KC beat us and we still won...

JKool · 11-15-2004, 05:03 PM

Good points all around.

However, before we continue to discuss what counts as winning versus not losing, I suggest that someone give a criterion (or criteria) for how we distinguish between the two. This way we can check it, rather than repeating yes-no over and over again.

mutineer10 · 11-15-2004, 07:00 PM

:sulkoff:

Man, just got back from a fun, long weekend in N.O. and looks like nothin\'s changed! Welcome back to the hornets nest...

No, the win wasn\'t pretty, but it was the cherry on top of a good few days. I saw a few paper sacks, but they disappeared after halftime. There were some of the same old bad decisions: only 6 carries for Deuce at the half, the Saints coming out throwing (and continuing to throw, badly) when Deuce was averaging about 10 YPC. You\'ve all read this crap already so I don\'t need to rehash it.

But it\'s a valid point that nothing about a W says it has to look like Britney Spears, and a lotta teams have won ugly over the years ... and continue to. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Ravens, but they get it done. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Bears, but they\'re starting to win. Yeah, I know they\'re getting it done with D, but they\'re doing it.

At the risk of sounding too much like a \"sunshiner,\" there\'s still 7 games left in the season. We\'re 4-5. Would it really be so horrible if we staggered our way into the playoffs? Once there, all you gotta do is win one-at-a-time, and they ain\'t gotta be pretty, either.

If we don\'t wanna win, or are unhappy when we do, why the heck are we wasting our time on here talking about it? If I didn\'t care, I\'d find a better way to spend my time...

Saintsfan4ever · 11-15-2004, 07:30 PM

First of all ... I`m a Saints fan ..... I`m happy with the win, but I`m very disappointed and frustrated with the season as a whole thus far.

Secondly, it just frustrates me to no end to watch an opposing QB stand in the pocket with no pressure and pick off our defensive coverage for big gains. Why cant we bring pressure? why? When the the front 5 is not getting it done, we MUST BLITZ.

If you think we`re going to win games down the stretch playing like our defense played against KC then your just delusional.

I hope I`m wrong.... but I doubt it.

saintswhodi · 11-15-2004, 07:51 PM

With all that being said, mutineer, one question. Haven\'t we seen this before? Haven\'t we seen 9-7 and 8-8 and 7-9 for the past three years? Haven\'t we seen us not make the playoffs with these records? Haven\'t we seen what a draft pick in the high teens does for us? Leaves us a shot at nothing. Had we been 6-10 last year instead of 8-8, we would have DJ Johnson right now. So if I understand correctly, you guys want this again? And the playoffs, why does anyone want this? On the road in Philly or Green Bay on the winter? We aren\'t that good in our home dome let alone on the road with playoffs intensity out in the elements. And then we are picking in the 20s. Someone tell me an impact player we can draft there. Come on ya\'ll. We have seen this before. If you stick your hand on a hot stove, do you keep doing it expecting it not to burn you every time?

I think what is being misunderstood is I am not down on the SAINTS, cause they are in my soul. I am down on Haslett and his crew ruining this team and am willing to take all sacrifices to make them disappear.

mutineer10 · 11-15-2004, 08:11 PM

With all that being said, mutineer, one question. Haven\'t we seen this before? Haven\'t we seen 9-7 and 8-8 and 7-9 for the past three years? Haven\'t we seen us not make the playoffs with these records? Haven\'t we seen what a draft pick in the high teens does for us?

Hey, you said one question!!!

I\'m kidding, and if my post was a little harsh or sounded like a personal attack, that wasn\'t my intention.

But god yes, over my 20-or-more years as a Saints fan, I\'ve sure seen enough 7-9\'s, 8-8\'s & 9-7\'s. I most certainly and sullenly agree with that one...

One argument I could make is that, if we do get a high draft pick, who\'s to say we\'d actually capitalize on it? Sully\'s the most glaring example of what we did last time we picked high (whatever the circumstances). I\'ll take a few more Courtney Watsons, Mike Karneys, etc. over another pick like that. And even if we do ship out Haz & Co., Loomis will likely still be around to lend an incapable hand on draft day.

I wasn\'t \"blowing sunshine (sic Danno),\" I\'m just taking the old \"wait and see\" approach. Meanwhile, I\'m gonna enjoy the win...

RockyMountainSaint · 11-15-2004, 08:20 PM

11 Derrick Johnson, LB
Height: 6-4
Weight: 220

Team: Texas Longhorns
Class: Senior

My two cents.
This guy is MEAN!
He has GREAT football instincts.
He is a gamer.
Good character by all accounts too.

saintswhodi · 11-15-2004, 08:39 PM

If we could be in a position to draft him, with Watson, holy crap.

mutineer,

I did not take any of it as a personal attack. This is a website, I would not take anything personal on here. ButI am pretty sure once Haslett and Co. are gone not too many more drafts will be botched like Sully. Some of the guys at the top of this draft are no brainers. Hell, I would take Mike Williams and we don\'t even need offense. That guy is gonna be awesome.

JKool · 11-15-2004, 08:42 PM

SF4ever,

If the front five are involved, then we\'re already blitzing - since that is one person greater than the usual pass rush. I\'m not going to rehash this here, but \"just blitz, baby\" is NOT on its own a solution to the problem of the QB getting too much time. Obviously, there are different kinds of blitzes, some of which will make us much worse off in our weakest area - run stopping. Blitzing must be well considered and well timed.

Whodi,

I\'ve got to disagree with you on the \"just lose, baby\" strategy. First, I think at this point Haz is gone at the end of the year no matter the outcome of our season. Sure, I\'d like to see him go sooner, but not at the cost of taking losses. Here is an argument (which I just wrote in another thread): losing generates several problems - players give up and want to jump ship, it is harder to sign FA to a team with a losing attitude, this will give players the idea that their year is worthless (making individual achievements meaningless, inspire a negative attitude in general, and reinforce the idea that each game is not that important for rookies and young players), among other things. The damage of not trying to win (or stringing a bunch of half hearted losses together) will have a serious impact on our team for the course of the next few years - you would risk that for a slightly higher draft pick and a coaching change (that looks like it\'ll happen either way)?

I guess, I just am not seeing a very compelling argument for breaking the spirit of the players who still have some. And, don\'t go telling me they don\'t have any spirit to lose (as I know you wouldn\'t, but I\'m sure there are other who might). I saw a bunch of guys doing their best to win against a better team, coming in as huge underdogs, and playing to the very end (including two big defensive plays right at the end of the game).

saintswhodi · 11-15-2004, 08:56 PM

When looking at the draft and free agents Kool, I look at Marvin Lewis in Cincy. Players wanna go there now cause they have a new regime change. You think people won\'t wanna play with Denny Green in Arizona? Some players wanna play for money, some play for teams that have a chance at winning. In free agency I have noticed good players towards the end of their careers tend to go for winning while younger good guys go for money. Hell, Jeff Garcia went to the Browns, and he was a pro bowl qb. The Browns??? I am not buying the if we lose we won\'t get free agents argument cause in recent years it hasn\'t held true for losing teams that made significant changes.

And as for players not wanting to play for a sorry team, how long has San Diego been bad? They had no reason to believe before the season they would be any better yet LT signed a contract extension with them. The best rb in football. So I am unable to agree with either of your arguments, good as they were.

JKool · 11-15-2004, 09:50 PM

Whodi,

Well put, I\'ll have to consider your points further.

It does seem to me that you\'re right that if we change up our coaching AND get someone good in here, that our FA will not be effected.

I don\'t think LT is sufficient to make your point there, but that is a fine fine example.

We, however, were unable to attract several free agents the last two years because of the way things have been going here. Thus, that is a count toward my point - though, I will grant, also inconclusive.

Also, SD was unable to land the player they wanted, before he through a stink about going there, in this year\'s draft. Thus, I understand your disagreement, but there seems to be evidence on both sides at this particular point.

11-15-2004, 05:03 PM	#21
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	KC beat us and we still won... Good points all around. However, before we continue to discuss what counts as winning versus not losing, I suggest that someone give a criterion (or criteria) for how we distinguish between the two. This way we can check it, rather than repeating yes-no over and over again.

11-15-2004, 07:00 PM	#22
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	KC beat us and we still won... :sulkoff: Man, just got back from a fun, long weekend in N.O. and looks like nothin\'s changed! Welcome back to the hornets nest... No, the win wasn\'t pretty, but it was the cherry on top of a good few days. I saw a few paper sacks, but they disappeared after halftime. There were some of the same old bad decisions: only 6 carries for Deuce at the half, the Saints coming out throwing (and continuing to throw, badly) when Deuce was averaging about 10 YPC. You\'ve all read this crap already so I don\'t need to rehash it. But it\'s a valid point that nothing about a W says it has to look like Britney Spears, and a lotta teams have won ugly over the years ... and continue to. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Ravens, but they get it done. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Bears, but they\'re starting to win. Yeah, I know they\'re getting it done with D, but they\'re doing it. At the risk of sounding too much like a \"sunshiner,\" there\'s still 7 games left in the season. We\'re 4-5. Would it really be so horrible if we staggered our way into the playoffs? Once there, all you gotta do is win one-at-a-time, and they ain\'t gotta be pretty, either. If we don\'t wanna win, or are unhappy when we do, why the heck are we wasting our time on here talking about it? If I didn\'t care, I\'d find a better way to spend my time...

11-15-2004, 07:30 PM	#23
Saintsfan4ever 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Moss Point, MS Posts: 612 Blog Entries: 1	KC beat us and we still won... First of all ... I`m a Saints fan ..... I`m happy with the win, but I`m very disappointed and frustrated with the season as a whole thus far. Secondly, it just frustrates me to no end to watch an opposing QB stand in the pocket with no pressure and pick off our defensive coverage for big gains. Why cant we bring pressure? why? When the the front 5 is not getting it done, we MUST BLITZ. If you think we`re going to win games down the stretch playing like our defense played against KC then your just delusional. I hope I`m wrong.... but I doubt it.
	Saint4

11-15-2004, 07:51 PM	#24
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	KC beat us and we still won... With all that being said, mutineer, one question. Haven\'t we seen this before? Haven\'t we seen 9-7 and 8-8 and 7-9 for the past three years? Haven\'t we seen us not make the playoffs with these records? Haven\'t we seen what a draft pick in the high teens does for us? Leaves us a shot at nothing. Had we been 6-10 last year instead of 8-8, we would have DJ Johnson right now. So if I understand correctly, you guys want this again? And the playoffs, why does anyone want this? On the road in Philly or Green Bay on the winter? We aren\'t that good in our home dome let alone on the road with playoffs intensity out in the elements. And then we are picking in the 20s. Someone tell me an impact player we can draft there. Come on ya\'ll. We have seen this before. If you stick your hand on a hot stove, do you keep doing it expecting it not to burn you every time? I think what is being misunderstood is I am not down on the SAINTS, cause they are in my soul. I am down on Haslett and his crew ruining this team and am willing to take all sacrifices to make them disappear.

11-15-2004, 08:11 PM	#25
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	KC beat us and we still won... With all that being said, mutineer, one question. Haven\'t we seen this before? Haven\'t we seen 9-7 and 8-8 and 7-9 for the past three years? Haven\'t we seen us not make the playoffs with these records? Haven\'t we seen what a draft pick in the high teens does for us? Hey, you said one question!!! I\'m kidding, and if my post was a little harsh or sounded like a personal attack, that wasn\'t my intention. But god yes, over my 20-or-more years as a Saints fan, I\'ve sure seen enough 7-9\'s, 8-8\'s & 9-7\'s. I most certainly and sullenly agree with that one... One argument I could make is that, if we do get a high draft pick, who\'s to say we\'d actually capitalize on it? Sully\'s the most glaring example of what we did last time we picked high (whatever the circumstances). I\'ll take a few more Courtney Watsons, Mike Karneys, etc. over another pick like that. And even if we do ship out Haz & Co., Loomis will likely still be around to lend an incapable hand on draft day. I wasn\'t \"blowing sunshine (sic Danno),\" I\'m just taking the old \"wait and see\" approach. Meanwhile, I\'m gonna enjoy the win...

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11-15-2004, 08:20 PM	#26
RockyMountainSaint Mmm That Smell! Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Metairie Terrace Posts: 3,073	KC beat us and we still won... 11 Derrick Johnson, LB Height: 6-4 Weight: 220 Team: Texas Longhorns Class: Senior My two cents. This guy is MEAN! He has GREAT football instincts. He is a gamer. Good character by all accounts too.

11-15-2004, 08:39 PM	#27
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	KC beat us and we still won... If we could be in a position to draft him, with Watson, holy crap. mutineer, I did not take any of it as a personal attack. This is a website, I would not take anything personal on here. ButI am pretty sure once Haslett and Co. are gone not too many more drafts will be botched like Sully. Some of the guys at the top of this draft are no brainers. Hell, I would take Mike Williams and we don\'t even need offense. That guy is gonna be awesome.

11-15-2004, 08:42 PM	#28
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	KC beat us and we still won... SF4ever, If the front five are involved, then we\'re already blitzing - since that is one person greater than the usual pass rush. I\'m not going to rehash this here, but \"just blitz, baby\" is NOT on its own a solution to the problem of the QB getting too much time. Obviously, there are different kinds of blitzes, some of which will make us much worse off in our weakest area - run stopping. Blitzing must be well considered and well timed. Whodi, I\'ve got to disagree with you on the \"just lose, baby\" strategy. First, I think at this point Haz is gone at the end of the year no matter the outcome of our season. Sure, I\'d like to see him go sooner, but not at the cost of taking losses. Here is an argument (which I just wrote in another thread): losing generates several problems - players give up and want to jump ship, it is harder to sign FA to a team with a losing attitude, this will give players the idea that their year is worthless (making individual achievements meaningless, inspire a negative attitude in general, and reinforce the idea that each game is not that important for rookies and young players), among other things. The damage of not trying to win (or stringing a bunch of half hearted losses together) will have a serious impact on our team for the course of the next few years - you would risk that for a slightly higher draft pick and a coaching change (that looks like it\'ll happen either way)? I guess, I just am not seeing a very compelling argument for breaking the spirit of the players who still have some. And, don\'t go telling me they don\'t have any spirit to lose (as I know you wouldn\'t, but I\'m sure there are other who might). I saw a bunch of guys doing their best to win against a better team, coming in as huge underdogs, and playing to the very end (including two big defensive plays right at the end of the game).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

11-15-2004, 08:56 PM	#29
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	KC beat us and we still won... When looking at the draft and free agents Kool, I look at Marvin Lewis in Cincy. Players wanna go there now cause they have a new regime change. You think people won\'t wanna play with Denny Green in Arizona? Some players wanna play for money, some play for teams that have a chance at winning. In free agency I have noticed good players towards the end of their careers tend to go for winning while younger good guys go for money. Hell, Jeff Garcia went to the Browns, and he was a pro bowl qb. The Browns??? I am not buying the if we lose we won\'t get free agents argument cause in recent years it hasn\'t held true for losing teams that made significant changes. And as for players not wanting to play for a sorry team, how long has San Diego been bad? They had no reason to believe before the season they would be any better yet LT signed a contract extension with them. The best rb in football. So I am unable to agree with either of your arguments, good as they were.

11-15-2004, 09:50 PM	#30
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	KC beat us and we still won... Whodi, Well put, I\'ll have to consider your points further. It does seem to me that you\'re right that if we change up our coaching AND get someone good in here, that our FA will not be effected. I don\'t think LT is sufficient to make your point there, but that is a fine fine example. We, however, were unable to attract several free agents the last two years because of the way things have been going here. Thus, that is a count toward my point - though, I will grant, also inconclusive. Also, SD was unable to land the player they wanted, before he through a stink about going there, in this year\'s draft. Thus, I understand your disagreement, but there seems to be evidence on both sides at this particular point.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks