JKool

Syco,

Look at you makin\' good points all over the place. We have certainly picked up a couple of good posters over the last two weeks. Welcome, in case I forgot to before.

Here is something you\'ve said, that I\'d like to discuss: \"However if he cant lead us to wins he isnt a great QB.\"

Do you really think this is true? I know this is kind of an old argument, but I\'ll make it again. (Notice the numbering of the points to make it seem more badazz - read convincing - than it is.)

1. Football is a team sport, but individual players have skills and talents that make them good/bad independent of who plays around them. This is how scouts make decisions about who to draft, trade for, etc.
2. The player is evaluated as an individual when it comes to assessing his draft status, trade value, etc.
3. Whether the team wins or loses does not depend on one player\'s skills and talents, but a combination of his with the other players and the game plan.

Thus, when a team does not win, I don\'t see how it reflects on the skills or talents of any one player. Sure sometimes it is the case that one player costs the team the game and sometimes one guy wins it for you, but more often than not that is not the case (and even then an argument can be made that it is the team that puts the player in a position - with respect to score, etc - to win or lose the game).

Thus, I don\'t see how winning or losing can have much to do with whether or not some guy is good (with respect to skill and talent), or even great, at his position, regardless of the position.

What say you?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

bayouking318

[quote:55af1b5486]Well, I personally don\'t get why people compare AB to Deuce or Horn. I mean, let\'s consider:

I compared their EFFORT. Are you saying if this was Favre playing the same way Brooks playing you \'ll let it slide. Do you see how stupid that sound? Yes, Brooks haven\'t made it to the Probowl but he is putting the effort in to make it this year. Brooks can\'t help it that the WR want hold on to the ball.

My question is what last year performance have anything to do with Brooks being blame for the team fault this year? People blame him for his fumbling the ball but most of those fumbles came from one game LAST YEAR \'S lost that he had a hand in helping to keep the game close. MY QUESTION TO ALL BROOKS HATER, NAME A PLAYER ON OFFENSE THAT YOU SEE PUTTING MORE EFFORT IN WINNING? If you can\'t find one then why not BOO the team and not single out one player? Let it be known I think it is kinda foolish booing anyone even Tsucky so soon in the season.

saintfan

You didn\'t ask me, but I agree. So then, here\'s a question:

What or why is it that you think someone with relative football savy would continue to blame ONE player...even for an OBVIOUS mistake made by another player?

AND

How do some manage to justify ONE player\'s worth based on wins and losses when it\'s clearly a team game?

SycoSurfer

Kool I totally agree and I prolly worded it wrong, but you get the point... I mean a great QB has the ability to carry a team to victories... I know Brooks is a solid QB, but I dont feel he can take a game over like a GREAT QB can. Brooks does put up great numbers, but I think that is based on the system and the talent we have. With a wide open offense like we have Brooks should put up big numbers every year. Trent Green isnt a great QB, but he has put up numbers... I know its not all him, but you get the point. Brooks wasnt a 1st round draft pick for a reason. He had all the physical skills, but the leadership and mental parts of the game were suspect... Teams sumtymes take a chance with a physically gifted athlete as Green Bay did. However they traded him for a reason... I think he has the chance to do special things if he can ever learn how to read Defenses, audible, throw it away... and just all in all become the LEADER of this team... Some teams take chances on leaders with less physical skills... Thats kinda how Tom Brady got where he is... He learned what he needed to learn and put it all together... Brooks needs to do that to become great... Just my opinion...

JKool

Ah. So, as I\'m sure most of us suspected, it seems as though W/L are EVIDENCE that some player or other is good or bad, but that isn\'t the whole story. Furthermore, W/L isn\'t even that great evidence is it, since, as SF points out, it is a team game? With that, I agree.

SF, you know what I think about this.

Syco, in a different thread I considered a question about whether or not Brooks has missed his prime developmental period due to being mishandled by Haz - if you spot that, I\'d like to hear what you have to say about it.

[Edited on 21/10/2004 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

fact-o-bake

Holy S#*t Whodi! That statement about best ever offense is bold.
Not saying it\'s untrue, just bold.
Who would be on the best ever Saints offense, of the past?
Willie Roaf, Kyle Turley, Jay Hilgenberg, Brad Eddleman, Steve Korte, Eric Martin, Hoby Brenner and/or John Tice, Terrelle Smith, Ricky Williams, Dalton Hilliard
Who would be Archie\'s backup? Hebert or Everet
Who else?

JKool

Stan Brock.

JKool

Oh yeah, and this may be unpopular, but I\'d take Iron Head over T-Rex.

fact-o-bake

Yeah I was thinking about Ironhead, He would be the better runner for sure, and Smith the better blocker.

saintswhodi

FOB,

I know it was bold and in my haste to make the staement I did not take into account the O-line, although I believe Bentley will be one of our greats. Also, I was thinking mainly along the lines of skill positions and Deuce was the crux of my offense. IMO, he is the best Saints rb of all time. I may be crucified for making that statement, but I will stand by it. You will be hard pressed to find a group of players on the Saints offense all-time better than the one we have now. By the way, Dalton Hilliard is my fav Saint of all time, but Deuce is still the best we have had. Mainly, just look at it pure talent wise and I may be right. lol