Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season

Utah_Saint · 01-23-2014, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

One of the reasons I like to check out PFF is that I, as a fan, am not able to see things in perspective. I see things the way I want to see them. I think most fans do. We invest a lot of emotion into our teams and it's only natural to see things with black and gold colored glasses. Anyway, that's why I refer to a stat site, to see the facts. And how they compare to other players and teams around the league.

For example, 26 hurries seems like a lot for one guy to allow. But when you compare it to all the other tackles in the NFL, 26 is about the middle of the road, it's tied for 40th out of 75 tackles (25% of offensive snaps). And if we dig a little deeper, and consider how many passing plays Strief was in, 647, we see that it is only 4.8% of the time. That's the third best percentage of all tackles, left or right, in the league in 2013. So we may think we saw Strief give up a lot of hurries, maybe because we were ticked off that Drew had to scramble again, but the fact of the matter is, he really did do a great job in pass protection.

As far as holding penalties, Strief had 3 for the season. He also had 1 false start and 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. 5 penalties is right in the middle of the number of penalties for offensive linemen.

Off Topic:
While looking for penalties I saw this little fun fact. Drew Brees led the league in penalties, actually he was in a 3 way tie, with 12. Drew had 8 delay of game, 3 false starts and 1 intentional grounding.

Back on topic:
I agree with you, if the Saints decide to upgrade on the O-Line, I hope they do it one player at a time. I believe the longer a O-Line plays together, they better they play together. I would worry that wholesale change, even for better players, would hurt the chemistry.

But that last part is just my opinion.

Saintaintso · 01-23-2014, 02:35 AM

Don't want anyone that gets manhandled ... Really tho

rezburna · 01-23-2014, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

Of course, my friend...

The tackles,

Strief - 3 sacks, 4 hits and 26 hurries, (1062 snaps)
Brown - 7 sacks 9 hits and 33 hurries, (974 snaps)
Armstead - 3 sacks, 1 hit and 3 hurries (141 snaps)
Harris - 1 sack, 3 hits, and 7 hurries (246 snaps)

The guards,

Grubbs - 3 sacks, 5 hits, 20 hurries (1154 snaps)
Evans - 2 sacks, 4 hits, 12 hurries (999 snaps)
Lelito - 4 sacks, 0 hits, 5 hurries (162)

The Center

De La Puente - 3, sacks, 3, hits, 9 hurries (1154 snaps)

Thats not as bad as I would've thought. Maybe its more of Drew Brees making the line look both good and bad at certain times. I know he has a bad habit of holding the ball and chasing the big play all the time instead of taking what the defense gives him like he used to. Interesting. I'll leave Strief alone...for now.

Jack Vegas · 01-23-2014, 10:43 AM

^ the above stats confirm my observation that Grubbs was a bum for a big chunk of the year. You want to look at guys who underperformed, he should be one of the first.

lee909 · 01-23-2014, 10:44 AM

Can't have helped having Brown outside of him.

TheOak · 01-23-2014, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

Come on... Seriously? We have had subpar tackles for "years", devised blocking schemes to mask for "years"?

As far as for your opening paragraph about PFF. You prefer a scout that should be scouting or is/had been a scout for a team that could possibly be partial grading our players? More than a 3rd party neutral company that makes its living being accurate?

You prefer a scouts opinion over an analysts methodology? Scouts are for evaluating potential talent, analysts that are impartial evaluate performance with empirical data.

TheOak · 01-23-2014, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by lee909

Can't have helped having Brown outside of him.

...or DLP on the inside of him. I have tried stressing how much players on the offensive line are effected by the person next to them but it doesn't seem to get through.

lee909 · 01-23-2014, 11:10 AM

Only took one man to break on a Anglo-Saxon shieldwall or a Spartan phalanx to collapse the line, same rules apply to the offensive line.

FinSaint · 01-23-2014, 11:14 AM

I'd be fine with Strief staying with the team, but if he's looking for a big payday - then it might force the Saints' hand in making the decision to depart with him.

In any case, I'd much rather see the center position upgraded than any other on the O-line, because the inside pressure allowed by DLP this past season was unacceptable most of the time.

Oh, and I wouldn't miss Harper all that much even though he wasn't all that bad during the latter parts of the season - he's just making too much money and we can thank Gregg Williams and the labor dispute for that little gift.

Jack Vegas · 01-23-2014, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by lee909

Can't have helped having Brown outside of him.

No doubt. But he wasn't very good in pure one-on-one situations either. He got manhandled in the Dolphins game in particular, and generally looked bad until about week 10 or so when the offensive line as a whole seemed to pick it up.

But the deal is, you're paying Grubbs $9 million a year because he is supposed to be an elite guard and a guy who helps make the players around him better. For the most part he did not do that.

Originally Posted by TheOak

...or DLP on the inside of him. I have tried stressing how much players on the offensive line are effected by the person next to them but it doesn't seem to get through.

DLP's biggest issue to me is the communication stuff, not his blocking. You don't count on a center to do a lot of crucial blocking assignments anyway, his job is more about getting everybody set up right, pointing out blitzes, that kind of stuff. And he was certainly lacking in that, especially on the road for some reason. But not everybody can be a star; I think you need cheap mid-level guys in certain positions so you can have a viable roster under the cap, and center seems to be one of those positions league-wide where that is often the case. Price-to-performance ratio, I like the way DLP played for $2 million this year a whole lot more than the way Grubbs played for $9 million.

that is not an indictment of anybody on our line though, I really think going forward the starting 5 should stay intact. IMO, the line's real problem was scheme/coaching changes more than a talent issue, which explains why they really picked up their play in the second half of the year (Brown's struggles aside). I think a year together and another offseason will do the line as a unit a whole lot of good.

01-23-2014, 02:10 AM	#21
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by burningmetal I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change. One of the reasons I like to check out PFF is that I, as a fan, am not able to see things in perspective. I see things the way I want to see them. I think most fans do. We invest a lot of emotion into our teams and it's only natural to see things with black and gold colored glasses. Anyway, that's why I refer to a stat site, to see the facts. And how they compare to other players and teams around the league. For example, 26 hurries seems like a lot for one guy to allow. But when you compare it to all the other tackles in the NFL, 26 is about the middle of the road, it's tied for 40th out of 75 tackles (25% of offensive snaps). And if we dig a little deeper, and consider how many passing plays Strief was in, 647, we see that it is only 4.8% of the time. That's the third best percentage of all tackles, left or right, in the league in 2013. So we may think we saw Strief give up a lot of hurries, maybe because we were ticked off that Drew had to scramble again, but the fact of the matter is, he really did do a great job in pass protection. As far as holding penalties, Strief had 3 for the season. He also had 1 false start and 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. 5 penalties is right in the middle of the number of penalties for offensive linemen. Off Topic: While looking for penalties I saw this little fun fact. Drew Brees led the league in penalties, actually he was in a 3 way tie, with 12. Drew had 8 delay of game, 3 false starts and 1 intentional grounding. Back on topic: I agree with you, if the Saints decide to upgrade on the O-Line, I hope they do it one player at a time. I believe the longer a O-Line plays together, they better they play together. I would worry that wholesale change, even for better players, would hurt the chemistry. But that last part is just my opinion. Danno likes this.

01-23-2014, 02:35 AM	#22
Saintaintso 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 937	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Don't want anyone that gets manhandled ... Really tho
Saintaintso 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 937

01-23-2014, 09:55 AM	#23
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,935	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by Utah_Saint Of course, my friend... The tackles, Strief - 3 sacks, 4 hits and 26 hurries, (1062 snaps) Brown - 7 sacks 9 hits and 33 hurries, (974 snaps) Armstead - 3 sacks, 1 hit and 3 hurries (141 snaps) Harris - 1 sack, 3 hits, and 7 hurries (246 snaps) The guards, Grubbs - 3 sacks, 5 hits, 20 hurries (1154 snaps) Evans - 2 sacks, 4 hits, 12 hurries (999 snaps) Lelito - 4 sacks, 0 hits, 5 hurries (162) The Center De La Puente - 3, sacks, 3, hits, 9 hurries (1154 snaps) Thats not as bad as I would've thought. Maybe its more of Drew Brees making the line look both good and bad at certain times. I know he has a bad habit of holding the ball and chasing the big play all the time instead of taking what the defense gives him like he used to. Interesting. I'll leave Strief alone...for now.

01-23-2014, 10:43 AM	#24
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season ^ the above stats confirm my observation that Grubbs was a bum for a big chunk of the year. You want to look at guys who underperformed, he should be one of the first.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

01-23-2014, 10:44 AM	#25
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Can't have helped having Brown outside of him. FinSaint likes this.

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01-23-2014, 10:48 AM	#26
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by burningmetal I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change. Come on... Seriously? We have had subpar tackles for "years", devised blocking schemes to mask for "years"? As far as for your opening paragraph about PFF. You prefer a scout that should be scouting or is/had been a scout for a team that could possibly be partial grading our players? More than a 3rd party neutral company that makes its living being accurate? You prefer a scouts opinion over an analysts methodology? Scouts are for evaluating potential talent, analysts that are impartial evaluate performance with empirical data.

01-23-2014, 10:51 AM	#27
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by lee909 Can't have helped having Brown outside of him. ...or DLP on the inside of him. I have tried stressing how much players on the offensive line are effected by the person next to them but it doesn't seem to get through.

01-23-2014, 11:10 AM	#28
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Only took one man to break on a Anglo-Saxon shieldwall or a Spartan phalanx to collapse the line, same rules apply to the offensive line.

01-23-2014, 11:14 AM	#29
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season I'd be fine with Strief staying with the team, but if he's looking for a big payday - then it might force the Saints' hand in making the decision to depart with him. In any case, I'd much rather see the center position upgraded than any other on the O-line, because the inside pressure allowed by DLP this past season was unacceptable most of the time. Oh, and I wouldn't miss Harper all that much even though he wasn't all that bad during the latter parts of the season - he's just making too much money and we can thank Gregg Williams and the labor dispute for that little gift. Utah_Saint likes this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

01-23-2014, 12:34 PM	#30
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by lee909 Can't have helped having Brown outside of him. No doubt. But he wasn't very good in pure one-on-one situations either. He got manhandled in the Dolphins game in particular, and generally looked bad until about week 10 or so when the offensive line as a whole seemed to pick it up. But the deal is, you're paying Grubbs $9 million a year because he is supposed to be an elite guard and a guy who helps make the players around him better. For the most part he did not do that. Originally Posted by TheOak ...or DLP on the inside of him. I have tried stressing how much players on the offensive line are effected by the person next to them but it doesn't seem to get through. DLP's biggest issue to me is the communication stuff, not his blocking. You don't count on a center to do a lot of crucial blocking assignments anyway, his job is more about getting everybody set up right, pointing out blitzes, that kind of stuff. And he was certainly lacking in that, especially on the road for some reason. But not everybody can be a star; I think you need cheap mid-level guys in certain positions so you can have a viable roster under the cap, and center seems to be one of those positions league-wide where that is often the case. Price-to-performance ratio, I like the way DLP played for $2 million this year a whole lot more than the way Grubbs played for $9 million. that is not an indictment of anybody on our line though, I really think going forward the starting 5 should stay intact. IMO, the line's real problem was scheme/coaching changes more than a talent issue, which explains why they really picked up their play in the second half of the year (Brown's struggles aside). I think a year together and another offseason will do the line as a unit a whole lot of good.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

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