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-   -   Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season? (https://blackandgold.com/saints/64497-jimmy-graham-demanding-12-million-per-season.html)

TheOak 03-01-2014 03:01 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 580182)
If Pierre lines up at wide receiver twice as often as he lines up in the backfield then yes, he has a legit claim at the designation. Espcially if it means an extra $5 million a year.


Then you should probably refer to JG as WR from now on. I hope Jimmy Graham gets WR pay and what you think he is worth somewhere else. His name will be removed from all Tight End records, including the Saints record books. You no longer have the best TE in the game, you have got your self a bonafied top 20 WR.

But it doesn't work that way, if it did Luke McCown would have H by his name.

"Lining up" means nothing.

TheOak 03-01-2014 03:03 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
BTW I have some idiotic theory that Jimmy Grahams inability to block has a great deal to do with our predictability and our run game.

blackangold 03-01-2014 03:09 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 580165)
Just curious, who would you consider elite wide receivers?

Dez Bryant? Over the last three years, Graham has 36 less yards and 2 more touchdowns?
Andre Johnson? Graham has 10 more yards and 25 more touchdowns
Demaryius Thomas? Graham has 92 more yards and 8 more touchdowns.

And the list goes on and on. Since his rookie season, Graham has better numbers than;
Antonio Brown
Roddy White
Jordy Nelson
DeSean Jackson
Pierre Garcon
Julio Jones....

Truth is, over the last 3 years there are only 7 wide receivers have more yards that Graham and none have more touchdowns.

I think its pretty safe to say that every receiver would benefit from playing with a great quarterback and a pass first offensive mastermind.

And Payton tries to get Graham lined up against most corners. That's why he lines up wide over a quarter of the time he's in the game. He's too big for most corners to cover and it becomes an easy game of pitch and catch. There are only a few corners in the league that can cover him.

Just my opinion, but I think the stats show that he definitely deserves to be listed among the top receivers in the NFL.

Solely based his stats, PFF values him at $12.3mil/year.

Whether the Saints can afford him is a completely different question all together.

Your missing the entire point of my post. If Jimmy was lining up as a WR 100% of the time then he would be slightly above average. He is a mis-match nightmare because he is a TE...

Comparing player vs player with stats is useless. If Dez was in Payton's offense and had Drew throwing to him... you get my point?

Systemic players aren't worth huge contracts.

xan 03-01-2014 03:27 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
I am a fan of JG, but not at 10, much less 12. And you all know what I think about giving any player more than 8% of total cap space.

If you look at recent SB winning teams, their cap is not skewed toward 2-3 players. We got off the rails by giving good players #1 HOF contracts. Stop. I'd rather get back on track than keep getting blackmailed.

Never fall in love with real estate.

rezburna 03-01-2014 03:42 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 580186)
Then you should probably refer to JG as WR from now on. I hope Jimmy Graham gets WR pay and what you think he is worth somewhere else. His name will be removed from all Tight End records, including the Saints record books. You no longer have the best TE in the game, you have got your self a bonafied top 20 WR.

But it doesn't work that way, if it did Luke McCown would have H by his name.

"Lining up" means nothing.

You've been on my good side for the last couple of months Oak. Keep this up and I'm motioning you get your own holiday on these forums.

Utah_Saint 03-02-2014 02:59 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackangold (Post 580190)
Your missing the entire point of my post. If Jimmy was lining up as a WR 100% of the time then he would be slightly above average. He is a mis-match nightmare because he is a TE...

Comparing player vs player with stats is useless. If Dez was in Payton's offense and had Drew throwing to him... you get my point?

Systemic players aren't worth huge contracts.

I might have missed the point, sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake.

But...

He's a mis-match nightmare because he's 6 foot 6 inches tall, 265 pounds and runs a 4.5 forty. Not because of his position designation.

It doesn't matter what you call him. If the other team could stop him they would. They're not standing on their sidelines saying "If only Jimmy Graham were a receiver, we could put our best defender on him".

Utah_Saint 03-02-2014 03:29 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 580186)
Then you should probably refer to JG as WR from now on. I hope Jimmy Graham gets WR pay and what you think he is worth somewhere else. His name will be removed from all Tight End records, including the Saints record books. You no longer have the best TE in the game, you have got your self a bonafied top 20 WR.

But it doesn't work that way, if it did Luke McCown would have H by his name.

"Lining up" means nothing.

I hope Jimmy Graham stays with the Saints what ever designation he gets. It doesn't look like the Saints will be able to afford it though because of their cap situation and the money he's likely to be offered based on his production. I'm hoping that his desire to stay with Drew and the Saints out weighs his greed. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen much, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Article 10, Section 9 says the position a player is tagged at is determined by"...the position above at which he participated in the most plays during the prior league year."

So it sounds like "Lining up" means just about everything.

Utah_Saint 03-02-2014 03:45 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 580167)
Lets line him up at receiver for 100% of the plays and see if the production remains the same. That we he can always face the teams number one corner like most elite receivers do. Matter fact, whats Gronks numbers? He can play receiver too I guess.

He does play in the receiver most of the time. The Saints try to get him isolated on corners. He's too big for most corners to cover.

Gronk's numbers over the last three seasons are 2709 yards and 32 touchdowns.

TheOak 03-02-2014 04:24 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 580252)
I hope Jimmy Graham stays with the Saints what ever designation he gets. It doesn't look like the Saints will be able to afford it though because of their cap situation and the money he's likely to be offered based on his production. I'm hoping that his desire to stay with Drew and the Saints out weighs his greed. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen much, so I'm not going to hold my breath.



Article 10, Section 9 says the position a player is tagged at is determined by"...the position above at which he participated in the most plays during the prior league year."



So it sounds like "Lining up" means just about everything.


Nope, that is exactly what a modern-day tight end looks like.

Cue "The Autumn Wind", and James Earl Jones goes on to explain the evolution of the game and it's players.

Then I go on to explain that I am the arbitrator and that this has nothing to do with what Jimmy Graham is but what the Modern-Day definition of a Tight End is. I will also go on about precedent and that JG set that when he allowed himself to be Drafted, Put in record books, play, draw a pay check, and go to a pro-bowl as a Tight End. In today's NFL many positions are dual roll and Jimmy is no more a wide receiver than Darren Sproles is, even though both spent more time receiving.


Did you pull that reference out of thin air?
It's Article 10, Section 2(a)(i) and it doesn't say "lined up", it says "at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year.” Things change between line-up and snap.

lee909 03-02-2014 04:28 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
It would be interesting to see other TE stats of lining up over the past two years.
Vernon Davis, Gronk,Hernandez, Gonzalez, Jordan Cameron, Thomas at Denver all played a major part in receiving.

TheOak 03-02-2014 04:40 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 580257)
It would be interesting to see other TE stats of lining up over the past two years.
Vernon Davis, Gronk,Hernandez, Gonzalez, Jordan Cameron, Thomas at Denver all played a major part in receiving.


Let's see if I can grab some. Give me a minute

TheOak 03-02-2014 04:47 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 580257)
It would be interesting to see other TE stats of lining up over the past two years.
Vernon Davis, Gronk,Hernandez, Gonzalez, Jordan Cameron, Thomas at Denver all played a major part in receiving.


Notice Slot Tatgets vs TE Targets for Graham, also notice at least 1/3 of the TEs line up with greater than 50% in the slot.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/02/uva8a9ed.jpg

Utah_Saint 03-02-2014 04:50 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 580256)
Nope, that is exactly what a modern-day tight end looks like.

Cue "The Autumn Wind", and James Earl Jones goes on to explain the evolution of the game and it's players.

Then I go on to explain that I am the arbitrator and that this has nothing to do with what Jimmy Graham is but what the Modern-Day definition of a Tight End is. I will also go on about precedent and that JG set that when he allowed himself to be Drafted, Put in record books, play, draw a pay check, and go to a pro-bowl as a Tight End. In today's NFL many positions are dual roll and Jimmy is no more a wide receiver than Darren Sproles is, even though both spent more time receiving.


Did you pull that reference out of thin air?
It's Article 10, Section 2(a)(i) and it doesn't say "lined up", it says "at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year.” Things change between line-up and snap.

I've read a couple sports writers reference the "modern day tight end" designation as a possibility but it will require that the arbitrator makes a kind of new position. One in which tight end doesn't mean the player lines up tight on the end of the line. Who knows, could happen.

And no, I didn't pull it out of thin air. It's in the NFL CBA. You can read it here. Kinda dry though.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/...-2011-2020.pdf

Article 10 section 9 is on page 49. The section I quoted is right about the middle of the page. "...above at which he participated in the most plays during the prior League Year"

Article 10 section 2 also says "... at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year,

Looks like it says it twice.

I don't know man, saying things change between line up and snap seems like a pretty big reach to me.

lee909 03-02-2014 04:54 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Just shows the evolution of the position.It might explain Loomis confidence in the TE tag.

One third of TE lining up in slot, pro bowl at TE, drafted as a TE.


When I see a bird that*walks like a duck*and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. ”*

TheOak 03-02-2014 05:18 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 580267)
Just shows the evolution of the position.It might explain Loomis confidence in the TE tag.

One third of TE lining up in slot, pro bowl at TE, drafted as a TE.


When I see a bird that*walks like a duck*and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. ”*


Is my math incorrect or does he actually not take more snaps at slot than TE? He ran 538 routes only 268 in the slot. 134 targets 67 @ slot.

ScottF 03-02-2014 08:44 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 580264)
I've read a couple sports writers reference the "modern day tight end" designation as a possibility but it will require that the arbitrator makes a kind of new position. One in which tight end doesn't mean the player lines up tight on the end of the line. Who knows, could happen.

And no, I didn't pull it out of thin air. It's in the NFL CBA. You can read it here. Kinda dry though.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/...-2011-2020.pdf

Article 10 section 9 is on page 49. The section I quoted is right about the middle of the page. "...above at which he participated in the most plays during the prior League Year"

Article 10 section 2 also says "... at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year,

Looks like it says it twice.

I don't know man, saying things change between line up and snap seems like a pretty big reach to me.

I could see a clearer distinction made for a few positions DE-LB, running vs receiving RB's, NT-DT. Take the gray area out of the Tag

Danno 03-02-2014 09:12 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottF (Post 580283)
I could see a clearer distinction made for a few positions DE-LB, running vs receiving RB's, NT-DT. Take the gray area out of the Tag

Not a bad idea. LT's, OG's, OC's, RT's, DE's, DT's DE/OLB's, MLB, OLB, FS, and SS's should all be separated.

Here's how it is now...

Quarterback - $16,912,000
Offensive Linemen (includes Offensive Tackle, Offensive Guard, Center) -$11,654,000
Wide Receiver -$12,312,000
Running Back (includes all Fullbacks and Halfbacks) - $9,540,000
Tight End - $7,035,000
Defensive End - $13,116,000
Defensive Tackle - $9,654,000
Linebacker - $11,455,000
Cornerback - $11,834,000
Safety - $8,433,000
Kicker or Punter $3,556,000

TheOak 03-02-2014 09:33 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 580287)
Not a bad idea. LT's, OG's, OC's, RT's, DE's, DT's DE/OLB's, MLB, OLB, FS, and SS's should all be separated.



Here's how it is now...



Quarterback - $16,912,000

Offensive Linemen (includes Offensive Tackle, Offensive Guard, Center) -$11,654,000

Wide Receiver -$12,312,000

Running Back (includes all Fullbacks and Halfbacks) - $9,540,000

Tight End - $7,035,000

Defensive End - $13,116,000

Defensive Tackle - $9,654,000

Linebacker - $11,455,000

Cornerback - $11,834,000

Safety - $8,433,000

Kicker or Punter $3,556,000


Those are "Exclusive Franchise Tag" numbers. Jimmy's number has not been calculated yet as far as I can find. Non-Exclusive goes back 5 years and is lower than those.

It's very important to know that at this time Jimmy has not been hit with a position.... Only a general NEFT.

My biggest curiosity is what is the NEFT for WR? If the EFT-WR is 12.3, could the NEFT-WR be near the 9.5m mark?

Utah_Saint 03-02-2014 10:33 AM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 580272)
Is my math incorrect or does he actually not take more snaps at slot than TE? He ran 538 routes only 268 in the slot. 134 targets 67 @ slot.

I haven't actually seen the stats. I took the break down from a Mike Triplett story.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, Graham lined up as a receiver on 67 percent of his snaps in 2013 (45 percent in the slot, 22 percent out wide, 33 percent as an in-line tight end).

GM says New Orleans Saints will tag Jimmy Graham if necessary - ESPN

I've seen that same line quoted in a couple other stories.

And this Profootballtalk article mentions stats from PFF.

Saints, Graham almost certainly headed for franchise-tag fight | ProFootballTalk

ScottF 03-02-2014 12:48 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
On another note, assuming JG is considered a TE...
what was the effect of Aaron Hernandez's contract being voided? I think he was the 2nd or 3rd highest paid TE- around $8m annual. Wouldn't that lower the TE number?

jeanpierre 03-02-2014 12:54 PM

Re: Jimmy Graham demanding 12 million per season?
 
Remember the reasoning for lumping the LT and RT together was that some teams had left handed quarterbacks - Steve Young and Mark Brunell are who come to mind...

And it was the "blindside" protectors of the QB that were targeted for compensation...


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