Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Always have been, always will be, it seems. In order to salvage some respect for this organization, there is only one thing that might work. The first step is to quit going to the dome. Once Benson gets the message that the party is over, he will do something, probably sell. When they get new ownership, they might have a chance to win...depends on who the owner is. Right now, with our current owner, he is satisfied with things the way they are....as long as the dome keeps selling out. If he is satisfied, Haz stays. If Haz stays, Brooks plays. If Brooks plays, we lose. I mean, just take a look at what they have already accomplished this year. A loss to Arizona, who had not won previously, followed by a loss to TB, who had not won previously. How can some of you guys keep supporting this kind of bull. GET A CLUE!!!

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I am going to reply to my own thread, because I left something out. I know that most of you will probably say, \"If Benson sells, the team may move!!\" I realize that, and, personally, it doesn\'t matter. I would rather see them go somewhere else, and have a chance at winning, finally, then to see them stay in N.O. trapped in a losing situation. I have followed the Saints since the beginning, and I guess I have had about as much of this bull as I can take.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

For you to serously say that the reason the saints arn\'t winning is because of the play of the quarterback Arron Brooks shows just how little you know about the game. I hope that true saints fans don\'t buy to much into your we can\'t win with a black quarterback bs. You should watch the games, cause from your comment you obviously don\'t. Arron Brooks has 8 td\'s and 3 ints and a completion % of about 60. If you cant see that the core of our problem is our defense then your wrong. We have an offense that hasen\'t been great but has played well enough for us to win, if we had even an average defense. All you brooks haters need to watch the game, I mean really watch the game and if all you can focus on is Arron Brooks then mabey you should watch some other teams play and get a perspective of how good of a quarterback we have. Good example watch Carolina and your beloved Jake Delhome and tell me who\'s the better quarterback. Its time to get real saints fans and realize that while we don\'t have Joe Montana playing for us we got a pretty good quarterback and we need to rally behind him because expecially right now he\'s one of the few bright spots that we have.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

The funny thing about all this pro-brooks/anti-brooks talk is that there are a few individuals who come to this site and regardless of how Brooks performs, they call for his head.

Now, I don\'t exactly see WhoDat, 08, and gator to be the sort that does that. They seem to me to be rooting for him, but are very aware that he might not be the best QB we could have or could have gotten in the past couple of off seasons.

BC seems to be a bit the otherside. He can see when Brooks screws up, but also sees that other players contribute to the problems Brooks has and would like to see those players called out just as often.

Then you have posters like LB who have an absolute hatred for AB regardless of what he does and will never change his mind. That\'s ok too, but it doesn\'t work very well in a forum like this. He has his reasons and whether they\'re football related or not, he\'s entitled to them.

There\'s no point in arguing it with that type, RSF, so I\'d just accept it and move on. People like that will never listen to what you say nor will they debate their position logically.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

You AB supporters are all alike. You can babble off all kinds of stats that apparently seem impressive to you, but, for some reason, you never talk too much about thw W/L column, or, the Superbowl victories we have. Someone comes around and tries to help you see the situation without your rose-colored glasses, and you all the sudden jump to the race card...saying that I don\'t like AB because he is black. If you read any of my posts, I never mention anything about his race, but for some reason, a lot of you always come back with the race card. Perhaps you should take a long look in the mirror, and see which person is using race to support his attitude towards Brooks. It must really burn you up that you can\'t come back and point out all of the high points the team has accomplished with him at the helm, instead of trying to dig up stats that ultimately don\'t really matter in the long run. Because, if they did matter, we would have a lot more wins to talk about now, but that isn\'t the case, is it?
I will admit, and have posted, that it is not AB\'s fault that they keep trotting him out there....it is not his fault if he doesn\'t have the savvy or finesse that it takes to play QB in the NFL. That is the coaches call, and that\'s why Haz is going to lose his job. Sometimes you just have to say that you were wrong, and then you can make an adjustment. Instead, we just keep losing.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Saint_LB:

The Saints play on Fox channels on Sunday, pending a Superdome sellout. You should try and watch a game, it\'s pretty exciting stuff!!

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

i do still think that JD is a better QB... not because of his stats, but becaue of his heart..... he never seems to give up.... yes he is NOT fundementaly sound or throws a pretty pass, but neither does brett farve.... BF even says that people should not watch him if they want to learn mechanics because he does not really have any.... JD and BF aaways seem to be fired up and in the game no matter what the position...everyone seems to be raggin JD right now, but just how good can someone do when they are a one dimentional team with only ONE decent reciever... all that says if that all the Defense has to do is cover one mand and pin thier ears back and rush the qb..... pretty much leaves him on an island.... nobody can win when both thier starting RB\'s go out as well as thier only real recieving threat....

what sticks in my head from last season is the quote that a lineman told the reporterss after JD came in in relief of rodney peete in the first game... he grabbed this 6\'8\" 320lbs linmen by the facemask and told him \"to get his head in the F\'in game\".... to me taht is leadership and a heart with a desire to win....

most of JD\'s highlight reels show him standing in teh pocket witha LB with an open shot at him, but by staying in there were FOUR different times he threw for a TD knowing he is going to get his block knocked off....
AB\'s highlight reels seem to consist of him moving out of the pocket and always running away (and a lot with really good protection)

i think it comes down to heart, and JD\'s ranks up there with the best of them, AB just doesn\'t seem to have it..... LOTS of skill with little heart will get you great numbers but few wins

[Edited on 25/10/2004 by TheJudge]

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Geez, I am tired of this....Did you NOT watch the game and actually listen to it? The Saints are dead last in defense (statistically). How can any quarterback overcome those odds of winning? To me, Jake Delhomme is a one-hit wonder. You say he has one reciever to work with, well so does Brooks. If they had caught half the dropped passes in the last two years, his stats would look that much better.

Put yourself in AB\'s shoes, try having the media and fans on your butt every week no matter how well or bad you play and go out and try to do your job. We have a terrible running game right now and the only games we win is because of Brooks. Our co-ordinators flat-out suck.

I am defending Brooks on the grounds that most people don\'t want him here for which is W/L. Personally, I don\'t think he wants to be here so I say bye-bye. I want him to be our QB more than anyone, but if any player doesn\'t want to be here, then leave.

In other notes, I liked the play of Brown and McKenzie. I just feel our D got tired at the end, but I was somewhat proud of those two guys.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

The problem ia not AB the problem is clearly Mike McCarthy. I mean have you ever noticed how predictible our play-calling is? Also we don\'t play to our strenghts on offense ex. when we are in a hurry up offense with 4 wide & 1 back we move down the field quickly & efficiently & Brooks is useully 100% completions & Duece can run the ball better with the defense spread out & their are not many,if any, defences that have enough good db\'s that can cover our skill players-Deuce,Horn,Stallworth,Paython,Lewis,& Henderson,not to mention Boo& Conwell. It seems like McCarthy comes out & tries to run Deuce until we have 3 or 4 three & outs before he gets creative & most of the time it is too late because our defense gets wore down after being on the field so much. I HATE Mike Martz but he could score 50 points a game with the talent we have on offense and that includes AB @ Until I see someone else calling the plays I will defend Aaron Brooks.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

yes i watched the game, i was simply responding to a previous post....

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I could have sworn that they won today. I must need new glasses.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Sadly, everyone seems to miss the point here about Brooks. Boogro has basically summed up the Brooks problem. He really doesn\'t want to be here. He has been touted as the \"savior\" of the Saints Offense. Haslett and McCarthy are responsible for this, in that, Brooks did not really \"earn\" the starting job, it fell into his lap. Blake was not great, but we were winning up to the point that he was hurt. Blake was NOT given a fair shot to compete for the job the following year, because of Hazlett and McCarthy\'s idea about Brooks \"potential.\" The problem was that Brooks wasn\'t mature enough to handle the starting role. I don\'t blame Brooks for this, I blame coaching. When Hazlett had Brooks in the final 4 games hurt, he couldn\'t afford to put Delhomme in, because Delhomme would have done well, gotten us into the playoffs and then you have a QB controversy. Instead, Brooks played hurt and we went down the tubes that year. Delhomme left last year and Hazlett got Bouman because he knew that Bouman wouldn\'t push AB, thererfore no QB arguments.

The problem with that is, that AB in his comments, and his behavior has lost respect of the team. They neither like nor respect Brooks. Therefore they don\'t play for him. They played well enough to win yesterday, because they don\'t want Haz fired and McCarthy, or worse yet, Venturi as HC.

This is not about \"Stats,\" \"race,\" or \"hating Brooks.\" These are facts that come from reputable sources in the media. Face it, Brooks will never, ever win the respect of this group of fans or players. They go though the motions. And when he gets banged up, many classless, stupid people are going to cheer his injury and clamor for Bouman.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Yes we do. Each and every time Brooks haters come along with the same tripe.

Listen closely. Pro football is a team game. It takes 53 guys, coaches, front office, owner, and even fans, along with some luck, to be consistently successful.

Brooks gets part of the blame. No one has a problem with that. However the haters always comes online and puts 100 percent of the blame on him. It\'s totally unrealistic.

There\'s never any discussion of the poor defense. Of the receiver\'s drops. Of the poor play calling. Or anything else that affects the outcome of a football game.

The funny thing is that now Brooks haters have really nothing that they can hang their hat on. Early on when he got the job, one could point to the excessive interceptions. Last year they pointed to the fumbles lost. But this year with 9TDs, 3INTs, 1 (or 2) fumbles lost, a 60% competion percentage, top 5 in the NFL in passing yards, there\'s simply isn\'t any glaring faults to point to. So it\'s back to \"leadership\". As if somehow Brooks could talk the defense into not giving up a franchise record 605 yards and 5 TDs to Minnesota. A game BTW that we lost only by 7 points and the offense scored a TD on its last possession of the ball.

Now back to the Brooks hating channel....

Interesting. That\'s the first time I\'ve seen the race card. That\'s my brother\'s assertion: the irrational dislike of Brooks is due to race.

But you keep coming back to wins. It\'s all about wins. Let\'s talk about wins. It\'s real simple:

THE TEAM WITH THE BEST DEFENSES CONSISTENTLY WINS IN THE NFL!!!!!

Last time I checked, the Saints had the worst defense in the NFL. 32nd out of 32 teams in both point and yards allowed. Let me recheck... Yup. 416 yards a game and 27.6 points a game are both dead last in the NFL.

And yet we are two games out of first place in the NFC South. We\'re a half game out from the last wild card spot. WIth 3 wins we\'re in the top half of the NFC with wins.

And here\'s important point: If our defense could just get to average, we\'d have 3 more wins. But the defense couldn\'t stop TB, Arizona, Minnesota, or Seattle from doing whatever they wanted with the ball: Running, Passing, or scoring. 4 of the 7 teams that we have played so far have scoring averages of less than 20 points per game for the season. Yet the Saints have given up more than 20 PPG to each and every team we\'ve played this season.

I\'d be right there with you if Brooks were screwing up every game. Throwing INTs, fumbling the ball. Throwing the ball into the dirt.

But he\'s not. He\'s hitting the receivers. He\'s being smart and careful with the ball, throwing it away when nothing\'s available. He occasionally misses the open read. But on the flip side receivers other than Horn (and Pathon of late) have dropped a bunch of balls.

So why the consistent blaming of Brooks? You keep discounting stats. But stats are kept for a reason. Stats are both a measure, and a indicator, of how well a team performs.

But you keep making the same assertion :

without any logical justification for it.

All I\'m asking is that you justify it. But you won\'t because you can\'t. But please try. I\'ll be waiting to read that.

SFIAH

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

If you need me to point out all of the chokes at the most crucial moments of important games...the mysterious drops without anyone touching him....the smiling at inappropriate times, something that makes a lot of people irritated....these are all things that make people grow tired and weary of his act. Personality, or savvy, is an important part of the QB position. People don\'t like you and it starts showing on both sides of the football. The Saints need someone to come in and provide a spark....it happens all the time. Brooks came in and did that very thing in 2000, Four years later we are all still waiting for him to return to that level of play....but, somewhere along the line, AB got to believing that he was a superstar and should be treated that way. I say you have to earn that, first, and, coming in one year and providing a spark for that one year does not make you a superstar. It is a good start, but you have to build on it, and that is where he has \"dropped the ball.\" (Pardon the pun!)

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

saint lb says they have no accomplishments with ab at the helm,but i do remember the only playoff win in the teams history

[Edited on 26/10/2004 by 2SAINTS04]

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

How long is he going to be allowed to ride that wave?

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

\"How long is he going to be allowed to ride that wave?\"

Until we have a QB that wins another playoff game.

Saint_LB, I feel your frustration about the Saints. But honestly, do you think __________ (plug in your favorite QB, McNabb, Manning, etc.) could help our defense tackle, remember who they\'re covering? Make our O-line stop friggin\' False Starting? If you think they can, then I would agree with you about getting rid of AB.

I get the Sunday Ticket so I watch a bunch of games each weekend, and I tell you what, you get a whole different perspective when you do so. AB smiles, AB fumbles at times etc. but he is better than most QB\'s I watch. Really.

Sure there are guys who I\'d want in there more than AB, like McNabb or Manning. But if you can ignore our pathetic defense, ignore Deuce\'s crucial fumble that lost us a game,IMO, and all the penalties...then brother, you are the one watching with rosy colored glasses.

Did you see how many dropped balls our WR\'s and TE\'s dropped in the past weeks? I mean, come on, Saint_LB, really? Sure, maybe AB is throwing them behind them, too fast, too soft, too perfect, but all I have heard all y life is \'if it hits you in the chest or hands, you\'re fault for not catching it\'. So how come you don\'t bring that up?

I think AB is a good QB and will proabbly make it to the Superbowl, but not with us. WE, the Saints\' organization, have to learn how to become winners, and fans of winners. We mis-manage talent, we mis-manage our emotions, and run people out of town.

I just think you\'re putting too much blame on 1 guy. It truly does take a whole organization to win ball games as SFIAH said. Not just QB\'s, coaches, players, etc.

SFIAH, well put response you gave. Kudos.

When AB haters complain about him, the WR\'s. the O-line, and Defense...i hear them. When they get in their tunnel vision attacks on just AB, I usually ignore it as just venting for venting\'s sake with no logic. The Saints will make you do that. I\'ve done it on thsi board a few weeks back wanting everyone\'s head....even the fans!!

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

You know I hate to ride this black verse white qb bus but there has only been one black qb to win a superbowl. Also Brooks no matter bhow he wants to get away from the scrambling label Brooks is a scrambling qb. No scrambling qb has won a superbowl only pocket passers. Sometimes I wish they had a stat called qb inticts because it seems common sense is not to common with Brooks. Also someone mentioned IQ Dan Marino had one of the lowest IQ in football history but is one of the best.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Steve Young was a scrambler. Oh, but he was a white boy.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Don\'t get me wrong I like Brooks but when you back peddle 15 yards than try to out juke everyone that shows a lack of being to able to read a defense. I mean what ever happened to the 123 drop if nothings open dump it to the tighend across the middle or your back coming out of the backfeild. Brooks does not seem to be able to fine the running lane when pressure is coming. Likes when your watching a game the announcer time and time again draws the running lane Brooks was not able to find.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I am not an AB hater. I am an advocate of change when change is needed. Lots of players have been replaced in order to see if the other guy might be able to do the job. I don\'t think that Bouman is the guy, however. J.T. might have done alright, maybe not. I sure would have liked to see what he could\'ve done. Just like on a few occasions before Jake moved on that I would have liked to have seen him given a shot, especially when AB was hurt and we were one win away from the playoffs with three weak teams to go. I don\'t know about you, but I am certainly more satisfied with Deuce being our guy than Ricky. If we hadn\'t have given Deuce a shot, we may not have gotten rid of Ricky before he flaked out. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING. I think it is time to give someone else a shot, but, I am not sure if that guy is currently on the roster, now that J.T. is gone. No, I don\'t blame all the problems on him, but I have wondered alot recently if someone else might be able to get both sides of the ball fired up, and play at their top level. Are you positive this team has not given up on him. I really wonder, sometimes.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Yes I forgot young was a scrambling qb. Good job blackandblue. I must say this white vs black qb thing I hate when people bring it up. Yes I KNOW i did but it is about as stupid as Johnny Cochran saying that if you don\'t bring in minority coaches for a visit when searching for a new coach you will lose your 1st round draft pick. Soon the white qb may be non existant. I mean look at the running back back position there is no such thing as a white runningback fullback yes. Alstott. You know I must say I can\'t wait for this to happen than maybe the whole white vs black qb debate will end.

[Edited on 28/10/2004 by blackwidows]

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

blackwidows,

That is pretty funny how you brought black/white into the convo and then said later you wished it would end. Have you enbibed this evening?

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

IMO we are blessed to have a kid with the arm and legs of AB. How many of us remember names live Everett, Shuler, the Billy Joes and Collins? Are we winning anywhere near as many with them? Are we even beginning to hope for a great year with them? No.

AB has done everything the coaches have asked of him and more. He can gun it like only 5 others in the NFL can, can scramble but holds in the pocket b/c it\'s what coaches tell him to do, and at any given moment can lead us down the field for a score I\'ve only ever seen done on Madden.

Frustrating thing about him is leadership. He doesn\'t, plain and simple. At least he isn\'t just smiling on the sidelines all the time anymore. If he whipped butt in the huddle maybe that gravy train of a line would protect him long enough.

Basically, black or white, AB is good and could be great. With out him we are the Buffalo Bills.

[Edited on 28/10/2004 by BiggPoppaFro3]

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

So just to get this straight. A player makes some mistakes and smiles at the wrong time and all of a sudden, he is disliked and other players start dropping balls, fumbling, false starting and stop playing defense.

You\'re kidding, right?

The types of problems that you\'re pointing out have been pretty much corrected this season. 1 fumble: admittedly at a crucial time, 3 INTS, no mysterious drops.

I haven\'t been measuring inappropriate smiles. Last time I checked that didn\'t help or hurt when it came to winning football games.

Nope. The Saints were 7-4 when Blake went down. No spark was required. Brooks just found a way to keep things going that season.

What level of play are you talking about? 24TDs, 8 Ints, 3500+ yards, and the unfortuate 11 lost fumbles are his line from last year. This year it\'s 9 TDs 3 INTs, and nearly 1700 yards in less than a half season. That projects out to 20+ TDs 7 INTS, 1 fumbles, 3500+ yards.
BTW all of the postive stats will be for the 4th straight year.

You seem to want change without real justification. Somehow you think that if you can get the right charisma in place that somehow that everyone is going to get fired up and start playing 1000 percent better.

As for the superstar label, I think Brooks simply wants a bit of appreciation from the fans and the media for what he has done. Some in the national media gets it. Since I\'m in Atlanta I have to listen to the Fox commentatators for the game. One pointed out this exact argument that you and I are having here. He couldn\'t understand why the Saints fans and media are so hard on the guy.

Would you be happy if you were blamed for all the teams woes when in fact that close to the only reason that the team has the 3 wins that it has is because of your efforts.

Personally I\'m glad the guy can chuckle in the face of this type of adversity. It\'s one of the reasons why his production remains high even in the face of all of the obstacles that abound around here.


SFIAH

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I suppose we\'ll just have to agree to disagree. I would like to see someone else get a shot to lead our team at the position that is most watched by most fans. It is not rocket science. He has had his shot.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I think London an Co. would be insulted.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I agree to disagree. I\'ll be quiet after I ask one last question:

So exactly who would you give a chance to lead this team now?

SFIAH

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

That is an excellent question, SFIAH. As I mentioned previously, I don\'t think Bouman is the answer, and I would rather see AB play than him. I would have liked to see what J.T. could have done, but I had never even heard of him before he was a Saint. When I did see him play, I thought he brought that spark that I referred to earlier. I realize that he would have been sort of a long shot, but, I still would have liked to see what he could\'ve done, kinda like I would have liked to see what Jake could\'ve done before we let him go. With that being said, the way things are now, I probably would have to go the trade route, or the draft. There were a couple of good ones in last years draft, at least two. I wouldn\'t be too sad about having Ben R. on our roster now....hind sight being twenty\'/twenty. Obviously, Eli would have been nice. Those two guys would not have been too much of a stretch of the imagination for us to have traded up to get too, especially if we would have included AB in the deal. If I start fantasizing, of course it would have been nice to pry Peyton away from Indy, or Favre away from GB, being that both those guys are local kids it would have been a good fit....a good fit for us fans, probably not for the players, though. They could end up in the same boat that AB is in now.....as the Saints have always been losers and have had some pretty big names back there trying to turn it around, but usually near the end of their careers...such as Stabler, Chrissy, Todd, etc.
I have a question for you, SFIAH. Did you use to go to the old message board on the Saint website? If so, did your name begin with a J? Let me know, I think we may have had this disagreement a few times in the past!!!

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I\'m back because I think the discussion has turned in a new direction.

Look at that! We agree on something!

BTW does anyone know what magic potion Dennis Green gives QBs to make them look like all World when they play for him, and crap elsewhere? Maybe we should consider sending Brooks to the Cardinals. He, the old man, and Pendergast defense would make it deep into the playoffs next year.

It was my thought that J.T. should have been the second string QB. The Saints may regret letting him go down the road.
Trade up with what? Next year\'s draft picks? Two consecutive #1\'s is way too steep a price to pay. Just look at the disaster that occured the last time this organization did that.

And trading up to get a QB when the CB and LB positions needed so much help would be real hard to justify. Remember that everyone around here wanted Vilma in April. A trade up into the top 10 had better had been for Robinson or Hall, a need so dire that we finally traded for McKenzie.
Glad you marked it as a fantasy.

But let\'s keep this going. The great thing about the NFL is that next year there\'s going to be more players available. I\'m not completely up to speed on who is going to be available next year but on to the questions:

1. What upcoming QB would you look to draft?
2. Say for the sake of argument that in the draft position the Saints end up with you have players such as WR Mike Williams, or a top LB in the Vilma class. Would you still take a QB?

Nope and nope. I\'m a brand new adversary.

SFIAH

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

I have not had a chance to watch much college football this year as my job has been keeping me pretty busy, and I would want to reserve my decision until the bowl games are over. Right now, I couldn\'t even tell you the names of many QB\'s who are presently seniors in college. As far as other positions, I would draft Williams in a heart beat if he was still on the board somehow when we drafted, but if a QB emerges that appears to be the real deal, I would go for him, first...due to our need for a solid QB. Horn, Pathon, Stallworth, Henderson, etc. give us a pretty good corp of receivers. What good are they if we can\'t get the ball to them. AB doen\'t have problems getting the ball there sometimes, it\'s his consistency that will drive you nuts, and some sort of mistake at the most inopportune time. I am of the philosophy of drafting the best player available at the time of your draft, regardless of need. If we hadn\'t done that a few years ago, Deuce would be playing for someone else right now.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Well, I guess I have to finally wade in.

The original statement here was - Brooks and the Saints are losers. Hard to agree with that right now, b/c honestly, they\'re very average. A better statement may be - Brooks and the Saints are Average.

There\'s a lot of talk about whether AB is the problem. In this case, I\'m not sure that the point of the thread is whether AB is the problem, part of the problem, or not the problem at all. Nor does it seem to be a question of who would make a suitable replacement.

To me, the question is - are AB and the Saints losers? No, they\'re inconsistent and mediocre. Both of them. You can point to AB\'s stats or come from behind victories, but that doesn\'t change the W/L column.

Now, many of you will undoubtedly ague that just b/c a QB is on a team that is successful does not mean that he is a good QB or right for the job, etc. You\'re partially right. Talent is no doubt an important factor. However, do not discount the importance of the intangibles - like having done it before and bringing the attitude that you will do it again. That\'s very important also.

I\'m sure many will be quick to rush in with the Jake D argument again, or the Dilfer argument. Those are valid examples. Of course, if talent is king, why haven\'t the Saints been above average over the last 4 years?

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

WELL UR RIGHT IN SAYING THAT IF TALENT IS KING WHY AHVENT THE SAINTS DONE WELL. I AGREE WITH U ON INTANGIBLES. TOM BRADY ISNT AS GIFTED PROBALLY AS MANNING. JOE MONTANA PROBALLY WASNT EITHER. BUT THEY R WINNERS. I STILL GO BACK TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS A TEAM GAME AND DOESNT WEIGH ON ONE MAN SHOULDERS. AND COACHING PLAYS A HUGE PART TOO. LOOK AT THE EGALES AND SUCH TEAMS. THEY DONT MAKE THE MISTAKES. I THINK THAT IS WHERE COACHING IS MOST VALUABLE. GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR PLAYTERS. CHRIST LOOK AT PHILLY MAKING THE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME THREE YEARS N THEY DIDNT HAVE A REAL WO. I THINK THATS BECAUSE OF THEIR COACHING. I THINK WE HAVE HUGE COACHING PROBLEMS. I DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW VENTURI STILL HAS A JOB. BUT THATS ANOTHER DISCUSSION. BUT I AGREE WITH YOU ON A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAID BUT I DONT SEE ARRON BROOKS AS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM. I DO THINK THAT WITH A DIFFERENT STAFF THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Brooks and the Saints are standing on the precipice of loserdom right now. They still have a realistic shot at coming out of the season smelling like roses. I think the jury should remain out for at least a few more weeks. If they don\'t succeed this year then we all know there is going to be wholesale changes, however calling them losers with any degree of certainty is about a month premature in my opinion.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

You\'re probably right, but then again looking ahead to the next month doesn\'t paint a real pretty picture. @ SD, KC, Denver, @ Atlanta. Ouch.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

What most of us fail to realize is that Brooks is the LIGHTNING ROD for the problems of the Saints. He has said and done some things that make him the subject of controversy. The REAL problem lies deeper than whether Jake Delhomme/ J.T. O\'Sullivan/Drew Brees/Aaron Brooks is the answer to this team\'s problems.

The REAL problem starts, not on the field, but in the Front Office and trickles down to the Coaching Staff. Many of the writers that I have read, both local and national, seem to agree that the Saints lack a \"Football IQ.\" I tend to agree with that assessment. I believe that Brooks is poorly coached by Mike Sheppard. He has some seriously flawed fundamental skills, his decision making is slow (at times), and his \"touch\" on short passes is poor. The play calling is abominable. McCarthy is Carl Smith reincarnated. He is predictable, short sighted, and married to that sheet of paper in his hand on game day. He does not make \"adjustments\" to fit the situation. And what can anyone say positive about Venturi, other than he is one of God\'s children.

Aaron Brooks is blessed with tremendous athletic ability, but few, if any, leadership skills. Leaders are made, not born. Brooks has no leadership from either the Front Office or the Coaching staff, so how is he expected to lead? If you watch the Saints on any given Sunday they tend to mill around. You never know who will show up. They are totally leaderless on both sides of the ball. They are not a Mob. A Mob has a leader, these guys are a Herd.

What needs to happen is for Benson to clean house from Front Office to Water Boy, find a FOOTBALL minded GM (like Rich McKay) allow him to hire a coaching staff with skills in leadership and discipline and see what transpires. Brooks will then either shine or go.

Mainly, Brooks ain\'t the problem. He\'s the symptom.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Wow. Now that\'s a really well written post.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think the argument of AB supporters has been that AB is not THE problem. I agree, but that does not mean that he is not A problem. Quarterbacks are often in the lime light and attract more attention than other positions. AB may get unfairly criticized at times, but I won\'t feel sorry for a guy who proclaimed himself a top 5 QB in the league after 20 starts. Especially when the guy lacks a lot of important tangible and intangible assets a top 5 QB should have.

More than anything, AB\'s play has been typical of the team\'s. AB is often categorized by his inconsistency, lackidasical attitude (maybe even apathetic at times), poor leadership and direction, slow development, and raw talent that just never seems to materialize into the greatness that it could. Take a look at that last sentence - now insert \"this team\" where \"AB\" is and see if the statement still holds true. That may be why AB is trashed more than others. Some may same that its coincidental, but it seems awfully hard for me to simply dismiss one as being totally unrelated to the other.

All that said, I agree completely your assessment of the front office and this organization\'s needs. I have been criticized on this board for choosing to use Kyle Turley\'s words, \"Mickey Mouse.\" Say what you will, but the problems all stem from Loomis and Haslett. The problems are first and foremost \"institutional\" or \"enterprise\" issues. The internal culture of the organization needs to change top to bottom, and that will only come with a house cleaning.

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

1st of all most people on this forum want the Saints to stay -- a lot (including myself) do not see Benson as the root of the problem - case in point - since he took over our record has improved dramatically over previous years. Don\'t know the exact stat but I bet its close to .500. I do know that since he took over we have a better combined winning % than about 1/2 the teams. As for Brooks -- I am not a Brooks fan but I will say this -- he is not the biggest problem we should be dealing with. So do this forum a favor and go home to your mom :exclam:

[Edited on 11/3/2004 by Halo]

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Still the question persists, are Brooks and the Saints losers?

Brooks and Saints are losers
 

Looks like it. :)