not forget, dude, that keeping wildlife, um, an amphibious rodent for, um, you know, domestic--within the city--that ain't legal either.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Sarcasm aside, he was absolutely right.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Some of you guys get your panties knotted over reeeeaaaally silly things. You're grown ass men, or women, act like it. Sick of getting on here and seeing this one arguing with that one over stuff that neither has ANY control over. Disagreeing is one thing, but some of you resort to name calling and attacking the other guy's character entirely too quick. I did that once on here, then promptly apologized both publicly and privately. I'll bet that most of you wouldn't be so quick to act like a jackass if you didn't have the vastness of cyberspace as your shield... Grow up, cut the crap and quit ruining my favorite place to come for Saints info.. and don't tell me "well don't read it then" because it's almost unavoidable. What used to be confined to the political and smack talk forums has spilled out all over this site, and frankly it makes me want to vomit.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Preach it, frydaddy. It's easy to let things get out of hand when it ain't face-to-face. Also, sarcasm is even harder to decode on here.

This thread had so much promise. Oak's analysis was freakin' awesome and there was some time, thought and research put into it.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Agreed on all points barry.

And I should apologize. I realize that some of what I said is not much better than what I'm griping about.. and I also don't mean to sound like a crybaby. It's just that I've been coming here for about 7 or 8 years now and it only seems to have gotten worse

Anyway.. Sorry Oak, wasn't trying to threadjack you. Back on topic now - I know it probably is much easier said than done, but I would rather see them go back to something similar to their previous scheme. Different O line coach, so I wouldn't expect it to be a seamless transition back to the old way. Just.. I dunno, maybe try playing to their strengths for cripes sake!

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

In fairness, I forgot about Ben Grubbs... perhaps because he hasn't lived up to expectations. But aside from that, sorry to disappoint you man, but I stand by my statement.

These guys were good college lineman, but simply do not possess NFL starting ability. DLP seemed to do alright last year, but I can only assume there is a reason why he was cut from so many teams before. Like many people, I thought that the Saints had somehow turned the light on with him, but this year his play along with the others has dropped off dramatically.

But because the Saints don't believe in investing in real offensive tackles, we are left with total crap on the edges, and not much better at center.

All one need do is watch the try to run, or watch Brees run for his life to know that what I'm saying should be common knowledge.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Again, I inadvertently omitted Grubbs. The other three are just not that good. Brown has been a disaster since they drafted him. DLP is just a plugin, and not really a true starter. I would say he's done an admirable job considering his long journey from obscurity, but that doesn't make up for the lack of holes up the middle. And Strief is like Bushrod was. He is half decent, but not nearly good enough considering he plays on the less demanding right side.

You can disagree with me if you want. I don't care either way. I'm sensing a lot of butt hurt lately and it leaves me to wonder why this forum exists.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

See my posts directly above for my reply... The only thing I will add specific to your post is that I don't know who in the world is saying Strief and DLP are top players at their positions, but I haven't heard anything close to that. And I would say that any man who calls himself an expert and still says that about those players, is clearly not qualified to give grades. I think DLP is a guy who's good to have on the roster, but as a starter he is not impressing me right now.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

It's going to be nice to have enough producers at productive positions to focus intently on some O-Line drafting and horse-trading in the spring, though.

We've got the offensive talent, it just seems out-of-sync.


Alaska

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

So did we relaxe Aaron kromer with the new spags of the OLine?

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Not sure I understand your questatement..

Kromer was replaced by Bret Ingalls who was our RB coach since 2009. Dan Roushar took over the RB job and was previously the OC at Michigan State.

So it would seem we replaced Aaron Kromer with a coach that has never coached an O-Line before and tasked him with implementing a new scheme. He was a Full back when he played and has held duties as OC at the college level but never an o-line coach.

Jut doesn't sound like a sound decision to me... You do one or the other but not both in the same year. New inexperienced o-line coach... fine. new Scheme with an experienced line coach.. fine.. Trying both at once... Not something i would do at this level.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I am hoping they save the surprise for a game that counts.

When you've played a blocking scheme for years, its like riding a bicycle.. Part of the issue we are having now besides that we are not built for it is that our linemen are having to think more than react, its evident in the amount of missed assignments and missed blocks. Getting back on the bike wouldn't be as messy as what we are doing now.

Playing Man is easy, you have a certain man you block according to the play called. Zone is the biatch because you are responsible for a gap and do not know which Defender is coming at you from which direction.. hence the need for agility and good feet so you can adjust.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

either way the saints need to address the OL. we have taking some gambles over the years and well they have not paid off. Drew is heading to a season being sacked more than ever before. there is an issue and it has to be addressed for the 2014 season. till then we get to see how good the coaching is. they need to control the bleeding and figure out what to do to stop it after. i am afraid it will be next year when we can stop it so lets be happy if we can get this under control.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

I think it should also be noted that our O-line isn't terrible, we're just used to having a top 5 line.

I think we're probably upper third in pass pro and bottom third in run blocking.

But as you said, our bread and butter is Drew Brees. Giving him the assets he needs trumps every other need on the field. Right now it looks like a couple O-linemen and a top flight WR.

I look for major free-agency moves for both those positions this off-season.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

no they are not all bad there are some pieces to keep. though strief is getting up there and we have seen the back up already and well they leave a lot to be desired. then i look at at the ps and scratch my head.

i understand wanting offensive toys but i think we have gone over board in that area. find some gems to develop on the OL and DL. stop signing WR and freaking CB. glamor only goes far you must win in the trenches first.

Alex Mack OC CLE is my deam signing at this point.

check back later when i get my head out of the clouds

in the draft i really like

Morgan Moses, ROT/OG Virginia he is perfect for the saints at RT. great run blocker and pass blocking has gotten really good since he lost 30+ pounds and moved to LOT. plus the big guy can move, that is all he does at Virigina. screens and miss direction play. big strong and athletic. i would not be surprised that at the combine his stock sky rockets. from the silly 4/5 ranking he has now to a 2/3.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Look, all teams get stuffed on running plays during games. Even Ivory was stuffed a couple of times for 0 or -yards. The difference is they continue to try and run the ball. As pass happy as Drew and Payton are, all they need is one negative play to give them a reason to abandon the run and they do it.
We have to run the ball 25 times a game period to have some sort of balance if not defenses will tee off on Brees and hit him a few times every game. Now this week against Homo and the girls it's likely to be a shootout with both teams abandoning the run early.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

If we can figure this out, and we're just fans, why can't those people on Airline Dr, figure it out. You would think they would have already known before zone blocking was implemented. The Saints DO NOT have the personnel for a zone blocking scheme.

Re: I have a riddle for you
 

Finally knowing a choice was wrong, and getting past the "owning" roadblock to change it isn't always a hurdle humans can easily overcome.

They know it, but have they admitted it yet.

It's also a dynamic situation. You see something isn't working but with the injuries we have had in oline it makes the root cause sort of gray.